Jump to content
(XB1)WarBelly

Warframe Revised: Removing Self-Damage / Stagger Megathread

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, NovusKnight said:

Has anyone tried the Komorex with a pure viral build? that thing is DEVASTATING! it has insane status chance, fire rate, and a large AoE , but where this previously instantly-killed you if you mis-clicked - which was in a way encouraged due to high fire-rate, lower damage than other snipers, and large magazine - now it does not.

I actually disagree with that last part. Strongly. I also have a Komorex but where mildly chipping myself with Viral was a thing, now it's debilitating when things are rushing close. It took real effort to kill myself with that thing before but now it puts me in a serious bind instead. I say this as a Lenz lover so I'm no stranger to self-detonation.

Shield-Gate was all the self-damage protection I was ever gonna need. The 90% falloff just murders both weapons (and several others). Even 50% would have been a harsh penalty with nothing gained for it, but 90%?

Edited by Aryustailm
spelling
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, TheLexiConArtist said:

Good god that's way too much waffling on what is a baseless set of claims from the outset. Just because you shout 'fact' louder does not make it more accurate.

The original Tonkor was objectively more powerful than it had any right to be and had no risk downside to compensate, which is why it was still broken when its output was quartered (200% auto-headshot 200% headcrit) and remained overbearing until self-damage was properly introduced.

It's mind-boggling how you can get some things so right (that self-damage wasn't a problem if you mastered your weapon) yet draw such a staggeringly wrong conclusion (that its removal was justified, that it wasn't a balance factor).

Moment to moment, you are constantly judging whether your self-damage is going to be a risk to you if you pull the trigger then and there. You proactively (albeit however subconsciously) assess and plan, choosing not to shoot here and directing yourself there where you can let loose. Compare to no self-damage, where you just mindlessly walk and click at any given moment without concerns, and compare again this awful-feeling stagger and knockdown, where you reactively respond (try to do the timing thing).

Downing yourself isn't 'much' of a downside, but it's still a real risk (can't revive forever). Not just a jarring inconvenience but a real deterrent.

 

Self-damage removal was always going to cause collateral damage. Hesitating on giving it to the Tonkor (and since it wasn't viable for the Simulor, finding a mechanical change for that in its uniqueness) caused collateral damage to all launchers. Removing it from all launchers has caused collateral damage to other AOEs to compensate.

Simple solution? Softer falloff than the current mess on the 'non self-damaging AOEs' where they became a problem, while self-damage AOEs are exempt from falloff as the damage risks are already present. Damage passes accordingly - dumbfire like the Ogris would get a better margin for output. No staggers, because that just feels crap.

Yes, it stays as accurate as it always was: completely accurate.

 

The FACT of the matter is that the Tonkor was indeed stronger than it should have been, and the FACT of the matter is that DE did resolve that issue, not by adding self damage, but by nerfing the damage on the weapon over and over again until it's output became bad. The Tonkor has not and does not have good damage output anymore, because of the statistical changes outside of self damage. Self damage has no influence on the fact that, in a self-damage free vacuum, the weapon is objectively weak, because you know, they actually #*!%ing balanced it in a way that makes sense (other than arguably overnerfing it into being used only for S#&$s and giggles).

 

See the thing is, I'm getting everything right, because unlike you I'm not completely blinded by bias.

 

>Self-damage removal was always going to cause collateral damage.

 

No it wasn't. This is just a ridiculous fallacy that seems to have spread amongst gaming communities that somehow for some reason, there "must" be "concequences" for making non-balance related QoL adjustments or even direct balance adjustments.

 

naturally neither is true. It isn't actually necessary at all to make balance changes in response to QoL fixes, nor is it even required if the change DOES heavily affect balance. After all sometimes things just need to be buffed, and in a PvE game to a certain extent, a degree of imbalance is not a problem so long as it's fun for players.

 

For example, suppose I bought into the silly idea that removing self damage really would make explosive weapons viable suddenly. Great, fantastic. They #*!%ing suck so they need the help. There's no requirement that for some reason anything needs to replace or compensate for this change inherently. In point of fact, this is exactly such a situation. While I'm ok with the new stagger mechanic being in the game, even that isn't truly necessary if none of the weapons are kill-y enough to allow players to complete rewarding objectives more quickly in the first place. Instead it makes sense only as an aspect of gameplay flavor that kinda fits when blowing yourself up. It could be removed as easily as kept in, as it really only impacts the feel of playing the game due to insignificant relevance to balance (too easy to avoid it ever happening, can be cheaply negated with mods, doesn't even matter much when it does happen).

