Jump to content

Warframe Revised: Removing Self-Damage / Stagger Megathread


Recommended Posts

Self Damage Changes:

We are getting rid of Self Damage and replacing it with something else: instead of Self Damage, it’s now ‘Stagger’. This change completely removes the chance of killing yourself, and instead now creates scenarios where you will interrupt yourself - or ‘Stagger’ - to varying degrees if you aren’t careful. 


The degrees of Self-Interrupt start with a small stumble all the way to full knockdown depending on how close you are to the center of explosion. Any Mods referring to Self Damage will be converted to acknowledge Stagger.

 

With this Self-Interrupt system, we have added dozens of new recovery animations that harness a ninja-like recovery experience. By pressing ‘Jump’ at the correct time, you can execute a ninja-skill-based knockdown recovery to ALL in-game knockdowns. This ninja recovery window is indicated by a glowing FX on your Warframe.
 

In addition to Self Damage being removed, some of the more powerful AOE weapons without Self Damage presently will have the Stagger added, but it should only be noticeable in cases of extreme inaccuracy on the player’s part. The Weapons include:
 

Spoiler

Kuva Chakkurr
Opticor
Opticor Vandal
Battacor
Simulor
Synoid Simulor
Ferrox

Astilla
Shedu
Kuva Seer
Cyanex
Staticor
Pox
Tombfinger
Granmu Prism
Exard Scaffold

 

In the original Dev Workshop, we said:
As a result of this overall systemic change, Weapons with Stagger will be getting approximately a 20% buff in Damage, with any weapons with AOE receiving a 50% Radial Damage Falloff from central impact. 

 

This is no longer accurate after continued testing. What we are doing now is:

No damage buffs have been added, but any weapons with AOE are receiving ~20% increase in Radius. Additionally, AOE weapons are receiving a 90% Radial Damage Falloff from central impact. This means on the very outer section of the explosion Radius 10% of the Damage will be dealt. Tactics will be deadly - aim true, Tenno.
 

Why: Several players brought up the history of the Tonkor and we want to make sure we ship this change in a place that’s conservative in its starting point from a balance perspective. The complete removal of Self Damage does change the pace of destruction with some of the game’s most powerful weapons, so we want to make sure we can iterate upwardly instead of releasing a bonanza of explosions with no other choices. 

 

With the removal of Self Damage, Cautious Shot Mod has been changed to be Rifle compatible and reflect the new Stagger mechanic:

 

  • +90% chance to reduce the Stagger effect from self-imposed Radial Attacks.

 

 

Please remember to leave your feedback in a constructive and civil manner! Remember, this thread is for FEEDBACK ONLY. If you have a bug, please make sure you submit your bug on this thread and follow the new guidelines!

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

Love the effort u guys putting into these changes and I like majority of the changes,

However,90% DMG fall off is a lott,it defeats the purpose of calling them AOE weapons,50% is acceptable but -90% will kill majority of AOE weapons, because the AOE weapons aren't as powerful as you think,only kuva bramma is a broken powerful weapon and u can nerf it 

But please don't make other AOE weapons suffer...they are already not that powerful honestly 

  • Like 20
Link to post
Share on other sites

This change is terrible and ruins launchers for people who liked launchers. On top of that, the changes to AoE damage basically ruin their niche. Not everything needs to be a rifle.

The only reason people complained about self damage was that cautious shot was a 30,000 Endo investment that was a total meme when you added it. With the buff to 99% and addition of wexilus, the problem was solved but it was easier to complain. And so people who liked launchers pay the price? That's totally unfair.

Your overzealous nerfing leaves me with no weapons left that I enjoy in a game about pointing weapons at a crowd of enemies. I'm done with this game.

  • Like 29
Link to post
Share on other sites

Damage falloff needs to go. You've made a mistake, and I don't think the players will let it go. There was no reason to nerf the damage. There was no reason to make wide-area-weapons focused on killing single enemies. We already have amazing AOE weapons in the form of chaining beams. Just give us the damn explosives. I don't understand why you're so biased towards this weapon style.

