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Making Status Relevant


Arcsyrine
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I'm not sure this is in the right section as I couldn't see a feedback section for enemies. (Which should probably exist)

I feel like even with the upcoming status changes crit will still be king for one reason. Status Immune Enemies. I think Warframe relies on status immune enemies to much as a difficulty increase where the only option is crit.

In paticular the sentients that we are going to be fighting in the upcoming operation, and are currently fighting in the Veil, suffer from this. There is no other way to kill them except to DPS them to death. And spoiler mode doesn't do enough damage to deal with them at any significant level.

When you start damaging them they have no resistances and as such I feel should not be immune to status at that point. I don't think status effects should be infinitely stackable on them and their should be a limit on how many types of effects they can experience at once. But the option to have a status relevant build for Sentients should be allowed. Perhaps make them only status immune to the damage types they have developed resistances to?

Maybe make them 50% resistant to all effects as well? Or for damage dealing status like heat and slash cap the damage at percentage of their total health, like 5%. That way they can't be instant killed with a single heavy sythe attack.

Blast effects may just be a pushback and attack interupt. Impact could be just an pushback. Radiation could turn on friendly fire but not actively make others target them. Electric could be a very short stun.

To prevent stunlocking they could have a period of cooldown on how often they could be stuned / interupted.

I believe that this would also help make non-DPS Warframes more viable against them. In lore all warframes were created to fight them and as such they should all be able to contribute to killing them.

The same could be done for Liches or any status immune enemies. Maybe barring bosses as status effects could trivialize them more than some of them already are.

Up until now we have only encountered Sentients at relativley low levels or in small numbers which kind of act like a mini boss. With the addition on the Veil Anomalies, you have essentially created a level filled with nothing but bosses. I dread to think of how we will deal with hoards of them in the upcoming New War.

Ultimately I think that there needs to be a balance between added challenge and the ability to play how we want. You said you wanted to make status just as viable as crit to give us choice, but there still won't be a choice so long as there are Status Immune Enemies in the game.

Thank you for your time. I love this game and you guys do an awesome job at it!

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I tired to find a list of status immune enemies, but could not. From what I know, some bosses and some liches are status immune. If that is all, then who the hell says crit is king for just a handful of special casses. Cases of which you should be changing your setup to deal with easier anyways. 

From my experience, status is much stronger than crit at endgame, on mobs over 100. The only exceptions would be the crit immune bosses. 

I have to be missing something with so many people saying status isn't good and with DE wanting to buff status. 

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2 hours ago, Zebiko said:

I tired to find a list of status immune enemies, but could not. From what I know, some bosses and some liches are status immune. If that is all, then who the hell says crit is king for just a handful of special casses. Cases of which you should be changing your setup to deal with easier anyways. 

Status chance only has 1 damage modifier which is highly dependent on health/armor/shield types and we all know how fun it is to go thru the needle of what could be between 2 to 3 types o health/armor/shields on certain enemy types.

Critical chance even before the advent of riven mods could have its critical damage boosted. Now with Riven mods that value can get more absurd such as laying orange and red crits, effectively doubling whatever your crit dmg modifier is. Which we are not even getting into things like kavat buffs, blood rush and so on. The whole Crit is king meme just works because status chance never had its own BEYOND value besides status procs which as you stated, are pretty much useless against most boss case enemies outside of armor stripping in the earlier types.

Then D.E. has to ruin status chance even further by cramming in more and more boss types that are straight up immune to status procs.

Of course, unless D.E. boosts the gain value of status chances, this whole multi-proc or enhanced proc system is honestly going to not really change anything at all.

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From my experience, status is much stronger than crit at endgame, on mobs over 100. The only exceptions would be the crit immune bosses. 

Thats mainly because of status CHANCE against mobs, not status DAMAGE, you are getting a fixed damage bonus which of course is going to taper off like everything else. But thats more specifically Slash because true damage & infinite stacking abuse, viral cause cutting max health in half will yeet anything not already chocked full of armor and Corrosive cause even if D.E. fixes high level armor, its still going to be the go-to option to yeet that 30~70% early D.R. from the 300~800 or so base armor enemies will still have easily due to enemy level scaling.

Also very sure there is no such thing as CRIT IMMUNE BOSS, only cases of such i recall is when your shooting infested pods or similar instances, where the structure has this weird neutral against all damage types @#&$-n-balls.

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I have to be missing something with so many people saying status isn't good and with DE wanting to buff status. 

Well if there were not so many status types, plus all status types need some kind of infinite scaling bonus, just like how cold will slow down enemies, slash can stack bleed ticks, corrosive strip armor and gas can technically stack toxin clouds (even if its still not that better over viral & corrosive). Then the fiasco would be kind of a bit more manageable, especially since things like Blast, Radiation, Magnetic and Gas are honestly kind of screwed in alot of cases unless your using it for the most niche of content and/or most niche of setups.

 

 

Small extra funfact: A Ninkondi Prime with a whooping 36% status chance base, would need no less then 3 gold 60% status chance mods just to barely break 100% status chance at 100.8%. So for any weapon to achieve a respectable enough over-status bonus, its going to need a build completely dedicated to an elemental setup and since multi shot is going to be not so intertwined with status chance reading, thats certainly going to be so hard that i feel like D.E. will need to buff quite a few weapons base status chances to make this over-status chance thing possible at all.

Edited by Avienas
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2 hours ago, Zebiko said:

I tired to find a list of status immune enemies, but could not.

Just wondering if you read my post regarding the Sentients? All of them are currently status immune, which is the main topic of the post.