 

Funnily enough, if I actually bought the ridiculous proposition that self damage is oh so very impactful this statement

>Downing yourself isn't 'much' of a downside, but it's still a real risk (can't revive forever). Not just a jarring inconvenience but a real deterrent.

 

Becomes quite silly. downing yourself isn't much of a downside you're right, in fact it could be said that it's a jarring inconvenience that has no real impact outside of arbitrations. The thing is that due to the fact that frankly, warframe is a bit janky, often means you're not dying to any kind of skill this is alleged to require, but due to some bug or random bs beyond your control. The shift from damage to stagger actually keeps the gameplay impact really similar, except you don't lose affinity, and it since it's slightly less inconvenient, it feels more "fair" when you will inevitably be staggered by invisible terrain or an allie parking their ass on your face.

Now since stagger in fact does have a similar impact on your actual gameplay up to and until you've burned through probably 4+ revives, more if you aren't playing solo, then the stagger element is in fact serving to "balance" these weapons. Since they're also pretty weak, that would make the AoE changes pretty god damn superfluous.

 

Furthermore, if this is supposed to be a deterrent well, it sure sounds like you like stagger even less than the brief inconvenience of downing, so if anything these weapons ought to be buffed to compensate. . . .

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

No-sell self-derpage was always stupid looking, we just learned to ignore it.

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I don't know exactly what you're referring to at the start of that (non-self-damage? Instant kills?)

Derping ourselves with our weapons and showing "no sell", I.e. no interaction with the special non-self-damage explosions like the Staticor's, or even the Bramma's grenades for that matter. 

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I don't know exactly what you're referring to at the start of that (non-self-damage? Instant kills?) but I can honestly say the first thing I did was take my explosives various beanbag guns out for a few spins and the flinching/staggering is anything but fluid and intuitive. You happen to have an Exilus on there softening the impacts or something?

No, I really don't, and I'm not sure how the effect could be so different for you. Some of my frames do use Constitution, but. = / Whether it's a flinch or the full kickback, everything is directional, dynamic, and fluid in the animations. Seeing my frame knocked flat only to roll over in the direction I'm hitting into a recovery instead of the same ancient standing up animation is just an incredible improvement. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, yakri said:

Yes, it stays as accurate as it always was: completely accurate.

No, you're just performing the textual equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and going 'LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING' while shouting out your completely illogical nonsense statements.

Frankly, it's not worth the risk of diluting legitimate arguments with others who are actually trying. You're either intentionally trolling or too simple to even put up a genuine rebuttal that isn't "I'm right therefore it's accurate". All you seem to be able to comprehend is the most superficial level, not the broader picture or the complexity of balancing numerous things against numerous others (in numerous different ways, at that).

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

No, you're just performing the textual equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and going 'LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING' while shouting out your completely illogical nonsense statements.

Frankly, it's not worth the risk of diluting legitimate arguments with others who are actually trying. You're either intentionally trolling or too simple to even put up a genuine rebuttal that isn't "I'm right therefore it's accurate". All you seem to be able to comprehend is the most superficial level, not the broader picture or the complexity of balancing numerous things against numerous others (in numerous different ways, at that).

Completely logical accurate statements, which below I backed up with reasoning, examples, and explanations. 

 

But of course, you're putting your hands over your ears and shutting that out since you don't want to acknowledge how ridiculous your irrational and illogical your baseless views are, which you haven't supported or thought through.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, CopperBezel said:

Derping ourselves with our weapons and showing "no sell", I.e. no interaction with the special non-self-damage explosions like the Staticor's, or even the Bramma's grenades for that matter. 

No, I really don't, and I'm not sure how the effect could be so different for you. Some of my frames do use Constitution, but. = / Whether it's a flinch or the full kickback, everything is directional, dynamic, and fluid in the animations. Seeing my frame knocked flat only to roll over in the direction I'm hitting into a recovery instead of the same ancient standing up animation is just an incredible improvement. 

