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[DE]Bear

Warframe Revised: Removing Self-Damage / Stagger Megathread

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Just noticed that my Sonicor also was added to that list. It now is more or less useless to me ūüėß Plat for a riven + 8 formas lost

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Removal self damage and stagger is great and all but PLEASE not all of them, weapons like Staticor is so unusable 

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Posted (edited)

Here's why you should leave Primed Sure Footed alone:

Like Cautious Shot (which is now useless, by the way) it makes all AOE weapons bearable to use by removing the horrid mission flow interruption for the players who invested time into the game either to log in over time, or previously to play extreme high level missions to get resources to max said mods. Both mods (one of which is now useless by the way) are rank 10 and require a great deal of resources to max, so players should get rewarded for having been able to achieve something in the game. It's a milestone, not a broken mod.

Speaking of broken mods, you guys should buff Cautious Shot to be on par or just slightly worse than Primed Sure Footed before you even go thinking about nerfing Primed Sure Footed. Cautious Shot does not deliver results anywhere close to what it used to before this update, and after the update, PSF is literally the replacement that everybody needs but can't readily access. This is a good thing, correct?

As a sidenote, I really like the mod better than Handspring and I praised Handspring for a long time. I don't know when you guys removed the long and terrible blocking animations that played anytime something did try to knock a player down with Primed Sure Footed equipped, but that was extremely needed to make the mod worth its capacity and forma potential for exilus. Don't forget that there's not very many exilus vazarin mods, so forma'ing for PSF will essentially mean that mod takes up that slot as a staple.

I mostly made this post to refer to someone who posted about it on page 1, and I will be happy to use this post as a reference for if PSF gets changed to ask where the response to feedback is supposed to be should I be unhappy with the next generic "why" given in the hotfix announcements. It's a bad time to be wishy-washy when Cautious Shot was already functioning similarly to how Primed Sure Footed does now when it got buffed to remove 99% Self Damage.

 

TLDR: Buff one before you nerf the other.

I might as well throw in an edit here as well to say that buffing Cautious Shot won't even fix every weapon the way PSF does. Maybe you guys should do something about that if you end up not liking how PSF interacts with your horrible new stagger system.

Edited by Totterson
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Please just revert this set of changes before you even think about putting it out for consoles as it was clearly a failure on every level. Thanks.

I mean, what even is the stated point of iterating upwards if you start out by nerfing everything into the ground, including entire classes of weapons that had nothing to do with self-damage? It boggles the mind.

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3 minutes ago, Totterson said:

leave Primed Sure Footed alone [...] I don't know when you guys removed the long and terrible blocking animations that played anytime something did try to knock a player down with Primed Sure Footed equipped, but that was extremely needed to make the mod worth its capacity and forma potential for exilus. Don't forget that there's not very many exilus vazarin mods, so forma'ing for PSF will essentially mean that mod takes up that slot as a staple.

I have been using PSF and noticed the change after the revision update. I believe the change was intentional, as it coincided with the introduction of knockdown from explosives.

PSF is actually awesome now, and does what it says on the tin. Whereas before it was honestly worse than Handspring, with a comparable effect, way higher capacity cost, a worse polarity, and the opportunity cost of choosing it over one of the other login rewards (not to mention the required login time).

Considering that it competes with Primed Shred, I'd be seriously displeased if it's current functionality was in any way lessened.

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2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I have been using PSF and noticed the change after the revision update. I believe the change was intentional, as it coincided with the introduction of knockdown from explosives.

PSF is actually awesome now, and does what it says on the tin. Whereas before it was honestly worse than Handspring, with a comparable effect, way higher capacity cost, a worse polarity, and the opportunity cost of choosing it over one of the other login rewards (not to mention the required login time).

Considering that it competes with Primed Shred, I'd be seriously displeased if it's current functionality was in any way lessened.

You and me both. I don't think my heart would be able to take it after seeing Excaliboy get slammed. I was never even able to swing that glorious blade. I only had time to look at numbers.

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Posted (edited)

I hate this change on so many levels it's honestly mind-boggling. Why remove self-damage when this strictly diminishes the number of viable weapon/warframe builds?  Okay, maybe people didn't enjoy being downed after continuously spamming their Kuva Brammas.  I certainly didn't enjoy having to pick them back up ten times a mission.

However, if that'st the case, then why replace self-damage with stagger - one of the least fun mechanics in the game?  I shouldn't have to slot in certain mods or play certain frames just to make weapons usable.  Why limit player choice?  Okay, maybe DE couldn't think of another way to stop people from spamming AoE, since the self-damage isn't there anyone.

