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[DE]Bear

Warframe Revised: Removing Self-Damage / Stagger Megathread

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3 minutes ago, zuraja said:

No, they've gutted launchers because of people like you hysterically screeching at them about how a category of weapon that was almost universally regarded as mediocre to awful was so gamebreakingly powerful that they needed a massive downside.

Wrong. They did it because players didn't like seeing others with the bramma and didn't like the self damage. 

I didn't mind either. I enjoyed the Bramma. Heck, the Acceltra became one of my favorite weapons. I'm someone who doesn't get upset nor annoyed with what weapons and frames people use. Someone's using the Bramma? My response is "cool." Someone's using Saryn and nuking the map? My response is "cool". It didn't bother me. I didn't want any of these changes especially when killing myself with my own Bramma made me laugh. I even didn't ask for a cautious shot type mod for the Bramma and even if it got made I would not have used it. 

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On 2020-03-05 at 10:44 AM, abhi1913 said:

Love the effort u guys putting into these changes and I like majority of the changes,

However,90% DMG fall off is a lott,it defeats the purpose of calling them AOE weapons,50% is acceptable but -90% will kill majority of AOE weapons, because the AOE weapons aren't as powerful as you think,only kuva bramma is a broken powerful weapon and u can nerf it 

But please don't make other AOE weapons suffer...they are already not that powerful honestly 

I disagree with nerfing aoe weapons . i think self damage is what kept them great. High risk high reward( self damage was in and of its self a natural balance but people were whining because they want power with no drawbacks and all this has lead to is a massive nerf of perfectly fine weapons). Nerfing weapons that people have developed the skill to use( bramma is great with zephyr in the void) because others dont have the patience to do the same is just lazy and a bit of cowardice instead of just telling them to get better and control their trigger finger twitch (or make cautious shot work on them.....easy fix) 

This is just my opinion nothing more

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I personally enjoy all of the radial damage weapons more now that I feel like I'm being rewarded for aiming them more directly at the targets that I need killed faster. I know that they are technically worse than they were before in several ways, but it's refreshing to have a mechanic in the game that asks for more precision.

I also really enjoy the quick getup mechanic for staggers and knockdowns. I'm not too good at using it yet, but I'm hoping as I get better I'll be able to stop being so afraid of being knocked over and getting gunned down with no way to protect myself further.

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My Staticor is completely ruined!

It is unplayable in its new state; nearly every shot sends me to the ground and all but a tiny remaining fraction of its damage capabilities have been rendered inert. And, my consolation prize is that after 600 or 900 login's I may get to use this again with Primed Sure Footed?

The real damage by these changes is my trust in DE as a player.

My Staticor represents hundreds of hours of gameplay (polarizing/resetting, collecting mods, collecting endo, collecting Kuva, running the Index for credits) and purchased platinum to buy Catalysts and trade for Staticor specific Rivens. And, in a single update, all of the time and effort I put into buying, trading, and crafting this into my favorite weapon was completely undone, and, I am left with impotent, well forma'd, garbage.

I spent half the day today, playing through the new changes and running relics to finish getting parts for a Tigris Prime.  I have wanted to get that gun since I started playing Warframe in 2018, and, I've been very excited to try and get this ever since it was un-vaulted earlier this month.  After finally getting all the pieces this afternoon and queuing my Tigris prime up in the foundry, I started looking at what Rivens I could get and how much forma I would need to make this gun a force to be reckoned with!  

Then, looking at my very broken Staticor, it hit me.  Why?  What would be the point?  I will spend hundreds of hours building a Tigris Prime into the gun I want it to be... And then what?  Some future rework will make it so that every time I fire my Tigris Prime I will get blown across the room?  And, then only way it will do the damage it used to will be to get so close I have to practically insert the barrel in a Grineer's mouth before I fire?

The intentional decay of all the time and effort I have put into my weapons absolutely ruins this game for me.  If all the time I spend grinding, collecting, trading, and updating can, and have, been undone by my benevolent overlords on any given weekend without cause or compensation...then why should I put in effort or plat into any of it in the first place?


We have had good run.  Up until now, this has been my favorite game.  I have played at least an hour or so every day ever since I started.  I enjoyed TennoCon last year, and I was looking forward to it again this year (I had such plans for Baro this time).  But, at this point I don't have the trust to put anymore time into this.  I am uninstalling and leaving 1000's in purchased plat, my primes, and my now nerfed weapons to collect digital dust on DE's servers.

So long Tenno, and thanks for all the fish!