Ah, thanks for clarifying. Yeah, I actually disagreed with even removing self-damage from the Zarr's mortar cluster, even if that one did skirt the line of predictability.  Debating the efficacy of things like the Staticor is a related but not identical question to that of self-damage though. Maybe some of those could have just used a falloff mechanic to lessen their 'AOE' edge as trase for their safety, albeit not as obscene as we're experiencing currently, while self-damage risk meant certainly no falloff. Staggers could be another alternative for those lesser-risky, although from what I've experienced it's so jarring that.. maybe it's not worth it. But either way, attention should have been paid to the 'operating distance' - just like how Simulor couldn't be treated with self-damage to fix its overpowering meta since players would be in the radius more often than not.

Maybe we're just focusing on the wrong aspects of it? The animation and directionality, sure, I might give you that (although as stated, animations can obscure the knockdown recovery from what I've seen) but in terms of impact on gameplay flow, it's about as infuriating as being stuck in a Quick Thinking loop, or being teabagged by a platoon of Rollers, or getting yoyo'd between the knockdown of Ancients/Shield Lancers/what-have-you. Animations aren't much of a condolence to that interference, in my opinion.

I suppose at least the knockdown isn't quite as bad as the old Isolator Bursa forever-prone though..!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hotfix update

 

Non self damage weapons still have stagger attached, damage falloff radius changed but really DE at least IMO I would rather have reduced damage on my AOE non self damage weapons then the stagger.... Lesser of the two evils.

It changes the flow of game play, this game went from a smooth playing fast paced horde loot shooter to something that just doesn't feel right... Please remove stagger from AOE non self damage weapons until you figure something else out.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the Bramma Feels better than Ever. I can point Black shoot enemies so the falloff doesn't matter, and Frames can just be immune to Stagger from mods or abilities.  The Stagger, then, doesn't really detour you from spamming explosions carelessly.

Weapons that gained stagger like the Astilla, Tombfinger, and Kuva Charrkur - They had such a small radius adding falloff destroys the very nature of what they do. Astilla's Damage WAS the radial blast. These weapons weren't the Problem.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the new hotfix solved actually nothing. Falloff range has to go and self stagger has to be restricted to former self damage weapons. Except the bramma no explosive weapon was even worth considering not just because of self damage but also because they were just bad. Bramma is were explosive weapons should have been buffed to to compete with melee weapons. Now they're just all kinda trash tier to maybe mediocre.

Self stagger and falloff range on amps has to go aswell. Shraksun scaffold is basically unusable now and propa scaffold got a lot worse while already being very annoying to use.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Ah, thanks for clarifying. Yeah, I actually disagreed with even removing self-damage from the Zarr's mortar cluster, even if that one did skirt the line of predictability.  Debating the efficacy of things like the Staticor is a related but not identical question to that of self-damage though. Maybe some of those could have just used a falloff mechanic to lessen their 'AOE' edge as trase for their safety, albeit not as obscene as we're experiencing currently, while self-damage risk meant certainly no falloff. Staggers could be another alternative for those lesser-risky, although from what I've experienced it's so jarring that.. maybe it's not worth it. But either way, attention should have been paid to the 'operating distance' - just like how Simulor couldn't be treated with self-damage to fix its overpowering meta since players would be in the radius more often than not.

Maybe we're just focusing on the wrong aspects of it? The animation and directionality, sure, I might give you that (although as stated, animations can obscure the knockdown recovery from what I've seen) but in terms of impact on gameplay flow, it's about as infuriating as being stuck in a Quick Thinking loop, or being teabagged by a platoon of Rollers, or getting yoyo'd between the knockdown of Ancients/Shield Lancers/what-have-you. Animations aren't much of a condolence to that interference, in my opinion.

I suppose at least the knockdown isn't quite as bad as the old Isolator Bursa forever-prone though..!

Yeah, I guess since whether it's a flinch or a full knockback, the new effect is still a one-off, since you can't be firing at the same time, it doesn't bother me. The problem with rollers and Quick Thinking IMO is the loop itself, not the individual effect. I could see reducing the effective radius, yeah.

