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Warframe Revised: Armor, Health & Shield Changes Megathread

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

The "S-Curve" does nothing positive for the game. It makes calculating enemy EHP more time-consuming and confusing. It does not fix the disparity between armored and unarmored units. It does not make the game more challenging or more balanced, and in fact makes the game significantly less challenging and significantly more imbalanced in the player's favor.

Health, shield, and armor growth rates are at least separate dials they can adjust now per the devstream explanation. That should in theory allow them to adjust the disparity between armored and unarmored units. It also means that they're basically partitioning off levels 75 and up and letting them be their own balance landscape with the assumption that the process up to level 75 is a reasonably continuous slope, as players are still pulling together the various parts they need at their own pace and not in endgame-optimization land. 

Balancing the game around a wild range of player DPS levels is definitely the ultimate source of all serious balance problems. But changing that would require much more severe changes. 

Right now, though, everything is paper. (And something-something nerf Viral.)

Edited by CopperBezel

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4 minutes ago, continue said:

Level - Base Level < 77:

Armor = Base Armor * [ 0.001477*(Level - Base Level)^2 + 0.01966*(Level - Base Level) + 0.9534 ]

Level - Base Level > 77:

Armor = Base Armor * [ 9.8353*ln(Level - Base Level) - 31.58 ] 

OR 

Armor = Base Armor * [ 0.5429*(Level - Base Level)^0.6997 ]

 

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So uh, since I guess this is a place for survivability stuffs, does Quick Thinking no longer stagger, er, at all? Because it seems to not do that anymore. 

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Corrupted Ancients, Ancient Healers, Ancient Disruptors all 1-shot my shields if 200 or less shield capacity when they use their tendril attack, doesn't seem to be reducing damage by any percent in these cases

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Posted (edited)

 

7 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Health, shield, and armor growth rates are at least separate dials they can adjust now per the devstream explanation. That should in theory allow them to adjust the disparity between armored and unarmored units. It also means that they're basically partitioning off levels 75 and up and letting them be their own balance landscape with the assumption that the process up to level 75 is a reasonably continuous slope, as players are still pulling together the various parts they need at their own pace and not in endgame-optimization land. 

Balancing the game around a wild range of player DPS levels is definitely the ultimate source of all serious balance problems. But changing that would require much more severe changes. 

Right now, though, everything is paper. (And something-something nerf Viral.)

The curves have always used their own set of constants. Health used a 2.0 exponent and a 0.015 coefficient, Shield used a 2.0 exponent and a 0.0075 coefficient, and Armor used a 1.75 exponent and a 0.005 coefficient. These values should have been just as adjustable before this update as they are after the update. AFAIK per-enemy constants is not a thing right now, but that could be implemented separately from the "S-Curve" thing.

And the issue with partitioning off lvl75+, or any level range for that matter, is that the enemy level does not and has not matched player power in any way, shape, or form. Because DE is so negligent with balancing the player, each player has their own unique Goldilocks zone where the enemy feels just right. For you it might be enemies lvl200-250, for me it might be enemies 60-70. And because the majority of the player's power comes from their current loadout and builds - not their skill - these ranges can change rapidly and unpredictably. Nevermind other players, this disparity also exists within your own loadout. For example, before this update my Amp dealt ~7k DPS, my Archgun dealt ~18-28k DPS (depending on faction), my Quellor dealt 20k DPS with the main fire and 220k DPS with the alt-fire, my Kuva Brakk dealt 200k DPS with 100% status, and my Khora dealt a blistering 2.6 million DPS. Just try and find an enemy that feels good for me to fight with all of my weapons. You can't.

So if DE says "lvl75 is now challenging content", it means absolutely nothing because for me "challenging content" didn't even begin to start till lvl150 - content that would require an hour of time waiting in an endless mission for the enemies to get up to speed. And with these new curves, challenging content won't start for me until enemies are in the 300s or more, effectively making an enemy that can survive more than one Whipclaw entirely nonexistant within the practical game. Plus, with enemy damage scaling the same as it did before my build can't survive in the kind of content where enemies stop being one-shot by everything, meaning Warframe's high level "gameplay" is even more "one-shot or be one-shot" than it was before!