Cautious shot needs to be 100%. Needs to apply to all weapons. If not, release seperate versions. Why does only one weapon category let us remove an annoying mechanic? Having this option is already great, but why must there always be a horrible setback?

If the above changes are made, then the addition of new weapons into the "staggering group" should be fine.

Don't get me wrong - this is great progress compared to old self-damage, however, it's now time to finalize the change. There shouldn't be a step back for every step forward. Finish the job. Fix the damn weapons. Realize that fun does not make weapons powerful. Self-damage weapons are as strong as any other strong weapon and other AOE weapons that outclass them exist, that have no penalties for use. Finish the job.

And for the love of god, don't just nudge it back. No 99% stagger resist, please. No 30% damage falloff (Edit: OH CMON) I've seen how you roll back things, DE. I've seen the degree of your refusal to remove things you've already made (even if it's for the greater good). Just do it right once, and be done with it already. Make the weapons as good as anything else.

Bonus: "Explosive Weapons are strong, so there needs to be a downside"

  • Polearms and whips cut entire rooms. Have no downsides.
  • Beams chain across enemies and melt them. Have no downsides.
  • Weapons such as pre-update Staticor, Quanta, etc all had large effect areas with no downsides. Saw little use outside of clearing rooms.
  • A huge amount of warframes allow wide-area damage with no downsides.
  • Explosive weapons? You gotta aim carefully for those, and you gotta use a mod slot on the rifles or you'll stagger. Sucks to be you if you're using another weapon type 🙂
Edited by PerishedFraud
  • Like 32
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, abhi1913 said:

Love the effort u guys putting into these changes and I like majority of the changes,

However,90% DMG fall off is a lott,it defeats the purpose of calling them AOE weapons,50% is acceptable but -90% will kill majority of AOE weapons, because the AOE weapons aren't as powerful as you think,only kuva bramma is a broken powerful weapon and u can nerf it 

But please don't make other AOE weapons suffer...they are already not that powerful honestly 

What he says is true, None of the AoE weapons are powerful enough in their own shots to actually kill enemies fast. They just have good damage numbers, but are always tied down due to some other stats in their system.

Example:

  • Fire rate of Lenz
  • Reload of Tonkor after every grenade and high arcing
  • Manual detonation of grenades of Penta.

Why were these weapons even used from start, even though they were so inconvenient? Because at the time of the battle, you can just fire up a shot in the middle of an enemy squad with a rough aim and still release some pressure from your team. Those players did have the risk of killing themselves, but that was either due to the enemy having the explosvie bolt or grenade stuck to their body and running towards you, or another player just blocking the shot, unknowingly. Now, with removal of self damage, one part of equation is fine, other part about the damage fall off is damn not. DOES DE EXPECT EVERY WEAPON TO BE A SNIPER?

 

I can see Kuva Bramma as a reason for this 'rework' but Its DE's soppy fault for making a bow so overpowered that everyone uses it. Good crit and status combined with AoE? that is perfect combination for any weapon, now throw in a charge time of 0.4s and this bow already draws faster than all the bows in the game except Rakta Cernos. See the problem here?

And the only issue with the bow? A damn low accuracy even on accuracy number of 16.7 and higher arcing than most bows, easily solvable. The way these new fixes are delieverd just shows that DE doesn't even play the game they make.

 

Edited by --DSP--CephalonSamara
  • Like 19
Link to post
Share on other sites

Still need to test the changes quite a bit, but FYI: Napalm grenades mod for Penta still causes self damage.

But yeah current issues:

  • Damage falloff is way to high.
  • Kuva Ayanga was nice due to it's large AoE, despite it's already middling damage. Now I don't see the point in using it at all, and it was safe to use already.
  • It's also quite annoying on acceltra since it pushes enemies back, it's quite counterproductive.
  • Concealed explosive mod is now incredibly annoying because it interupts you whenever a exploding knife lands within 10m, sure the staggers are short at that range but even self-dmg was preferable for that mod given their high rate of fire but low explosion dmg.
  • Glaives and other non-explosive weapons are also affected by the damage fall off, please undo that as well.

