Warframe Revised: Armor, Health & Shield Changes Megathread

[master_of_destiny]

35 minutes ago, GKP_light said:

"Graphic of by how much the HP are multiply, depending of the level."

So horizontally, the level ; and vertically, how much the base HP are multiply.

The scale is write on the axis.

(and they don't come from the devstream)

for a Infested, HP=EHP

for the Corpus, you have to add the shield. (except if you use Toxin)

for the Greener, you multiply by the armor.

 

OK, let me ask you some further questions.

 

Is 600 the multiple, or is the multiple 6?  You see, a scale of 0-600 could be a difference of 0 versus 60,000 if the scale is stated as thousands.  Likewise the two graphs are what?  Is the left the scale and the right sample values?  If it is, then the HP is a functional constant as graphed (as it is impossible to tell from the scale).  If it's a graph of HP added for the levels, then we have a very different story.

Without axis labels your graph is useless.  That's a trick to make people think you understand things, and you could hide a lot of information with some clever labels.  I'm not suggesting that you are intentionally, but clarity in communicating data is not present at this time.  

 

I'm going to refer back to my previous statement regarding all of this.  EHP is the only value that matters.  DE demonstrated that an HP or Armor buff can easily be obliterated by the other stat being changed.  Just showing us health is not useful.

Regarding all of this, the armor function equations are quite clear, and DE has not said this would change.  Despite this, I've seen no clear equation they are using for the new armor levels, which depending upon its range of highest variability may mean our average enemies do take a lot more damage even if the level 100+ don't feel like sponges any more.

[SadOverlord]

7 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

I'm going to refer back to my previous statement regarding all of this.  EHP is the only value that matters.  DE demonstrated that an HP or Armor buff can easily be obliterated by the other stat egarding all of this, the armor function equations are quite clear, and DE has not said this would change.  Despite this, I've seen no clear equation they are using for the new armor levels, which depending upon its range of highest variability may mean our average enemies do take a lot more damage even if the level 100+ don't feel like sponges any more.

The new armor equation multiplier, that is followed after level base level+80, is y=1+(0.45*(x - base level)^0.7), where x=current level. This graph is basically what was shown in the DevStream, the values in there are quite clear. The function is basically shown, if you look at the excel graph you can see the coefficient and the exponent. After getting the multiplier you need to multiply what you get with the base armor value.

So, for example, a CHG at base level has 500 armor, which means 62.5% damage reduction, or 2.6667x multiplier over health(500/800). At level 108 (100 levels after the base level), it has 12.303 times the base armor value, which results into a value of 500*12.303=6151.5 . The damage reduction in this case is 95.35%. Which results into a 21.5x multiplier over HP. This is why Slash/Viral, Corrosive and Heat were and will be always meta unless Armor becomes a flat value. If they can deal with Grineer (by ignoring partially or completely the inflated armor value), they can pretty much deal with the other factions. And the game will never be somewhat close to being balanced.

Edited March 8, 2020 by SadOverlord

[GKP_light]

Il y a 1 heure, master_of_destiny a dit :

Is 600 the multiple, or is the multiple 6?  You see, a scale of 0-600 could be a difference of 0 versus 60,000 if the scale is stated as thousands. 

if an enemies have 100 HP level 1, at the level 200, with the old formula, it will be *600, so 60 000 HP.

"Likewise the two graphs are what?" : the first is level 1 to 200, the 2nd is level 1 to 2000. both show the same things.

"Without axis labels your graph is useless." : the axis label are in the title of the graph, I think it’s clear enough. (if the  label are not on the graph, it is because i made the with pyplot, and and I would have needed to search the internet how to add them)

"Just showing us health is not useful." : know the health is an essential part of the EHP. (and armor is only for the greener. you can consider that what i say is about the infested if you want. have the health is enough for them.)

[Graive]

I'm loving the effort and forethought that went into these changes but additional tweaking is needed.

On warframes with shields, HP and its' armor reduction are unneeded entirely now. One of the first things I did when I started playing was to unnequip all my health and armor mods and go up against high lvled enemies (level 165). I noticed I was able to reliably survive against them. Coupled with the ridiculously high damage we can now deal because of the status changes, the game just felt far too easy. On the flip-side of my previous statement, when I tried not relying on shieldgating with warframes with shields and a moderate health and armor amount, I found the damage enemies dealt was obscene and no rate of health regeneration, armor amount, or last ditch efforts (quick thinking and hunter adrenaline)  helped to keep me from death. The only thing that mitigated damage was status immunity (so this fragility isn't really felt by Nidus or Inaros players). My conclusion is: We've replaced the armor/health/status-immunity meta with a shield/shield-regen-speed/status-immunity meta, eliminating the option for the player to choose between the two.