This isn't exactly the right place to put this, but with the hopes that someone at DE actually reads this:

At the end of the day, balancing the player really isn't that hard to understand or implement. The reason the game is so inconsistent is that a player can cram a build full of DPS mods. This gives them a massive damage multiplier if done right, and if any slots are used for something other than DPS the player falls being drastically. This is why "required mods" are a problem, and this is why there's such a big difference between "good" and "bad" weapons. A good weapon or build will use a ton of DPS mods and have few innate downsides, while a bad weapon or build will use non-DPS mods and fall behind. You end up with a weapon that handles well but has crappy DPS, or a weapon that has mediocre DPS and handles terribly. Compare the Kuva Seer and Kuva Brakk, for example. This makes the player inconsistently powerful, and you cannot create consistent enemies for an inconsistently powerful player with inconsistent expectations of difficulty.

The solution, then, is to limit the range of DPS available to the player. When Player A has a 50x DPS multiplier and Player B has a 200x DPS multiplier, the balance falls apart. But if Player A has a 10x DPS multiplier and Player B has a 15x DPS multiplier, then it's a lot closer and you can build an enemy that feels OK for both. The best way to shrink the range of power is to limit the number of factors multiplying together to affect DPS.

Here's how to do it:

Spoiler
  1. Rework Polarity as a secondary modding currency like Mod Capacity. An item can have up to 3x V, 3x —, and 3x D Polarity mods, and no more than that.
    GayF0eS.jpg
  2. All mods get repolarized into strict categories: V for direct DPS (fire rate, damage, multishot, crit, status, etc), — for powerful QoL or secondary DPS (reload speed, punchthrough, ammo conversion, etc), and D for defensive mods (health, armor, Adaptation, block angle, etc). Mods already follow this convention, but it is not consistent or enforced (sounds like a common problem, no?). Mods that don't fit into one of these categories get no Polarity at all and can be freely equipped as long as you have enough Mod Slots and Mod Capacity to support them.
    • Elemental conversion mods are added, like the ones found in Conclave. These have no polarity and add no bonus damage, but do change the damage type.
  3. Rivens get multiple Polarities depending on positive stats. Damage/Multishot/Fire Rate costs 3x Vs to equip, Fire Rate/Reload Speed/Zoom costs 1x V and 1x —. The lowest Disposition weapons get stats roughly equivalent to their counterpart mods, eg ~155-175% Damage, with higher Disposition weapons getting stats strong enough to bring them on par with better weapons. Rivens now have a balanced role in the game, because they cannot be used to add additional power anymore. A Riven is good for compacting a build, adding more QoL, or catching up to the meta.
    • Because of this there would be no barrier to making Rivens easier to acquire and use.
    • This also makes balancing Rivens based on power and not popularity easier, since the number of factors is lower and DPS is more consistent.
      wztS4Qp.jpg
  4. Rework Forma: Forma no longer adds a Polarity to a slot, just a Forma icon. It behaves the same as now, but is universal regardless of Polarity. Umbral Forma is still required for Umbral mods, but Umbral Mods now have the appropriate Polarity. Aura Forma lets you move one Polarity Capacity from one Polarity to another, but only one at a time. Since these can only be applied to a frame once, it should be easy to run a script and refund them.
  5. 2Fy6dGq.jpgK9a4gSG8SmsYHX4QUcYXgomK-pBKLXXT9SHHlAyo
  6. Player DPS now sits around 10-15k DPS pretty much across the board, so now you can balance enemies and status effects. Enemies are easy: just make Armor scale linearly by making the exponent 1.0 instead of 1.75. An enemy at base level has 1x Armor, an enemy 100 levels above base has 1.5x Armor, and an enemy 200 levels above base has 2.0x Armor. Since Armor is already a multiplier to EHP, this brings armored units right in line with shielded units! Changing just the Armor exponent would give a lvl100 Tech 90k EHP and a lvl100 Heavy Gunner ~110k EHP. No stupid "S-Curves" required! Since player DPS is much lower and more consistent, Health and Shield curves can likewise be adjusted by halving or quartering the coefficient.
    • With a half coefficient and linear Armor scaling, a lvl100 Heavy Gunner has ~60k EHP, a lvl100 Tech has ~45k EHP, and a lvl100 Ancient has ~30k EHP. This works well because Infested are weak but swarm en masse, Grineer are big and strong and tanky, and Corpus have shield drones, shield gating, and other gadgets.
      Before:
      L101GYB.png
      After:
      E3tH6Z1.png