 

Edited by Wurmheart
  • Like 13
Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a mistake. You have taken the power fantasy of a "so dangerous I'm at risk myself" weapon category and turned them into beanbag throwers.

 

PLEASE revert this horrible decision and return self-damage with appropriate balance/QOL improvements:

  1. Use a formula on self-damage instead of having it be a linear (no matter how small) percentage of output damage. This will allow the different scaling of player health versus player damage to be properly balanced for the risk/reward ratio of the weapons.
  2. Remove allied unit collision for all projectiles with no positive usage case in doing so. This was the #1 argument for "unpredictable" self-damage. It also affects everything else that isn't self-damage - therefore killing the player 'unfairly' was a symptom not the cause.
  3. Consider adding small UI markers on unexploded payloads (example: Elytron archwing payloads in flight) to address concerns about 'bouncing' explosives and forgotten manual-trigger explosives the player is less able to recognise as a risk.
  4. After the above, make a pass on damage output for the ~20 weapons with self-damage risks so that they can be given an appropriate (but not overwhelming) better reward to justify the risk of usage (which is reduced at most levels due to point 1)

That's it. That's all you needed to do.

 

If you wanted to give previously non-self-damage AOE weapons a self-stagger effect to limit them from becoming too predominant over non-AOE weapons, that would be fine. With this, and the balance changes stated above, this would provide an AOE weapon hierarchy with valid choices based on the player's preference and enjoyment (whether they like the risk of death and how immediate a risk) thus:

  1. Minimal risk (Self-Staggering based on proximity) with smallest AOE reward (Less damage or radial falloff)
  2. Moderate risk (Delayed, smart-arming or triggered self-damage) with medium AOE rewards (mid-damage, no/minor falloff)
  3. High risk (Pure Dumbfire self-damage) with highest AOE rewards (definitely no falloff, largest damage)

 

Not every player has to like using every weapon. For every complaint about self-damage, odds are there was a player using self-damage and being fine with it - they just had less reason to speak up because the status quo was in their favour! Do not succumb to confirmation bias!

Give thrill-seeker players their niche back. It was already less than 10% of weapon options to begin with.

Edited by TheLexiConArtist
  • Like 15
Link to post
Share on other sites

They are explosive weapons. EXPLOSIVE. they are supposed to go boom. 50 falloff damage was WAY MORE than enough, too much already, if i must say, and i strongly suggest you to review this again, this is way overkill. this means that pinpoint accuracy will be needed. for AN EXPLOSIVE WEAPON. What the HELL?! I seriously hope you'll change that. This is absolutely atrocious. way overkill. unnecessary. you want explosive weapons to be used, or not?! the explosive radius is why explosive weapons are used... god damnit, guys. this is a complete joke. you can tell us if you don't want players to use explosive weapons, period. this complete and utter nerf basically says "we don't want people using explosive weapons" , so you're gonna nerf the only reason why people use explosive weapons. a grenade launcher that make tickles past 4 meter? a nuclear warhead bow that hugs the enemies past 5? what the #*!% DE? people want explosive weapons to be USED. with fun, AND efficiency, like basically almost every other weapons. your fears are ridiculous, now. we want to be able to use our weapons to their full potential.  this will achieve the exact same thing. explosive weapons aren't worth using, so they aren't used. again. you come full circle. what's the point of explosive weapon if i need to be pinpoint accuracy? none.

you literally achieved what i was scared you would do when taking out self damage. replacing it by something just as worse, making it goes into full circle. you achieved nothing. could you please stop treating AoE weapons like they are unhealthy to the game? as if it was a plague to make sure to silence forever?  if you dislike them so much, straight up delete them and be done with it. the way you treat explosive weapons is a complete joke that isn't making anyone a bit caring for explosive weapons laugh. except you, because if you really think that this is a good way to balance AoE weapon, there must be laughing gas in your office.. heard it was a nice experience. mind sharing a little so i can laugh at this joke of a balance philosophy too?

