Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

[DE]Bear

Warframe Revised: Armor, Health & Shield Changes Megathread

Recommended Posts

I am going to preference by saying it isn't an "S-Curve". An S curve is a sigmoid function that has no part in games. What you ACTUALLY have here is a minimum function with two different formulas, a radicand and an exponent. You've ALWAYS had this when it came to level scaling, a formula you've never given to players.

Here is the issue with the changes. I am 100% fine with limited scaling armor. It is an attribute FAR too overused, and if you asked me, I'd have it being a set percentage and focus on health scaling.

Shields? Sure. Not a big issue

Health. This is where you messed up DE. Back in Damage 1.0 days, you had the formula where damage outscaled health. This was how builds like link trin became so popular way back when the Tenn Os where the king of endurance. Well, we're back to that and Trinity isn't even the best frame for this anymore. We got Octavia now, who's even better. But that's not the main issue.

Health is not like other attributes. There is no work-around for health like there is for armor and shields. All other attributes are either multipliers or additives to health and an enemy is only considered dead when his health reaches 0. Thus, the most linear and consistent way to affect enemies is through their health scaling. Our power as players is UNIVERSALLY stronger than any enemy in the game. So much so that you have to implement negation of player abilities to bring in some balance, but this is the wrong attitude. It isn't like there are outliers for you to nerf, it's everything. Sure there are things better than the other, but if you try to nerf them all, you fall into the whack-a-mole issue of a never ending cycle of nerfs, nigh like what you've been doing. You nerf one, the players find another. You nerf that, players find another, round n round we go and this only causes hatred and conflict between devs and players, who feel directly attacked, but never seems to get the job done.

What you needed to do is UP the health scaling formula. With the changes to armor, overall EHp is the same up to early sortie levels. Anyone will tell you that these levels are very easy and an increase to enemy health will not be noticeable,but after that, enemy EHp drops dramatically. This is due to the new changes. If you would change the formula to be a little stronger, then enemy EHp would've been compensated to match the old levels, which players can rightfully tell you was not too hard at all. THEN, you can bring in HARDER enemies to challenge those that want to go beyond.

This is where players can find an indirect limit. Instead of "noping" them out of their own mechanics, give them an area that their abilities don't work simply because the enemy is too strong. This entices players to go back to the drawing board, improve their builds, improve their aim, etc. and get better. This is replayable content. Stuff that you can always come back to and get better.

I propose changing the formula to health ONLY. Making it follow this path
Health = Base*(1+.00075(Current-Base level)^2.7)
Let's go over how this change will affect gameplay
This is a calculator I made to represent enemy EHp over a certain level period.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/b8fnnsh94o
I'll post a picture of it to better give an understanding.

qi1nq7E.png

Purple line is current health scaling
Lower Green line is My health scaling formula
Blue line is current EHp scaling
Upper Green line is original EHp scaling
Black line is my proposed EHp scaling

What this does is bring the enemy EHp back to roughly what we had before, utilizing the new scaling for armor and shields. Because it is focused towards health, it won't encounter the issues we had before of armor bypass and reduction turning the game into chucky cheese. Enemies 70 and below will have less heath, sitting at half the current health for level 30 and below, but scaling upwards to only 20% less for level 60. Health is equal to current function at level 80 with health being +45% higher for level 100, scaling up to double the current health formula at level 116. This increase exponentially into the sky, with the current armor scaling maintaining EHp also exactly as it was before for normal high end missions.

My formula has EHp being slightly higher than before this change from level 70-120, at which point the old formula take off way more drastically, soaring into the clouds.
My formula has enemies reach integer cap of health at 3637, WAY beyond what the normal game levels would be, providing an indirect cap to the game where enemies simply become too hard for players.

This is my strong suggestion
EDIT: I've added a suggestion to also increase base enemy health by ~70%
This will be the list for enemy health classes