As for interrupting the flow of gameplay, well, it is a penalty, same as self-damage was, so breaking your rhythm and leaving you exposed - and importantly, giving you your chance for counterplay, and I don't mean the recovery button but your next move in general - is kinda the point. Again, maybe reducing it to the original blast radius at .8 of the current one would make that more fair? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remove the Stagger from the Mutalist Quanta, it's a core gameplay part of that weapon to stand near the bubble.
Remove the Stagger form the Opticor family of weapons, it's just cringe, it's not even a top tier weapon anymore.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

in fact the solution IS already in the game in the name of Kuva Ayanga: if you shoot near you the shell doesnt explode and you don't inflict the damage for both your frame and your enemy

now apply this to kuva bramma or weapons that explode: if you shoot at point blank it will work like a normal bow only doing damage with the arrow and no explosion happening, want to make big boom boom? just spin dash away and fire!

or just create three "subclasses" of projectile:

a) the projectile only hits the mobs (bullets in general, exergis, corinth primary)

b) the projectile travels and shatters itself creating tons of subclass (a) projectiles - this should apply to astilla, corinth secondary and others

c) the projectile explode on contact and has another damage applied, if you shoot near your frame it behaves like a single projectile subclass (a) - (bramma, ayanga, tonkor, zarr)

this is only an example but it solves all the problems and you dont need to staggerlock yourself all the time

 

Edited by Frameandoporae

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Nova Passive has a weird bug with self-stagger. After you take severe self-stagger as Nova, your Nova passive makes you unable to jump.

2. Self-staggering yourself while sliding plays the recovery animation like a hurricane.

3. Window on 'jump' recovery after taking self-stagger is too short.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Yeah, I guess since whether it's a flinch or a full knockback, the new effect is still a one-off, since you can't be firing at the same time, it doesn't bother me. The problem with rollers and Quick Thinking IMO is the loop itself, not the individual effect. I could see reducing the effective radius, yeah.

As for interrupting the flow of gameplay, well, it is a penalty, same as self-damage was, so breaking your rhythm and leaving you exposed - and importantly, giving you your chance for counterplay, and I don't mean the recovery button but your next move in general - is kinda the point. Again, maybe reducing it to the original blast radius at .8 of the current one would make that more fair? 

I concede it's subjective, but for me, it's a vastly different and completely inferior feel. Where self-damage risk was a terminal one you proactively avoid, a thrilling danger, by comparison the stagger is just.. bothersome. With shield-gates to compensate, I didn't even die to the Enhancement sortie enemies while I was deliberately knocking myself around testing the recovery mechanic. So.. Threat minimal, no thrill, only a jarring inconvenience. It doesn't motivate me in the same way to not suffer it, because it's not dangerous, it just happens. Occasionally putting myself on my back? Yeah, I messed up hard, laugh it off, now let's stand back up and pay attention. Revives are finite after all. Stagger locks my controls? I'm just waiting an extra half-second every few, still don't have a reason to care.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having self-damage removed is a long requested change that we players have been waiting for. Warframe is a game mostly focusing on fast-paced and close quarter battles. Without self-damage, we can enjoy the game a lot more. Bravo! Now I am waiting for the new pet system to allow us to switch to any pet we like without the stasis process. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, HeartPurity said:

Having self-damage removed is a long requested change that we players have been waiting for. Warframe is a game mostly focusing on fast-paced and close quarter battles. Without self-damage, we can enjoy the game a lot more. Bravo! Now I am waiting for the new pet system to allow us to switch to any pet we like without the stasis process. 

As a matter of fact, I've never once wanted the removal of self damage. Specifically because I, and others, knew it would lead to ridiculous and pointless nerfs like what we have right now. I suspect that explosive weapons will NEVER be as powerful as they were in the past now, and to be blunt? That pisses me off.

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, (PS4)gadgaurd said:

As a matter of fact, I've never once wanted the removal of self damage. Specifically because I, and others, knew it would lead to ridiculous and pointless nerfs like what we have right now. I suspect that explosive weapons will NEVER be as powerful as they were in the past now, and to be blunt? That pisses me off.

The removal of self-damage does not require the addition of falloff even if they try to make it seem that way. They added massive falloff and nerfed the hell out of numerous weapons that never had self-damage. If those weapons weren't out of line without self-damage, why did they just get staggers (massive in the case of things like staticor) as well as massive damage nerfs? 

They clearly want to butcher AoE damage in general, it isn't a tradeoff for the removal of self-damage (and many probably find the staggers far worse than self-damage). 