I'm unsure if enabling resistances again for warframes would help solve the situation, but it's the only change (aside from the status effect changes) I can think of that would have a hand in this issue.

Regarding enemy armor, they just feel far too easy to kill now. Perhaps it's viral damage, perhaps it's the scaling of their armor, but both together make most enemies a joke in the game now.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Graive

[master_of_destiny]

4 hours ago, SadOverlord said:

The new armor equation multiplier, that is followed after level base level+80, is y=1+(0.45*(x - base level)^0.7), where x=current level. This graph is basically what was shown in the DevStream, the values in there are quite clear. The function is basically shown, if you look at the excel graph you can see the coefficient and the exponent. After getting the multiplier you need to multiply what you get with the base armor value.

So, for example, a CHG at base level has 500 armor, which means 62.5% damage reduction, or 2.6667x multiplier over health(500/800). At level 108 (100 levels after the base level), it has 12.303 times the base armor value, which results into a value of 500*12.303=6151.5 . The damage reduction in this case is 0.9535%. Which results into a 21.5x multiplier over HP. This is why Slash/Viral, Corrosive and Heat were and will be always meta unless Armor becomes a flat value. If they can deal with Grineer (by ignoring partially or completely the inflated armor value), they can pretty much deal with the other factions. And the game will never be somewhat close to being balanced.

Much obliged.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

the issue wasnt the armor on enemies (dont lie tenno...)

it was the damage they did

now enemies r soo wiek that the game probably isnt fun anymore....

im on ps4 so i cant test any of the changes

[master_of_destiny]

Maybe I missed a step here.  Let's explain the basic assumptions.

1) HP still works as it did before.  The equation to determine what it is per level changed.  DE stated this, but never really provided and equation.

2) Armor still works as before.  DE never stated this was going to change.

3) EHP calculation functionally has therefore not changed.

4) The quoted s-curves for the new values of these things are accurate, and are the actual current systems after the update.

 

What has changed is how much armor and HP are added by level.  DE stated that they'd be using an s-curve (around the 23 minute mark in Dev stream 139).  This armor value will impact the growth of EHP, but without the equation to describe HP we're largely out of luck.

What about the other factions?  Well, the corpus have shields which functionally now act as an addition to HP, and the infested are purely HP.  Fine.  I don't really care, because it's the Grineer who offer the best current rewards for playing.  Yes, that's largely because the affinity gains from them are larger than any other faction when you compare a random blend of enemies at roughly the same count and levels.  The easiest proof of such is running Adaro, and comparing affinity gains.

 

What has been returned to this inquiry?  A graph supposedly showing HP, presumably as a deconstruction of tested HP values.  I'm suggesting this because it looks remarkably similar to what I saw on Reddit doing the same with level 9999 versus 100 enemies.  Should I assume that in a thread about HP, Armor, Shields, and by extension EHP.  No, I would be stupid for assuming this without data showing what it actually is.

So, let's be real.  I'm going to assume the HP graph is fine.  I'm going to assume that the armor damage reduction is accurate, because DE hasn't said it was changing.  Despite these assumptions, I don't have EHP calcuable because I still don't know where that S curve is responsive and where the two plateaus are.  DE has not released this information, and only showed us a blended armor value during a stream.  A blended value they can still mess with, that literally leaves us with nothing but questions.

Why is this a priority?  Well, Railjack again.  The enemies there get to the 80-90 range, and they've already demonstrated the ability to tank a critical hit from an Opticor Vandal to the face multiple times before going down.  What does this tell us?  Very little.  My point is that what we have to work with is pretty useless from what has been provided.  Even the graphs created, with the eventual understanding of what is being shown, give us nothing to work with.  If the HP equation is an S-curve the interesting bit is where the response is highest, not where DE has deadened the response.  That's kind of the point of the S-curve, have a region of high response and the ends have very little response.

 

With all of the above, DE should release an EHP curve and confirm the equations for HP, Armor, and Shields.  If everything was an s-curve as stated, it would literally allow us to pinpoint where the difficulty walls are and how to control the grind.  Imagine for a moment knowing that you should only go to level 49 enemies, because thereafter each level's response made the enemies disproportionately stronger.  Of course, it'd also give us the chance to check what is actually in-game.  That would mean changes could be found very quickly, if they're stealth changing things to balance.  I hope DE trusts us enough to be open, hence my issues with someone pulling a graph with no source and no axis data.