 

That's it. More complicated than ineffectually screwing with the damage curves? Absolutely! More complicated than reworking the entire damage and modding system? Nope! It has  a ton of benefits for everyone:

  1. Players are more consistent.
  2. No mods are destroyed or nerfed.
  3. Required mods are still here, but they can't eat up an entire build.
    • Competition among required mods is increased and more meaningful decisions must be made about damage. Do you want fire rate and status? Damage and crit? An elemental combo? "All of the above" is no longer a valid answer.
    • Powerful non-DPS mods are also limited, preventing them from becoming the new required mods.
  4. Forma is preserved and becomes universal.
  5. Rivens are completely supported and integrated in a balanced way, and can now be safely improved without further screwing the game's balance.
  6. The disparity between armored and unarmored units disappears, and units can be safely balanced to an expected amount of DPS.
Edited by PublikDomain
Typo and added images
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Before anyone forgots, now that armor has so severly changed for many warframes, can we remember to adjust armor values on focus tree rewards? Unairu has a armor buff that's looking.... pretty lackluster now that base armor values are so much higher, to the point it might not even be worth investing in. Should it be brought up some to compensate? (or it's cost lowered to reflect it's lesser value)

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

-snip-

This above post needs more attention, there's a lot of really logical stuff here. I'm half asleep and can only really give the math here a cursory glance but the premise is solid enough I can understand it.

My own hot take; expected range of damage from players is smart. If you want to encourage build diversity and build depth you should be encouraging interplay between weapons (primary, secondary, melee), frames, your focus and amp stuff, and literally everything you add to the game that could conceivably impact proficiency at any task.

For example, it's a little strange that the only interplay guns and melee have is status proccing and condition overload. Very often I find myself just picking a primary and secondary solely for the damage types covered and only in missions where that's relevant. I never have to vary up the choice. I can just pick bullet hose one or bullet hose two and any will do.

Once you tried the ideal build for one gun, you've found and enjoyed the ideal build for all guns.

This would chance if a single weapon wouldn't trivialize a mission. Sword Alone (or gun alone) should still be possible, but not what you go for if you're trying to do high level missions or endless survival outside of bragging rights.

I really like the changes so far, that said. I think what interests me the most is the headshot bypass for corpus shield gating. I want to see more things like this, and it's not for the reason one would expect: Could you take this in a direction that involves damage types?

i know body part weaknesses have been suggested before, but a 1 size fits all build wouldn't work anymore if you took a glance at the way the damage type meta currently is and create alternative avenues to exploit the system. Making an omlette out of broken eggs. There will always be broken eggs. Players will always find them. However, you can make more eggs to break and create more ways to break them. I'm not sure where I was going with this analogy. Sleep deprivation isn't healthy.

What I'm getting at is, right now Viral-Heat is meta. Corrosive Heat was the meta before. All the adjustment did was change what was meta. Much the same way all levels and scaling changes, at the end of the day, just change when things become a problem. However, depth would be "Viral Heat is great if you're going for headshots. Viral has multipliers on headshots and its melts things" much how it is right now but also going "Corrosive Cold is pretty good for limbs in situations where you're having a hard time getting the most out of Viral Heat out of your weapon, or that particular enemy unit." rather than "the new hotness is literal hotness with Heat".