There shouldn't even be radial falloff to begin with, damnit. Mirage and Tonkor Era are long gone, something that won't happen. if you MUST, then use a 50 falloff, and buff by 30 per cent the damages. explosive weapons are STILL less convenient, and powerful than normal, non-self staggering weapon. how the hell do you answer to that? you are scared of a dream. an impossible one at that... if your plan was in secret to kill any hope of a good AoE explosive weapons, then i must say good job. cause that's what you did, right now. your fears are unjustified, a dream, a chimera. the history of tonkor shouldn't even matter because it is now impossible to do again. we had started to get "good" AoE weapon with bramma and Orgris Kuva, guess we couldn't have that, in the end... they were the only good launchers, too.

'Tactics will be deadly - aim true, Tenno.  "

Ho, sorry, remind me since when there's supposed to be tactics and aiming with a launcher in a videogame? this whole patch just seems like you wanted to absolutely nerf AoE weapons out of spite because of our complains and be done with it.

You can either delete the fall off damage completely, so you know, AOE weapons actually do that, AOE. no one a bit serious would use this kind of weapons when there is way more powerful, and convenient, and fast firing weapons, making your whole stubborness over nerfing launcher useless, when there's better weapons.

or you can also bring back self damage, but at a highly nerfed rate, and still getting rid of the radial falloff. and this new self damage would deal like 10 per cent of a frame's health, after armor and damage reduction. here. balanced. everyone have a chance to survive, no one is truly bothered by it anymore now that they can survive. so you don't have to limit your entire frame selection to a few just to be able to use a loved weapon.

Is the post a bit corrosive ( badum tsss. ) yeah, it is. but when you see "balance" with huge quote like that, you seriously have to wonder if they just don't want launcher to be good, period, or if they genuinely think that launchers are powerful enough to warrant such a nerf. if it is the latter, then they seriously need to play the game with launcher weapons only, without god mod. and then, lets see how quick they realise "wait, this isn't as strong as we thought. why am i using this when i could go for something much better without killing myself", or in this instance, losing basically all your damage of AoE on a AoE weapon. AoE weapons are not the dreaded nightmare for DE that they were in the past. it's over. and they need to wake up from this second dream.

After Test : Yeah, no, that 90 falloff is absolutely ridiculous. this is a launcher, guys. it's supposed to be big and powerful. i reiterate, a 50 per cent falloff or less was already way more than enough, that's just overkill. especially when there is more powerful weapons without such a ridiculous limit.  for solutions, go back to the two ideas i've put in bold / italic.

 

nothing to say about the stagger, seems fair.

Edited by mikakor
  • Like 12
Link to post
Share on other sites

comn, chroma is still perfectly usable, you won't have your max stats on comand, but just play a bit and they will come up, and since you can recast it's not even an issue. Chroma just requires a rework because of his 1 and 4, but his 2 and 3 are still perfectly usable.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Why this mechanic was applied to Pox? This is a gas grenade and not some kind of bomb.

My bad, didn't read it all through

Edited by d3me
Link to post
Share on other sites

Remove self stagger on all weapons that previously didn't do self damage. 

Update would be 1000x better.

Edit: Turns out, the AoE nerf is mitigated with the enemy armor nerf. its still noticible, though Its not has horrible as I thought it would me. Good on you DE.

 

Edited by Aadi880
  • Like 8
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, AustriaGamer1 said:

I've noticed if you're too close to the center of the explosion of a bramma for some reason it only does a mild knockback instead of the full knockdown

Probably because the damage dropoff is amazingly steep. You might have to be at ground zero to get knocked down.