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eh, the 90% falloff was only true for a day outside of three guns, and one of those was well understood to be 1) OP and 2) designed in a way that circumvented the effects of the falloff anyway. With the new falloff numbers, it's fine. The fact that different weapons have different falloff rates is good, and the fact that AoE weapons are not flat area kills and have a hotspot is good for gameplay as well. As for the degree to which it's a nerf, eh, all of the meta is in AoE right now, so it's not exactly bad for balance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I don't understand how you introduce the removal of self damage from explosives, and add a totally ANNOYING mechanic similar to throwing away a trash-bag as an alternative "risk factor", we are supposed to be space ninjas pakouring all over the place...... then nerf ALL explosive weapons essentially making them single target weapons because you fear AoE Explosives will be overpowered AS AN ADDITIONAL risk vs reward factor, then outright LYING about not being able to make Cautious Shot a universal mod (because it is now DE...), which could've been a fair trade-off (mod slot for no self dmg).

Add to that operators having to be staggered as well from their weapons...

The shield-gating mechanic is already a perfectly balanced band-aid to the self damage problem we had... You accidentally shot an explosive a bit too close? it's okay your shield will soak that one for you, but now you're vulnerable to death if you shoot wrecklessly for the next 5-8 seconds while your shields recharge.

Go home DE, you're drunk...

Edited by (PS4)MahdeH232
  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing change, but sometimes i feel like the distance from the explosive at wich you're affected is greater than it was with self damage - but I'm not 100% sure about that. 
Also the abbility to recovery from the knockback is a great idea, but difficult to execute during mission, with all the flashy effects it's really hard to hit spacebar at the excat time, maybe a longer time frame could improve it?

And about the nerf to all AoE weapons, it seems understandble, considering their massive damage output, but some of them got hit much stronger than the others. So while bramma remained still pretty strong, zarr became basicly useless. I've yet to try it after the new hotfix, but I'm hoping for more tweaks to individual weapons like it, to ensure their reliability. Keep in mind that, they're already limited by often slow fire rate, or/and small magazine, ammo capacity. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can Corinth get Reverse Falloff Damage.

So it's stronger the farther away enemy is within blast radius.

The gun is designed to be used a clever way and this falloff it has now conflicts with that.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

i do not know, shield gate should be a fine way to mitigate self damage already... and oh god the staggers are way more annoying than self damage will ever be... and i guess the falloff is brutal, work with some weapons, but makes others way underpowered. Operators should not receive the stagger mechanic, the weapons that actually do self damage to them are not that destructive and they don't die, so i do not understand why insert the self stagger there.

PS: is the eidolons attacks doing stagger all over the place or is just a coincidence

Edited by WolfBearHybrid
forgot to add something.
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be fine with the bramma's falloff if it either had more AOE since as is it feels like 'ok that killed... A Guy' vs the 'that killed ALL of the guys... jesus maybe this is overkill.' 

So either change how the damage falloff gradiant is (not sure if possible) tone it down to 75% at the edges, or make an even bigger AOE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And they doubled down on having damage falloff on absolutely every AoE weapon, including #*!%ING STUG.

Can you even visualize this? Someone had to just sit there and think "Well, Stug wasn't S#&$ty enough, I think having damage falloff is a nice idea".

Nothing new, really. DE is "listening to the community feedback" and then whacks you on a skull with something absolutely unreasonable. Because reasons, obviously. Did anyone tell us why majority of the AoE weapons had to suffer yet? If it's the Bramma that was the main concern? I don't think so. They just go silent and wait till people stop complaining, unless this complaining is in line with what they've planned for the game.

Guess Amprex/Nukor/Ignis/Atomos/Gaze are on the chopping block next, since having an AoE ranged weapon is apparently a sin now. Maybe melees afterwards? Having radial damage falloff only on glaives seems to be unfair, this should be added on every other melee too!

You can't take away our toys, make them worse than they were before without a proper justification (yes, justification, not an excuse), and then just shrug it off like nothing has happened. Even if I liked many changes that came with the mainline, none of them were worth this.

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I learned, just now, that it's possible to fail to kill a security camera. I thought those had like 1 health.

Thanks to damage falloff, though, I now know this is not the case. It is in fact possible to not hurt a level 1 security camera enough to make it break... you just need to use our new and "improved" explosives.

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...