No there aren't a lot of them at the moment, until you enter the anomaly in the void. Even then it's only around 20 or so if I remember correctly. I am more concerned with the upcoming operation against them and the New War in general. Hordes of status immune enemies kinda make status irrelevant, which is the opposite direction DE is trying to go with the next update.

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I agree completely.  Nothing should be outright immune to everything.  Lichs could keep status immunity to elements they are immune to, but that's it.  Sentinents immune to elements they are rotating into, but that's it.  

We pay price for rainbow builds with amount of mods that fit, and selection of auras, etc.  Dedicating to a certain build should not gimp you from certain enemy types!

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29 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Easy, reduce the nerf of Condition Overload. Status melee suddenly becomes viable again.

condition overload only works on melee

condition overload only works on eniems efected by status

almost all bosses, some elite unites and an entire faction r immune to status 

even if condition overload gave 1,000,000% more damage it would still do nothing to those enemies and only applies to melee in the first place

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13 hours ago, Zebiko said:

I have to be missing something with so many people saying status isn't good and with DE wanting to buff status. 

it's not that it isn't good, it's just that over the past couple years most of the new Enemy Types, have been immune to Status. Enemies which aren't just reskins of existing ones, the ones that are actually new, are generally immune to Status Effects.

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6 hours ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

condition overload only works on melee

condition overload only works on eniems efected by status

almost all bosses, some elite unites and an entire faction r immune to status 

even if condition overload gave 1,000,000% more damage it would still do nothing to those enemies and only applies to melee in the first place

Ok, but right now it’s literally useless.

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It works well on my Nezha for high-level non-boss enemies, I.e. anything I expect to have to chip away at a bit, which comes a bit past 30 minutes in Arbitration. It is not a small factor that they're all already on fire before I start hitting them, because Nezha. 

But yeah, a stronger or weaker CO doesn't make a lick of difference to status immune enemies, and OP's idea of having status effects apply in a weakened form instead of complete immunity for these enemy types would be addressing the core problem there. It doesn't make sense to just remove status as a mechanic for some portion of encounters. 

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For status immune enemies (Sentients) over level 100 my only real option to deal more than a sliver of damage is my crit built Rubico, that has a crit multiplier riven. Even a fully modded Arca Plasmor doesn't really do much. Even using a 100% damage increase Roar on Rhino with the Plasmor doesn't compare to the un-Roar-buffed Rubico. It would be nice to have some choices and build diversity when fighting them, as opposed to being funnelled into very specific builds if you want to kill them in less than a few minutes each.

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17 hours ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

condition overload only works on melee

condition overload only works on eniems efected by status

almost all bosses, some elite unites and an entire faction r immune to status 

even if condition overload gave 1,000,000% more damage it would still do nothing to those enemies and only applies to melee in the first place

Plus buffing  CO benefits a lot of extremely strong crit builds which are already using it or would start doing so.

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1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Plus buffing  CO benefits a lot of extremely strong crit builds which are already using it or would start doing so.

Which again in all honesty, is why i would like a overhaul of status in general, repeated it many times but here`s a condensed list of the various things i stated:

  • Condense or scrap dual status effects. Most are not even used for thar status procs (Blast, Radiation, Magnetic) and most just for damage advantage. Easiest way would just be to straight up remove dual status types, merge some of thar effects into single types and buff some damage numbers, so the simply left 4 are a matter of either focusing on one element for maximum impact against one enemy type or run double to deal with two types of enemies or to have them double layer against a enemy with particular elements, such as using Electric & Toxin for Corpus or Heat & Cold against grineer.

 

  • Redesign how status chances work, aka the TRAUMA & Intensity system i have suggested many times over. Basically no such thing as status chance, but instead as you hit a enemy with a certain damage type they build up some kind of damage type TRAUMA gauge done to them, Which would come in the form of DoT & a build up-type debuff like how slash bleed will stack up or armor stripping build up that Corrosive does right now, Which as it reached certain thresholds it could start procing things like heat`s panick, cold`s freezing, etc. etc. and finally once that TRAUMA is filled up a powerful effect results in it, where in Corrosive`s case could be the enemy`s remaining armor could get instantly yeeted off and maybe that erroded armor fragments  could hit nearby enemies, causing a good proc o corrosive trauma on nearby enemies too of it. Which ultimately it would be controlled by a new intensify system where attacks with more impact could build it up a whole lot faster per hit while weapons with low damage per bullet (or hit speed for melee) would rely on rapid fire or high-hit counts to build it up quickly.

 

  • But before all that, which i hope i heard correctly in the last dev stream, that they would give some overhauls on alot of elemental types so they start having STACKING effects in some way to make the less useful ones stand out more. Preferably i would like Magnetic able to disrupt robots & YEET shields and even abilities like nullifier bubbles, blast able to make enemies become rattled from an explosion that they cant do any actions for a while and Viral to get a little more to it like maybe be able to spread to nearby enemies like some kind of air-borne contagion or can stack to rip additional max health while being continuously re-proced.

HECK, that 2nd idea of mine actually applies as a way to make condition overload GREAT again, by allowing all enemies to receive status effects but the stuff that normally is status immune would only really get the DoT of the trauma that would likely not be able to build up to allow the status procs, but could still allow interactions that require status effects to be present on a enemy.

Edited by Avienas
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In the latest dev workshop post, the part 2 review one, they said

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1172232-2020’s-first-mainline-review-revise-refresh-part-2/

"Our long-term goal with this change is to build upon this series of changes to allow Status to impact bigger threats like Liches and Eidolons and not just have blanket Immunity."

So hopefully this will apply to all enemies, like the Sentients, that are status immune.

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