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Was it really necessary to nerf the Sonicor, a weapon that never caused self damage like this? You can't walk and shoot without staggering now.

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please remove the stagger effect off the guns that didn't do self damage 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, zuraja said:

No, they've gutted launchers because of people like you hysterically screeching at them about how a category of weapon that was almost universally regarded as mediocre to awful was so gamebreakingly powerful that they needed a massive downside.

Hello? Are you okay? I have never at any point complained about launchers. I was a massive user of launchers and I used them nearly exclusively for 4 hour+ endurance runs. I am a supporter of lethal self damage and think anyone speaking against it is a garbage player. I'm also a strong opponent if the nerf balancing DE is so fond of. I want the Telos Boltace back, I want the Simulor back, I want launchers and other primaries to be buffed so they're not vastly outclassed by melee weapons.

You seem to have mixed me up with some sort of casual, what with these baseless assumptions. I thought launchers were fine. They didn't need to be touched and good team coordination made them more than usable in high tier gameplay.

The new patch was completely unnecessary, broke so many weapons and did nothing they said it needed to. They made massive changes while showing they have absolutely no understanding of their game or it's end game meta with minmaxed builds. 

As far as I can tell, you're the one screeching at people who have nothing to do with your problem.

 

EDIT: Like really, launchers, accuracy? Do you not understand the point of aoe weapons DE? Do you not understand how vastly outclassed they are by melee in both dps and aoe, yet you buff melee and nerf launchers in the same patch? While buffing crit with viral, lowering weights to damage statuses nerfing status guns which increases the power gap between status and crit/hybrid (mostly melee with blood rush and weeping wounds), and works as a massive melee buff being the only weapons that can use new status mechanics effectively with their incredibly bloated mods.

This patch is probably one of the worst patches you have ever put out, and reveals a massive problem with your nerf things into the ground "balancing".

Edited by Drago55577
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12 минут назад, Drago55577 сказал:

The new patch was completely unnecessary, broke so many weapons and did nothing they said it needed to. They made massive changes while showing they have absolutely no understanding of their game or it's end game meta with minmaxed builds. 

My thoughts exactly.  The change broke every AoE weapon  in order to tone down Acceletra and Bramma. You know, nerfing 2 OP weapons is better then nerfing a whole class of weapons, that never deserved it.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Vivicector said:

My thoughts exactly.  The change broke every AoE weapon  in order to tone down Acceletra and Bramma. You know, nerfing 2 OP weapons is better then nerfing a whole class of weapons, that never deserved it.

God, they're not even that good. They clearly don't care about how good they are with how they're casualizing the game, they just want to appease bad players who complain, like they always do.

The massive reductions to enemy scaling are pretty much proof of this. There end game was what, level 100? I have weapons and builds that can one shot level 250+ grineer, who are practically now paper.

 

Edit: to clarify, the weapons are good but they're not omg op

Edited by Drago55577

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2 минуты назад, Drago55577 сказал:

The massive reductions to enemy scaling are pretty much proof of this. There end game was what, level 100? I have weapons and builds that can one shot level 250+ grineer, who are practically now paper.

Well, yea. I have mixed feelings about the scaling (basically, I believe the whole balance should be redone, bringing everything closer together while making high level encounters harder), but this is outside the current thread. 

Those weapons are OP in the speedclearing meta that is currently present. Basically, Acceletra allows you to run and gun in the general direction you believe the enemies are. No skill involved. 

Also, a fun point. When a weapon was good enough, no one cared about self damage. Take the old Lenz. Or the old Tonkor, hard to use, but dealing crazy damage. Suddenly, they were popular even despite all the shortcomings. Self damage is only an issue for bad players, but those will always have something to complain as being too hard. Well, feeding leeches up to lvl 5 is one thing.

My only hope now is devs will have balls to acknowledge the failure and revert the change. Its better then fixing a non-existant problem by breaking the whole class and the whole gameplay style.

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Why did you add the astilla and staticor to the S#&$ list now? Just leave them alone.

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Oh, one more thing...
If we're forced to deal with self-induced stagger, why should the enemy be immune to it?

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I would like to report current bug that prevent warframe from jumping (any form) after being affected by stagger of explosion.
I'm using Kuva brama, and if I arm the Kuva Brama very close to warframe feet, close enough to make warframe perform block animation (not to mistake with roll back animation if arm farther). and this will case above bug.

The bug can only be solved by perform the close arming again but make warframe back roll instead of blocking.
this bug may case troublesome for who dont know it, hope DE will fix it in next patch.