This can go even further beyond. Gas being weak might not be intentional, I'm assuming, but considering it pairs with Electric, that's two damage types that can easily be useful in situations where enemies are crowding around and thus worth looking into as you check what's intentional and what's not.

Imagine if you might need multiple procs, just a couple on some enemies. 

Perhaps even have statuses stack faster, or slower, depending on if it hits a weakspot or not. This would even change what damage types are meta on melee with short range, or long range, or melee that can headshot with heavy attacks or not (Now that heavy attacks are viable, thanks for that too, that's appreciated.) This nuance multiplies with enemy unit diversity and enemy behavior complexity, when you inevitably address AI and enemy behaviors.

Overall, I think these are steps in the right direction taken thus far. The shift in attention to damage and status at all, along with disparity between units like Corpus Shields vs Grineer armor is absolutely loved from me. It has insane potential too, to take this game to places we might not even have imagined before.

Imagine integrating Impact Procs into stealth? Putting enemies back into unaware state with concussive force, especially if you hit the head? Or disarm if it hits the... arms. Uhm. Moving on.

 I love this stuff you're doing. Warframe is still my favorite game, even tho I can barely play it with my nearly nonexistent and obsolete hardware.

Passin out, good night. Much love.

Edited by Azimbee
Many many typos due to fatigue, probably didn't even find them all
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Well, I am vet (no pun intended) and basic practical change I can experience right now is, that the game becomes much easier. Enemies are dying faster, I am one hitting (+bleeds) lvl 165 crew ship officers with some weapons. That wasn't possible before. So am kinda curious, why have you done that? Will the power of players be descaled to some reasonable level in the future?

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11 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

This isn't exactly the right place to put this, but with the hopes that someone at DE actually reads this:

Everything you described is of course exactly right, but I'm not sure that the only reason DPS can scale the way it does is for the sake of not nerfing our mods. That Goldilocks gating means that players progress through a series of former endgames to get all the way up to the current one, and do so at a pace determined by both their skill and their grinding time (or for some, if we're honest, plat and YouTube builds.) 

The reality is that weapon builds are rarely fun, and only become a little fun when they tie into a gameplay difference or frame feature, things that only really happen with melee and based on some particular arcanes, Life Strike, etc. I'm not sure that the gameplay would actually lose anything if weapon mods ceased to exist in favor of a single arcane slot like amps get. I mean, can you imagine if the only way to get increasing crit chance with melee combo was to use the Gladiator set on our frames? We'd actually have to make some tradeoffs or something. 

What you're describing could be a positive change if very carefully calibrated - kinda like the changes to shotguns and explosive weapons in Revised, it would be returning some things to their original intended design through a somewhat more circuitous and convoluted way that would be read as a devastating nerf to the meta, so I'm sure it would be very popular. It would mean enemy eHP and armor could always be scaled appropriately to a given level of challenge, it would mean the devs would have a rough idea of how many shots or seconds a given phase of a boss would take, and it would give a backbone to which abilities with damage and armor strip aspects could be pinned, because flat damage and armor numbers would strictly mean something now. It'd be no harder than balancing any cooperative magic 3D metroidvania thing.

Buuuuut ... that, like my preferred solution of doing away with weapon mods entirely, only considers how lovely it would be for balancing a single mission context, not what it would mean for the "overall progression" for a given player. 

And what the "progression" does is give players the impression that they're getting a return, in access and shiny gear, for their grind time, while allowing that Goldilocks effect. And the Goldilocks effect is precisely the thing that allows Warframe to straddle "shooter" and "click farmer" and appeal to the entire range of players in between. Skill, grind time, and to a lesser extent cash money are interchangeable currencies for progressing through the content access gating that the game presents.