[GKP_light]

Il y a 9 heures, Graive a dit :

Regarding enemy armor, they just feel far too easy to kill now. Perhaps it's viral damage, perhaps it's the scaling of their armor, but both together make most enemies a joke in the game now.

the goal of reduce the scaling of armor make than the greener not be stronger than the other faction ; and make that 4 corrosive projection is not indispensable.

it is a good things.

 

the problem is to reduce the HP scaling.

(and yes, the viral is op, it make things even easier)

[SadOverlord]

The HP scaling is not the issue for now. The fact armor scales is the issue.

[Nocthmyst]

Will there be any Damage Type effectiveness changes after this?

[Gailus]

It feels like the Corpus units are still too squishy to run specific gear for. They aren't cheesed by Gas anymore, but I can still gun through hordes of level 150-160 Corpus units before reloading using a Corrosive & Heat Kuva Karak that can only take out a handful of Grineer in a clip.

They are definitely better off than they were. But using Magnetic isn't going to be a consideration unless shields actually mean something.

It could be a bit overboard, but maybe consider letting the Corpus shield regeneration rate scale up like the Grineer's armor damage reduction.

[MBaldelli]

On 2020-03-05 at 6:00 PM, BadgerAmongMen said:

Many elements were made worthless by these changes, but that hardly matters now because this removed any sense of difficulty from the game.

 

This is including Magnetic which is supposed to disrupt shields (pardon the flat out copy & pastes, we on the wiki figured this out prior to the changes):

 Magnetic damage's status effect is Disrupt, amplifying damage dealt to shields by 100% and nullifies shield regeneration for 6 seconds. Subsequent procs add 5% increased damage to shields up to 325% in total after 10 stacks, with each proc having their own duration.

Did you -- DE -- not say that Magnetic was less utilized because of the heavy reliance on Corrosive Damage?  Aren't you in essence cutting off your nose to spite your face by making all elemental/status type damages superfluous because of that heavy reliance? 

However in its current state, it seems inconsistent as to how damage is being reduced on Corpus given that if there's singles to duos on patrol in an area, I can one-shot them with the Cernos doing a consistent yellow crit at 1,000 damage on planets from Phobos and out (thereby hitting the same spot on the body) when it comes to MOAs.  But on Jupiter, Europa, Neptune and Pluto -- if there's more than 4 in the area it became much like a saving roll in a table top RPG (like AD&D) where one of the targets is consistently making a saving throw.  And yes, this is all MOAs, the standard (green) ones seem to be the most consistent about the saving throw as they seem to have shields being telegraphed among them.  

Scrambus on the other hand are a different matter, which I'll cover in the next section.  

Further I see this:  

 Impact damage's status effect is Stagger, causing enemies to flinch and recoil backwards. Subsequent procs eventually culminate into  Knockdown after 5 stacks. However, Ospreys, Bosses and Tenno are immune.

Scrambus however seems to follow this rule and while they're not knocked down, they are also not activating their nullification auras (a win-win in my book).  MOAs on the other hand are routinely making the necessary saving throw almost instantly and seem to fire after only 1 second of pause no matter the situation and never stagger when using weapons like the Cernos, Cernos Prime and Rakta Cernos.  

I also get the impression that the Cernos/Impact line of Bows is suffering from some sort of falloff (in spite of the fact that there is nothing listed within the arsenal) as I noticed more consistency about damage and targets surviving a one-shot the farther the target is away from my warframe's location.  But this doesn't explain how MOAs and Scrambus (but never the various more fleshy Corpus targets) often survive being one-shot at less than 5 meters away other than theorizing that shields are miraculously being telegraphed to the group when no Shield Osprey are within range.  

Overall, I know this is a work-in-progress and I know that when DE gets back from the weekend, they'll be looking at their reports to figure out what needs to be improved. 

Edited March 8, 2020 by MBaldelli
double negatives are a no go.

[SadOverlord]

Daily reminder that Armor needs to actually be a flat value.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

7 minutes ago, SadOverlord said:

Daily reminder that Armor needs to actually be a flat value.

No it doesn’t. Enemy ehp is a joke now

[SadOverlord]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

No it doesn’t. Enemy ehp is a joke now

You make armor a flat value, then you start balancing the actual damage and enemy HP values. You can't balance a game when a faction has more than 15 times the EHP of the others.

[Sylonus]

On 2020-03-05 at 12:05 PM, SprinKah said:

We mostly just shoot them in the head or use Gas in the end anyway.

Uhm, Gas doesn't create toxin procs that bypass shields anymore. Have to go straight toxin now.

[(PSN)Xerithx]

When is this coming out on ps4?