Spoiler

Gadget Class: 10 to 10
Fly Class: 35 to 60
Light Class 50: 50 to 85
Light Class 60: 60 to 105
Normal Class 100: 100 to 170
Specialist Class: 120 to 205
Elite Class 150: 150 to 255
Elite Class 200: 200 to 340
Elite Class 250: 250 to 425
Light Heavy Class: 300 to 515
Specialist Heacy Class: 350 to 600
400 Class: 400 to 685
Heavy Class 500: 500 to 855
Heavy Class 600: 600 to 1030
Heavier Class 650: 650 to 1115
Super Heavy Class 700: 700 to 1200
Super Heavy Class 750: 750 to 1285
Ultra Class 800: 800 to 1370
Ultra Class 900: 900 to 1545
Ultra Class 1000: 1000 to 1700
Ultra Class 1100: 1100 to 1885
Ultra Class 1200: 1200 to 2060
Ultra Class 1500: 1500 to 2550
Ultra Class 1700: 1700 to 2915
Boss Class 2000: 2000 to 3430
Boss Class 3000: 3000 to 5150
Boss Class 4000: 4000 to 6860
Hemocyte: 2200 to 3770
Juggernaut: 3500 to 6000
Juggernaut Behemoth: 4500 to 6000
Ropalyst: 5000 to 8550
Razorback: 6000 to 10300
Kela de Thaym: 7250 to 12430
Eidolon: 9000 to 15500
Profit-Taker Orb: 7000 to 12000
Zealoid Prelate: 11000 to 18850
Exploiter Orb: 12000 to 20570
Jordas Golem: 20000 to 34000

Now, you might think that this change is a bit steep, especially on a eidolon, but it really isn't. I'll explain why.
Eidolon Hydrolyst at level 60 Hp goes from 638,580 to 718,076. That's a difference of +13% more Hp/EHp. Exploiter orb has a difference of +32%.

The reasoning for this is to remove the decrease in overall enemy health in star chart levels.

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/epvvzyl7or
Here's an updated chart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-04-09 at 3:10 AM, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I am going to preference by saying it isn't an "S-Curve". An S curve is a sigmoid function that has no part in games. What you ACTUALLY have here is a minimum function with two different formulas. You've ALWAYS had this when it came to level scaling, a formula who have never realised.

Here is the issue with the changes. I am 100% fine to infinite scaling armor. It is an attribute FAR too  overused, and if you asked me, I'd have it being a set percentage and focus on health scaling.

Shields? Sure. Not a big issue

Health. This is where you messed up DE. Back in Damage 1.0 days, you had the formula where damage outscaled health. This was how builds like link trin became so popular way back when the Tenn Os where the king of endurance. Well, we're back to that and Trinity isn't even the best frame for this anymore. We got Octavia now, who's even better. But that's not the main issue.

Health is not like other attributes. There is no work-around for health like there is for armor and shields. All other attributes are either multipliers or additives ti health and an enemy is only considered dead when his health reaches 0. Thus, the most linear and consistent way to affect enemies is through their health scaling. Our power as players is UNIVERSALLY stronger than any enemy in the game. So much so that you have to implement negation of player abilities to bring in some balance, but this is the wrong attitude. It isn't like there are outliers for you to nerf, it's everything. Sure there are things better than the other, but if you try to nerf them all, you fall into the whack-a-mole issue. You nerf one, the players find another. You nerf that, players find another, round n round we go and this only causes hatred and conflict between devs and players, who feel directly attacked, but never seems to get the job done.

What you needed to do is UP the health scaling formula. With the changes to armor, overall EHp is the same up to early sortie levels. Anyone will tell you that these levels are very easy and an increase to enemy health will not be noticeable,but after that, enemy EHp drops dramatically. This is due to the new changes. If you would change for formula to be a little stronger, then enemy EHp would've been compensated to match the old levels, which players can rightfully tell you was not too hard at all. THEN, you can bring in HARDER enemies to challenge those that want to go beyond.

This is where players can find an indirect limit. Instead of "noping" them out of their own mechanics, give them an area that their abilities don't work simply because the enemy is too strong. This entices players to go back to the drawing board, improve their builds, improve their aim, etc. and get better. This is replayable content. Stuff that you can always come back to and get better.

I propose changing the formula to health ONLY. Making it follow this path
Health = Base*(1+.00075(Current-Base level)^2.7)
Let's go over how this change will affect gameplay
This is a calculator I made to represent enemy EHp over a certain level period.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/b8fnnsh94o
I'll post a picture of it to better give an understanding.

qi1nq7E.png

Purple line is current health scaling
Lower Green line is My health scaling formula
Blue line is current EHp scaling
Upper Green line is original EHp scaling
Black line is my proposed EHp scaling

What this does is bring the enemy EHp back to roughly what we had before, utilizing the new scaling for armor and shields. Because it is focused towards health, it won't encounter the issues we had before of armor bypass and reduction turning the game into chucky cheese. Enemies 70 and below will have less heath, sitting at half the current health for level 30 and below, but scaling upwards to only 20% less for level 60. Health is equal to current function at level 80 with health being +45% higher for level 100, scaling up to double the current health formula at level 116. This increase exponentially into the sky, with the current armor scaling maintaining EHp also exactly as it was before for normal high end missions.