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Il y a 12 heures, PublikDomain a dit :

The solution, then, is to limit the range of DPS available to the player.

how will you do this ?

calculate the increase of DPS, caclulate the square root of it, and divide the damage of the weapon by this ?

it can work for the weapon.

but for the warframe, it is more complicated, they would all need a complet change on they damage.

and it would be hard to explain to the player.

or it would need to hide it (and give the possibility to show it) : the casual player see the damage like if they were not reduce, but the real damage are lower.

 

With a change like this, they can the life of ennemies scall linearly at all level.

 

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15 hours ago, Wakata said:

Well, I am vet (no pun intended) and basic practical change I can experience right now is, that the game becomes much easier. Enemies are dying faster, I am one hitting (+bleeds) lvl 165 crew ship officers with some weapons. That wasn't possible before. So am kinda curious, why have you done that? Will the power of players be descaled to some reasonable level in the future?

because DE wanted higher level content available for all warframes and weapons not just a select few. 

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Just make armor a flat value, as it works as a multiplier to the HP pool. The issue with armor isn't that it scales exponentially with level, it is that it scales exponentially with health. You could have a completely flat progression and it would still become a problem. No joke, lets look at the numbers.

Lets say you have an enemy (a tank) who's Health(hp) and Armor(ar) scale completely linerly. For Health it is 1,000hp X lv (so 1,000hp at lv1, 2,000hp at lv2, 3,000hp at lv 3, 50,000hp at lv50, 100,000hp at lv100, and 150,000hp at lv 150). For Armor we will use 300 Armor X lv (so 300ar at lv1, 600ar at lv2, 900ar at lv 3, 15,000ar at lv50, 30,000ar at lv100, and 45,000ar at lv 150). We use these numbers to simplify the math because we are most concerned with how much HP it takes to kill something, or "effective health"(EH). So that 300armor starting number is chosen because the math works out that the EH is 1 higher for every 300 armor. So at level 1 the armor gives you 1 extra Health pool worth of damage (on top of the original) for the total EH of 2 times your Health Pool (1 original plus 1 more), at lv2 you get 2 extra Health Pools worth of damage for an EH of 3 times your Health (1 original plus 2 more); at 3 you get 3 extra for EH of 4 times your HP, at lv50 you get 50 more for EH of 51Xhp, at 100 you get EH of 101 times HP, at 150 you get an EH of 151 times HP. All the base numbers are as liner as we can possibly make them.

Unfortunately as the level progresses both the HP AND the AR go up at the same time. So at LV1 the EH is 2,000, at lv2 the EH is 4,000, at lv3 the EH is 12,000, at 4 the EH is 20,000, at 50 the EH is over 2,550,000, at lv 100 the number is 10,100,000, and 150 the number is 22,650,000. Yes, those numbers are in the millions even by lv50. The most damaging weapon I have in terms of base damage, without crits or statuses, is my Tigris Prime and deals about 77,000 damage. That means that my most powerful weapon will take about 33 shots to take down the lv50 enemy, 130 shots to take down the LV100, and 294 shots to take down the 150. Since it takes 2.8 seconds for every 2 shots that means that I'll be sitting there for over a minute and a half just firing at the lv 50, and I'll run through my entire ammo pool without killing the lv100 (and it would take 6 minutes for the 100). The LV 150 would go through my entire ammo pool two and a half times, for a total time of almost 14 minutes of nothing but firing (assuming inhumanly perfect firing speed, and doing nothing but firing).

This is the real problem, not the exponential of the base numbers that we had before (it was slow enough to not be a problem), but the result of applying the effects of your lv to both Health and Armor which multiply with each other.