[kwlingo]

I still see red life bars. Does this mean 100% armor stripping in still a thing?

[ArcusVeles]

Railjack got a nerf to its shield gating (1 second now, down from 3), but none of the benefits (no 25% DR to all elements, still a 5 second shield charge delay at base).  Please fix.  Same thing happened to Hildryn, not sure if that one's intended, though.

EDIT:  Also, none of them show the gray bar with the shield symbol over it to show you when your're shield gated any more.  That was actually pretty useful to have, even if it's only a one second effect now.

Edited March 9, 2020 by ArcusVeles

[CopperBezel]

Overall, I think I like the durability changes on the player side, because playing Nova without Vitality, Quick Thinking, or Adaptation sure leaves a lot of mod space open for fun things. I don't feel invincible, my health is just rubberbanding less. 

Enemies are definitely feeling a bit too squishy, though it's possible that's entirely attributable to Viral being a bit OP. It's kind of a universal answer right now, with a damage type that has few disadvantages and some big advantages, and a wildly powerful proc that works on everything.

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

On 2020-03-05 at 1:13 PM, Redfeather75 said:

I don't know where to put this. I'm using hystrix and fire quills are doing better CC and damage against robots than electric quills.

edit: Electric seems to be good for people as the shock makes them stand with their head back which is good for headshots. I am not sure why robots are dying faster to heat quills than electric ones.

Electric Quils don't add electric damage to anything but the proc, right? Heat procs last longer.

[SprinKah]

5 hours ago, Sylonus said:

Uhm, Gas doesn't create toxin procs that bypass shields anymore. Have to go straight toxin now.

wait...WHAT, that's kinda dumb...

[Monolake]

The mobs are total pushovers even at very high level because HP barely scales now.  The game was aleardy super easy but despite large part of playerbase repeatedly asking for challenge and 'endgame' you made it even easier and made even lvl1000+ a joke. Easy-mode player never play long endless anyway, you only made the game worse for those who liked the challenge.

[CopperBezel]

Unrelatedly:

On 2020-03-02 at 11:29 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Now Players have their own unique Shield, Health, and Armor type classified as TENNO! These have all weaknesses and resistances neutralized (for now).

This change makes a great deal of sense, since health types are about variety in the effective damage of damage types against enemies and all frames are the same type, making it irrelevant. The only variation that existed previously was our relative amounts of shields, health, and armor, since Corpus Puncture and Infested Toxin bypassed a percentage of our armor, Grineer Impact was more effective against our shields, etc. Just having our armor as an immutable health multiplier and shields as raw health points - with the 25% DR on shields normalizing them to our minimum 100 armor base, so that health points are always worth at least one shield point but aren't always worth more than one point of shield as they were - all makes perfect sense. 

Buuuuuuut

Wouldn't it be cool if individual frames had elemental resistances and vulnerabilities? Like Nezha or Ember might resist 50% of heat damage but take +25% from cold, Oberon might resist Radiation or Toxin, etc.? It might increase the extent to which particular enemies are a problem for particular frames, which is always a fun dynamic. It'd allow the enemies to play a little bit of color matching back at us in a way that giving us enemy health types never did. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by CopperBezel

[PublikDomain]

Ignoring the actual numbers, the facts remain that:

• The "S-Curve" reduces enemy EHP at higher level content, like Arbitrations, Sorties, and high-level Railjack, making them easier than before.
• Most players in your 2019 end-of-year survey reported that they value challenging content and that they value game balance.

So it seems like these changes run entirely contrary to what you have acknowledged from your own survey as the community's desires. Your players have reported to you in your own survey that they value challenging content, so you have in turn made the "challenging" content less challenging. Why? What purpose does this serve? The "S-Curve" does nothing positive for the game. It makes calculating enemy EHP more time-consuming and confusing. It does not fix the disparity between armored and unarmored units. It does not make the game more challenging or more balanced, and in fact makes the game significantly less challenging and significantly more imbalanced in the player's favor.

You cannot build challenging content without building good enemies, but it doesn't matter how smart or interesting your enemies are when they disappear in a fraction of a second. Case in point: Amalgams might be the most interesting enemies you guys have ever created, with unique and fun mechanics, but that doesn't matter when they die before they can do anything. An Amalgam might as well be a Crewman for the amount it influences gameplay. All of the time you have spent developing those units is time wasted, because your game does not allow these units - or any units - to carry out their behaviours before their immediate deaths.

Every change you have made to the enemies has failed in the past, and every change you make to the enemies will fail in the future, because the enemies have never been the problem with Warframe's imbalance. The problem has always been the player.