My formula has EHp being slightly higher than before this change from level 70-120, at which point the old formula take off way more drastically, soaring into the clouds.
My formula has enemies reach integer cap of health at 3637, WAY beyond what the normal game levels would be, providing an indirect cap to the game where enemies simply become too hard for players.

This is my strong suggestion
EDIT: I've added a suggestion to also increase base enemy health by ~70%
This will be the list for enemy health classes

  Reveal hidden contents

Gadget Class: 10 to 10
Fly Class: 35 to 60
Light Class 50: 50 to 85
Light Class 60: 60 to 105
Normal Class 100: 100 to 170
Specialist Class: 120 to 205
Elite Class 150: 150 to 255
Elite Class 200: 200 to 340
Elite Class 250: 250 to 425
Light Heavy Class: 300 to 515
Specialist Heacy Class: 350 to 600
400 Class: 400 to 685
Heavy Class 500: 500 to 855
Heavy Class 600: 600 to 1030
Heavier Class 650: 650 to 1115
Super Heavy Class 700: 700 to 1200
Super Heavy Class 750: 750 to 1285
Ultra Class 800: 800 to 1370
Ultra Class 900: 900 to 1545
Ultra Class 1000: 1000 to 1700
Ultra Class 1100: 1100 to 1885
Ultra Class 1200: 1200 to 2060
Ultra Class 1500: 1500 to 2550
Ultra Class 1700: 1700 to 2915
Boss Class 2000: 2000 to 3430
Boss Class 3000: 3000 to 5150
Boss Class 4000: 4000 to 6860
Hemocyte: 2200 to 3770
Juggernaut: 3500 to 6000
Juggernaut Behemoth: 4500 to 6000
Ropalyst: 5000 to 8550
Razorback: 6000 to 10300
Kela de Thaym: 7250 to 12430
Eidolon: 9000 to 15500
Profit-Taker Orb: 7000 to 12000
Zealoid Prelate: 11000 to 18850
Exploiter Orb: 12000 to 20570
Jordas Golem: 20000 to 34000

Now, you might think that this change is a bit steep, especially on a eidolon, but it really isn't. I'll explain why.
Eidolon Hydrolyst at level 60 Hp goes from 638,580 to 718,076. That's a difference of +13% more Hp/EHp. Exploiter orb has a difference of +32%.

The reasoning for this is to remove the decrease in overall enemy health in star chart levels.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/2xwlk34ihy
Here's an updated chart

i hate it when ppl quote some bigass post but i think its warranted in this case. the above is solid and id like to see this or similar implemented soon.

DE; in recent times what happens to new players is this-

enemy levels 5-15 = no problem, learning movement

enemies 20-25 = player notices that mods, or lack of, are (not) contributing to time-to-kill

enemies 30-40 = player is learning to ask clan mates/etc for spare copies of mods, starting to hit a wall against field bosses if player lacks mods/frames

 

...therefore, the quoted system where lower level enemies are actually somewhat lower of HP and then the curve steepens but more broadly addresses both new players falling on their face as they outpace their gear, and established players who dont wanna wait 2 hours into a survival for truly tough enemies.

i'm not scared of your precious grineer, give me the lv300s, or 500s, or whathaveyou.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shield gating makes it very hard for me to die in my all-purpose rage+curative undertow hydroid setup.

It also makes rage procs very annoying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Return the corrosive price to a infinite duration , not only does it make no sense - but it ruins corrosive for anything other than bullet hoses. 
It also makes it less unique, every proc now acts the exact same way. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Increase maximum health by a LOT (this will prevent 1 hitting with exodia contagion + Warframe damage buffs, etc..). (All of the weapons in game deal insane damage...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd probably say that armor still scales way too fast relative to health and shields, as it's a multiplier on existing health.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

enemies were already easy enough to kill but now with basicly 0 armor? i dont got a hot knife striking at butter, its like literally anything going through water, WAAAYY too easy. the corpus due to shield gating arn't a problem in this aspect (at least not as much) but the grinner need something akin to shield gating of their own. perhaps armor breaking? maybe buff armor a bit back and make it so after they're damaged past a point their armor will break, lowering armor down to 80% armor left at most. (20% armor strip)

As in they'ed have a 2end bar similar to shields that goes down as they take damage. but their health would directly go down too though not as much, and once the armor's health bar fully depletes, their armor value goes down by 10-20%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...