Now critical focused weapons can, with a headshot and an EXTREMELY expensive build on a few very specific weapons, deal enough damage to effectively take down the LV 50. By level 100, however, even that isn't capable of taking down the lv100 or higher enemies in a timely manner. What we had before was Corrosive damage and slash stacking, and a few specific warframe powers that could be used to deal with it (but that is extremely situational). Corrosive would be faster in most cases, as it would remove the armor completely, but slash procs can eventually take down the enemy. Neither of these are unharmed by these changes. Corrosive procs can now only remove 80% of the total armor, which makes the enemy 5 times easier to kill (but only AFTER the full number of Corrosive procs have been applied). To put it in perspective this means that the LV50 enemy will now only take about 20 seconds to kill, and the others would similarly only be reduced to a fifth of the outrageous times listed above; and that is only after all the corrosive procs have been applied, which takes even more time. Slash procs hit shields now, but they also aren't weighted more heavily over elementals for status effects. This means that, if you try to increase your status chance beyond the one mod with no elementals it, you will pretty much have to add the dual status/elemental damage mods. But if you add those mods you will be getting that other status rather than slash procs much of the time, and adding 2 of them will ensure that the majority of your status effects won't be slash.

The solution to the Armor problem is simple, but requires looking at the actual problem. If the problem is that both Armor and Health scale with level and multiply with each other, than simply make it so that one of those (armor) doesn't scale with level. Pick a good flat number (probably around what enemies have at lv 45 or 50) and scale only health. Armor stripping will still be valuable, since that effectively decreases the effective health that you need to go through to kill the enemies, but it means that it won't be an absolute requirement for every build for fear of running into a practically unkillable enemy otherwise. Numbers won't get stupidly high even with the old HP scaling with level. Enemy shields still worked before this update (even without the shield gate) so that proves that scaling only one stat can still be effective.

The current solution that has been implemented completely ignores the actual problem. Yes, it makes high level enemies easier to kill, but the armor problem persists and now we have fewer means of effectively dealing with it.

 

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Posted (edited)

Better idea. Enemy scaling should be exponential, and then turn into a linear increase based on the point we stopped in the exponential curve. A much better implementation with more flexibility later down the line of we want to change enemy scaling at higher levels.

Also, enemies are all paper now no matter the content. Previously we could oneshot level 200 grineer, which was beyond most content and only found in endurance runs. Nothing poses a challenge anymore. Although this is more an issue if the games design, conflating numerical stat increases with difficulty, without any mechanics backing up.

To illustrate my point, consider Monster Hunter World. If MHW was designed like Warframe, monsters would be immobile and their only attack would be a constant aoe damage over time, and we would merely slap them and hope our dps outpaces theirs. But in reality the game requires a lot of mechanical skill. Warframe has very little like this, eidolons and the orb come close though and are imo the best enemy design this game has ever had.

In all, I think lowering enemy scaling and reducing player power scaling could work, only if you back it up with changes to enemy design to increase the amount of mechanical skill this game requires, and challenging players through something that isn't theory crafting builds and mod maxing.

Edit: poster above makes good points, but I think armour scaling should still exist. It should just be very very low, iirc 300 armor = 100% ehp, they should be getting something like 1-2% of their base armor per level, absolute maximum. Possibility lower, so ehp never scales out of control like it did with two forms of exponential scaling, that scale exponentially off each other.

Edit 2: also the shield scaling nerf should be reverted because let's be honest, they were trash before and they're a dumpster fire now. Enemy shields need a total rework and an inspection of how they interact with all current game mechanics and why they're not useful.

Edited by Drago55577

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Il y a 7 heures, Drago55577 a dit :

To illustrate my point, consider Monster Hunter World. If MHW was designed like Warframe, monsters would be immobile and their only attack would be a constant aoe damage over time, and we would merely slap them and hope our dps outpaces theirs.

It is why compare Waraframe and MHW is as relevant as Warframe to Minecraft. may-be less.

It would be more suitable to compare it to a Hack n slash.

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Unique player armor type: great change allowing balancing of enemy versus player far more effectively. Starting it out as all null is a little strange.

Player shields take 25% less damage: I approve of any change that brings shields closer in effectiveness to health+armor builds.

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Something relevant, infested under old scaling were still being oneshot lvl 200+. Now they'll never reach that point, they're pretty weak now.