However, if that's the case, then why have a gigantic falloff?  Surely the stagger is punishment enough for getting caught in the blast.  Why make a class of off-meta weapons even less effective?  Was it really worth it just for the Kuva Bramma?  Why not nerf that one weapon?  Why start with 90%, and then dial it back.  Is it so people would be thankful for making it less bad?  I honestly find this kind of lazy approach to game balancing indefensible.

As if the update wasn't bad enough with the changes it brought to self-damage weapons, DE somehow decided that other AoE weapons, without self damage, needed to be ruined as well.  Why mess with the likes of the Astilla or the Staticor?  Warframe is largely about killing large numbers of enemies quickly.  The best weapons and frames are the ones that do this most effectively.  In other words, AoE is king.  What possible reason could there be for reducing the number of viable AoE weapons?  If Warframe is meant to be about something else, then redesign the core gameplay loop before making specific changes to the arsenal.   

One final note: If I was even remotely invested in hunting Eidolons, I would have probably uninstalled by now.  The change to Itzal was awful. The changes to Chroma and operator amps are worse.  I sure hope they'll add another way of getting arcanes soon.

 

 

Edited by am0rtized
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When i've seen the changes in the devstream i already knew this is a horrible change. I would rather blow myself up 3 times a mission, than getting stagger locked for 3 seconds every time i shoot.
And I wouldn't care if it was only the self damage weapons, because i didn't really use them anyway, but why did you have to add all the weapons to the list that have even a tiny bit of explosion?

Now instead of locking up 1 mod slot on self damage weapons for Cautions Shot, I have to run with primed sure footed or Pain Threshold on every single warframe if i want to use a weapon that has any aoe damage.

TL;DR: revert this, at least on the non self-damage weapons.

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On 2020-03-05 at 2:22 PM, MaxMiddleton said:

hey i cant jump when i get staggered.IDK if it is because of the and handspring mod doing the bug or not just something to check out. 

 

Same here. Using Bramma and Vauban. No handspring. Getting staggered again fixes it.

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Shraksun is not listed but does stagger.

Also the stagger distance of half a step shorter than its absolute maximum range (where it explodes in the air from not hitting anything) is far from "unnoticeable outside extreme inaccuracy"

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Posted (edited)

Whats the point of adding shield gating, adding damage reduction to the shield, and at the same time removing self damage. self damage was never the problem in most cases because most of the time you accept the fact you will take a bit of damage from radius of the explosion to keep momentum and continue mopping up enemies. now if you even graze an explosion you flinch like a *.  If DE wants to keep self stagger in then only viable option is to keep both options and self stagger only if it were to break the warframe's shield, or if the you're dead center in the blast.

Edited by Kizekkun
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Posted (edited)

It was funny to see idiots killing themselves with Kuva Bramma or Shedu, but now Battacor's fully charged railgun staggers me with its weird little explosions.
Staticor was a mediocre weapon for me, now it's even worse. Astilla? What did it do to deserve this!?
And yeah, the damage falloff is bull, it has ruined most explosive weapons for me.

Worst of all, POX? AMPS!?
Amps were actually much better with the miniscule self-damage they could deal, I had to consciously put in some effort to kill my operator with an Amp.
I don't even understand the reasoning behind Cyanex and Pox getting self-stagger. Why, just why?

TL;DR: bad and nonsensical, devs should play their game

Edited by chainsawplayin
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The varying % falloff between different explosive weapons is very confusing and makes behavior inconsistent. Just make it a set number of ~30-50% for all weapons and tune the AOE size to balance.

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You've gutted launchers to appease players who refuse to put any thought into their weapons and kill themselves. Thank you yet again, DE.

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Posted (edited)

Even after 2nd iteration of damage fall off, id say most weapon should only have a maximum of 20-30% fall off.

I'm that small minority that feels that self damage should have stayed, not a fan of the stagger either.

Could have kept self damage, but capped the damage you could take from a single hit to 100-250 (or even 500) damage, then maybe put a no more self damage incurred if below 100hp. As an addition, make it so self damage does trigger arcanes.  


Oh and you should never have added a stagger to operator amps, ever.

Edited by Scopemk2
Missed a point
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Consider removing the self stagger for Zakti : it really messes with the weapon's gimmick, that is to open enemies to melee finishers.

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The 'buff' they gave in the hot fix is simply a fire control measure. Its still trash and nowhere nearly heavy enough to off set their clear intent to destroy the weapon class. 

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Cautious shot doesn't do what's advertised.