Link to post
Share on other sites

90% fall of is way to high, all the fun of the weapons tested so far is gone. Why? How could yo go from +20% damage and 50% fall of to no additional damage and 90% fall of in less than a week ? What was a possible good became a more than huge nerf.

 

And coupled with the change to the blast status, it is even worst.

 

Please give us the fun of the explosivve weapon back.

 

  • Like 12
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, --DSP--CephalonSamara said:

Just asking, but is concealed explosives mod still viable for chroma after this update? My game is under update, so I cannot confirm.

Concealed Explosives no longer has self damage, so nope.

Despite its staggers being fairly small I feel like that ruins whatever small niche concealed explosives had outside of chroma then, any explosion within 10m will interupt you...

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Wurmheart said:

Concealed Explosives no longer has self damage, so nope.

Despite its staggers being fairly small I feel like that ruins whatever small niche concealed explosives had outside of chroma then, any explosion within 10m will interupt you...

yeah that radius is pretty insane

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry but this is completely screwed up. This is the state of explosive weapons now. You can literally play as a walking explosion.

temp.gif

You've basically removed Self-Damage completely by applying this change to Primed Sure-Footed. Which also means you've given a massive lazy strategy that people will have to wait years for.

Edited by RX-3DR
  • Like 12
Link to post
Share on other sites

I will reiterate what I posted yesterday.

The change to a 90% damage Falloff from center is unnecessarily harsh. It is attempting to address the problem of Point Blank AoE weapon spam, and just eating the Stagger. Especially on "safe" frames like Invisibles (ash, loki, ivara, octavia) and Invulnerables (rhino, nezha, nidus).

This Falloff fundamentally changes the nature of AoE weapons, and makes them just another accuracy weapon. No more air-bursts with Pentas, no more center of group shots. In short they stop being Area of Effect weapons. 

There is another solution to this problem.

Reduce the Damage if the Shooter is inside the blast AoE. This preserves the Area of Effect aspect of these weapons, while further punishing sloppy close range shooting. If a Loki or Octavia is shooting a Kuva Ogris point blank, at their feet, reduce the damage by up to 90% (99%, or even 100%). If they aren't face spamming, don't punish them for using the weapon correctly at range.

DE is already doing a distance calculation from impact point to Shooter for the Stagger intensity, this makes the damage adjustment "free". Compared to having to check the distance of every enemy AI pawn inside the blast radius, and give it a different damage calculation. More efficient code, for a more precise solution.

Please, do not punish AoE weapons unnecessarily when better paths to the result you want exist.

Edited by Brasten
  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Massive self stagger effect on Staticor charged shots, not even a mod to eliminate this since the only mod to reduce self stagger is for rifles only, nothing for pistols at all.

Result, mediocre gun that before patch was used for low content (useless for high level content) is now turned completely useless.

Staticor didnt even do any self-damage before patch, why on Earth did DE add self-stagger to this???

Thank you DE, I'll look for other games, not in the mood for this silliness.

Edited by IIAc3sII
  • Like 16
Link to post
Share on other sites

After very much looking forward to this update, I have to say the newly introduced stagger on AoE weps is super un fun and frustrating. Did anybody at DE have some sustained playtime with some of the most popular weapons in the game that received these self stagger procs? I doubt I'll ever use my staticor again if these changes stay 😞 I mostly play solo so perhaps this is just me, staying out of the fray of my AoE is pretty difficult when solo.

While I think that many, in fact most, of the changes in this update are excellent at best and at worst still a step in the right direction, this one is straight up anti-fun imo.

Please remove the self stagger mechanic.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, IIAc3sII said:

Massive self stagger effect on Staticor charged shots, not even a mod to eliminate this since the only mod to reduce self stagger is for rifles only, nothing for pistols at all.

Result, mediocre gun that before patch was used for low content (useless for high level content) is now turned completely useless.

Thank you DE, I'll play other games for now.

yep my favorite secondary is S#&$ now. Aoe falloff dmg 90 percent, stagger everyone that goes melee... cheers

 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...