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Type Proto Shields have 25% damage bonus by Toxin... but why if we cannot hit the shield by Toxin? x) I even checked - did hits on Tech and Soldier of Corpus with Acrid - same damage and seems there no any hide mechanic, so this bonus is just cannot be used. =]

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I thought about adding this to my previous reporting on Shield-Gating here, but after some thought there's nothing really tangible to add to information I had put in that response as this is more opinion and less hard evidence. 

After continuing to test the whole corpus shield gating, the RNG that is being generated for a Corpus unit -- specifically MOAs -- to survive a one-hit doesn't feel like it's more challenging, but instead comes off like an AD&D game where the enemy is "roll to save" against an attack.  It doesn't seem to matter whether the player is hitting a vital point (like head and extremities) or not as the save seems to be entirely chosen at random.  

Further in its current state, you -- DE -- continue to reward players to using the Corrosive Projection mod regardless of whether they're using an impact/magnetic weapon or not. 

To test this, I ran both a Nidus with Corrosive Projection mod and a a Loki/Loki Prime is running an efficient Invisibility and isn't running with Corrosive Projection (Energy Siphon instead).  The Loki/Loki Prime can't seem to get the necessary critical stealth multipliers regardless of the unalerted states (and alert states continue to feel completely arbitrary as the Loki is also running a maxed Hushed Invisibility mod) on Corpus targets and the saving throws happen more often against all targets regardless of added shields, proto-shields and heightened armour strength(s).  

This sort of raises the question, "is this really more challenging?  Or am I -- and the player base -- going to further suffer the capricious whims of rolling craps at the most inopportune times?"  

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On 2020-03-10 at 5:24 PM, PublikDomain said:

PublikDomain's good post

Like what PublikDomain said, if the players damage potential is a huge range, there isn't any standard you can actually calibrate enemy durability to.

Player damage needs to be more predictable somehow. Maybe a super basic way could be to reduce total +damage over a specific amount, so stacking +damage becomes less effective.

Basically a soft cap for +damage and possibly other stats.

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Last time I tried the revised update I took my Volt p to a sortie, it was a mobile defense mission, corpus, didn't really touch the build. It's basically an all balanced Volt who is also a though cookie to crack, has plenty health, armor, quick thinking, flow, rage and a few other things, does not have a single shield dedicated mod. It barely took any health damage, halfway through the mission I wasn't even rolling or trying to evade damage at all. Been a bit discouraged since.

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I have not found a "Status changes" related feedback forum when I was looking and this one seemed like the closest thing.

Due to the nature of status being calculated so differently, as well as the fact that now all statuses can stack, AS WELL AS the fact that a single shot can proc multiple statuses, the entire nature of a status build has changed. I think for the better, but many people have complained, and after having played with the new system for a few weeks I have just a few things I'd like to see addressed.

1- Gas damage. It's a DoT from fire and a DoT from toxin, and the resulting combo is a DoT that is weaker than both of the individuals, it's like the weaknesses were added together instead of the strengths. At present, even with the recent radius upgrade, I'd prefer simply having a fire proc and a toxin proc rather than a gas proc.

2- Some clarification of the faction damage mods. [Bane of Grineer] or [Smite Corpus] mods were invaluable in certain status builds (gas especially) but at present they are weaker than I feel they should be, unless there is some math I'm not understanding (which is entirely possible.) I'd also like to see them addressed in a much clearer way.

3RD and most importantly!- Rivens. The base chance of the status mods that ~nobody~ used were dramatically increased (multiplyed by 6!) to give them a chance as an option in status builds, however 60/60 mods weren't changed at all and perhaps they should be, but most egregiously Rivens weren't adjusted at all!

Now I'm not saying that Rivens should have their base chance adjusted by x6 (I actually would LOVE to see that, but I understand it would break the game) but I would like to see any Riven that has a "Status Chance" modifier recalculated according to the newly established base of mods like [Rifle Aptitude] and the like. For weapons like Bows that can't abuse multishot in the same way that, say, shotguns can, it really shouldn't be a problem if they have 200% status chance in a full build with a riven. 