What it says: +90% chance to reduce the Stagger effect from self-imposed Radial Attacks.
How it actually behaves: Reduces the Stagger radius from self-imposed Radial Attacks.

I tested this with the Kuva Bramma. Cautious Shot reduced the radius of Full Stagger from 10m to 6m. Even if the mod did work properly, how do you expect us to put it on an amp?
Also, damage falloff for AOE weapons seems entirely unnecessary, but I doubt that will be reverted.

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As a huge fan of explosive weaponry, the damage falloff is very disappointing at such high values.  I don't feel like any explosive weapon should have any more than 50% fall-off at the absolute maximum.  It ruins the already somewhat underwhelming Ogris (my favorite weapon) which should be a large area explosive weapon for groups of enemies, into a weapon that cant even dent higher level groups of enemies with such tremendous damage falloff.  I believe self-damage is more or less fixed with shield gating being a thing.  It stops you from being instantly 1 shot by self damage and gives you a time frame where you need to be more conscientious of your shots.  I would rather self damage just be added back into the game and revert the falloff changes.

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Posted (edited)
2020/3/3 AM1ÁāĻ42ŚąÜ , [DE]Bear ŤĮī:

This ninja recovery window is indicated by a glowing FX on your Warframe.

Nope, based on my test result, the input window happens before the glowing FX appears. Also the FX is only 167ms long. Average human reaction time is 200-300ms. There's no way anyone can use this FX as an indication for recovery input. Please make this window longer and make the FX happen at the beginning of the window

 

There should be some kind of superarmor happening when doing parkour manuevers like bullet jumping, either being able to reduce the stagger level by one (Get flipped over --> Blocking, Blocking --->Not effected at all) or being immune to those stagger. 

Edited by jerrysimon
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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, jerrysimon said:

Nope, based on my test result, the input window happens before the glowing FX appears. Also the FX is only 167ms long. Average human reaction time is 200-300ms. There's no way anyone can use this FX as an indication for recovery input. Please make this window longer and make the FX happen at the beginning of the window

 

There should be some kind of superarmor happening when doing parkour manuevers like bullet jumping, either being able to reduce the stagger level by one (Get flipped over --> Blocking, Blocking --->Not effected at all) or being immune to those stagger. 

I've never noticed the FX, and if it's only that long, I'll never be able to hit it (not even considering latency) anyway. 

And the fact that the frame does not get automatically get up when knocked down is beginning to really annoy me. I don't even use any weapons that stagger, and I think I'm out until stagger gets reverted (or changed to something appropriate). 

 

Edit: also...a flashing FX on my warframe? Which one? This game is nothing but flashing FX on warframes.

Edited by Ham_Grenabe
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3 hours ago, Scopemk2 said:

I'm that small minority that feels that self damage should have stayed, not a fan of the stagger either.

Could have kept self damage, but capped the damage you could take from a single hit to 100-250 (or even 500) damage, then maybe put a no more self damage incurred if below 100hp. As an addition, make it so self damage does trigger arcanes.  

I was neither a fan nor opponent of self-damage. However, seeing the alternative they came up with, that's changing. DE really could have prefaced their bit about self-damage with "We're removing it...but we'll make sure you miss it."

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Posted (edited)

Serioulsy, after the introduction of shield gating and the changes to most elements behaviour there was non need at all to touch selfdamage or AoE launchers/weapons.

- Shield gating would have prevented most instances of self destruction from short range detonations, a touch up on self-damage values would have completed the job

- Most AoE weapons nowadays have some form of safety measure: arming distance, delayed detonation, remotely controlled detonation - or could get it added

- Self damage issues were due mainly from: other players interference, pets and charging enemies with delayed explosives stuck on them that didn't get knocked down by the impact

- Enemies not suffering selfdamage when using launchers at point blank range / allies causing selfdamage not suffering friendly fire thus learning consideration for other players

So far the entire circus around self damage and AoE weapons has proven to be a massive waste of time and developement time - because it was already mostly solved!

Tl:Dr - Good job breaking it DE! Like Itzal's #1!

Edited by Ikusias
added emphasis on the main issue
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Not sure how this could have happened but in one update just a single update all my main weapons died for the sins of people with poor aim I'm really not sure what to even say...

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4 hours ago, Drago55577 said:

You've gutted launchers to appease players who refuse to put any thought into their weapons and kill themselves. Thank you yet again, DE.

No, they've gutted launchers because of people like you hysterically screeching at them about how a category of weapon that was almost universally regarded as mediocre to awful was so gamebreakingly powerful that they needed a massive downside.

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