For example, if the Daikyu and it's fat 46% base status chance (which was recently nerfed for some reason) were to have a riven with 100% status, it would get 92% status chance. But now it can't insta-kill stuff with slash, or gas, since those elements were nerfed so heavily, and while it used to be an incredible weapon with a Riven, now it's pretty pointless for a status build, even though that's what it was built for. Bullet-hose weapons with multishot and shotguns with multishot are better in every way without a Riven than the bows with one. That just seems silly, and is something I'd like to see you guys take into deliberate consideration.

Thinking about this has lead me to a few ideas and suggestions but the only one that I really think carries any water is this one.

Perhaps status chance could be a function of damage, so Bows that shoot one shot could stack status effects per every 200 points of damage at it's status chance percentage, since it seems stacking is the way to go now. The math gets somewhat complicated, but I think some function like that (if not that exact one) is a strong contender to reign in some of the outliers and bring up some of the things that fall behind.

That said shotguns (or any gun) could work the same way.

For example, for every 200 points of damage dealt, per pellet, a status chance is rolled. That way a shotgun that shoots 20 pellets that deal 1,000 damage each would roll 100 times at whatever it's status chance is, lets say 25%, so 25 status effects would be applied.

Or a bow that shoots 1 pellet that deals 20,000 damage would also roll 100 times, so if it's status chance was also 25%, then 25 status effects would be applied.

This is, of course, over simplified, but in both cases 25 status effects are applied to one enemy in one shot. And if they are both status based weapons it seems like they should have similar goals and outcomes.

Thanks for reading!

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So far I'm very happy with the changes.  When fighting high-level enemies (I tested with a variety of level 100 Corrupted) I feel like my squishier frames can survive easier.  I feel like I have a good amount of warning before I die, and I'm definitely not getting one-shot.  I also feel like my weapons are able to take out enemies faster, and that armor isn't the nigh-penetrable wall that it used to be.  Granted, I'm using high-end builds that benefit from having most of the mods.

I feel like this feedback wouldn't be complete without talking about how the new status types seem to complement this new system, since status is a big part of dealing damage.  Overall, I think they offer a nicer variety of options now, and especially with the ability to stack their effects I feel like while there are certainly damage types that will rise to the top, it's not like the others aren't viable.  I do think some of them should stack faster, as it feels rough to go from that first proc doing 25% (meaningful change) to all the ones following it doing 5% (1/5 of a meaningful change).  It means that while you get some benefit from multiple procs, it's sort of a consolation prize, and you'd often be better off modding for something else.

Overall, I think things are better, and I'm hoping that I might even be able to get some new friends into the game

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I've been playing railjack for almost a month straight since release.

I see that the ship being powerful is fantastic but I really want you guys to up the armor on ARCHWINGS and increase the weapon damage on archwing weapons.

I want my team to be able to use the gear they have to help me.

 

Yes, having everyone on board the ship doing a job is nice, but exiting the ship to take crews without slingshot SHOULD be possible, I hate seeing a crew member getting 1 shot by nearby fighters and then screamed and throwing off the aim of the railjack.

 

Let archwing be viable, I was grinding mods and leveling up my archwing gear for the FIRST TIME because of how fun it was.

 

Thanks.

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Posted (edited)

I noticed literally no difference in damage, in fact my tonkor is weaker now and so are most of my corrosive builds. The problem here is, you wanted to make the grineer less tanky but you removed the original way of dealing with them. So you have a positive and a equal negative. (That makes a negative)

So really you did absolutely nothing in terms of making armor less annoying if you nerf corrosive. They need to have hard capped armor or you need to figure out a new way to handle this. Cause all I see is that you nerfed my guns and basically made every other faction weaker except for the grineer, which are arguably the worst offender. Hello?

Edited by Whitestrake0
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