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Why do Operators need to deal with this stagger mechanic? If you wanted to nerf the firerate of the explosive Scaffolds, do it directly. It's especially bad on enemies that aren't 1-shot, because the Void proc will throw your explosive in a random direction. (Speaking of which, when are we getting a real Void proc?)

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Just did Eidolons... please revert AMPs away from stagger and AOE fall of range. There is too much going on to no get staggered. The fight and now extended do to not being about to hit more than one joint with a well placed shot. With the coming currency to buy arcanes you are only damaging older content.

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On 2020-03-02 at 7:42 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Self Damage Changes:

We are getting rid of Self Damage and replacing it with something else: instead of Self Damage, it’s now ‘Stagger’. This change completely removes the chance of killing yourself, and instead now creates scenarios where you will interrupt yourself - or ‘Stagger’ - to varying degrees if you aren’t careful. 


The degrees of Self-Interrupt start with a small stumble all the way to full knockdown depending on how close you are to the center of explosion. Any Mods referring to Self Damage will be converted to acknowledge Stagger.

 

With this Self-Interrupt system, we have added dozens of new recovery animations that harness a ninja-like recovery experience. By pressing ‘Jump’ at the correct time, you can execute a ninja-skill-based knockdown recovery to ALL in-game knockdowns. This ninja recovery window is indicated by a glowing FX on your Warframe.
 

In addition to Self Damage being removed, some of the more powerful AOE weapons without Self Damage presently will have the Stagger added, but it should only be noticeable in cases of extreme inaccuracy on the player’s part. The Weapons include:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Kuva Chakkurr
Opticor
Opticor Vandal
Battacor
Simulor
Synoid Simulor
Ferrox

Astilla
Shedu
Kuva Seer
Cyanex
Staticor
Pox
Tombfinger
Granmu Prism
Exard Scaffold

 

In the original Dev Workshop, we said:
As a result of this overall systemic change, Weapons with Stagger will be getting approximately a 20% buff in Damage, with any weapons with AOE receiving a 50% Radial Damage Falloff from central impact. 

 

This is no longer accurate after continued testing. What we are doing now is:

No damage buffs have been added, but any weapons with AOE are receiving ~20% increase in Radius. Additionally, AOE weapons are receiving a 90% Radial Damage Falloff from central impact. This means on the very outer section of the explosion Radius 10% of the Damage will be dealt. Tactics will be deadly - aim true, Tenno.
 

Why: Several players brought up the history of the Tonkor and we want to make sure we ship this change in a place that’s conservative in its starting point from a balance perspective. The complete removal of Self Damage does change the pace of destruction with some of the game’s most powerful weapons, so we want to make sure we can iterate upwardly instead of releasing a bonanza of explosions with no other choices. 

 

With the removal of Self Damage, Cautious Shot Mod has been changed to be Rifle compatible and reflect the new Stagger mechanic:

 

  • +90% chance to reduce the Stagger effect from self-imposed Radial Attacks.

 

 

Please remember to leave your feedback in a constructive and civil manner! Remember, this thread is for FEEDBACK ONLY. If you have a bug, please make sure you submit your bug on this thread and follow the new guidelines!

My feedback is; for the love of whatever you hold dear, please undo the damage nerf to launchers. I'd understand a bit of a nerf, but even with the latest patch, it's still too extreme for most. Alternatively; keep the radial damage nerf, but do provide us with the promised damage boost -if things get hit face-on with a rocket launcher carrying a viral load that also sets them on fire, I want that thing deleted, not mildly inconvenienced.

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Posted (edited)

Implementation is horrible. Why does Kuva Seer have a knockdown? Why do operator amps? Why does Tombfinger have AOE falloff? Like, really DE...

Why did launchers need an AOE nerf? Cautious shot existed since forever - yet none of the launchers were OP meta because of it. Why not just bake the cautious shot numbers into the weapons themselves and be done with it? Was it because of Bramma? Nerf Bramma then. Don't take the whole weapon category with it.

The whole change feels like cutting off a leg because you broke a nail on it, really.

Edited by Serafim_94
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1 minute ago, Serafim_94 said:

Implementation is horrible. Why does Seer have a knockdown? Why do operator amps? Why does Tombfinger have AOE falloff? Like, really DE...

Why did launchers need an AOE nerf? Cautious shot existed since forever - yet none of the launchers were OP meta because of it. Why not just bake the cautious shot numbers into the weapons themselves and be done with it? Was it because of Bramma? Nerf Bramma then. Don't take the whole weapon category with it. 

As much as I agree that this is an awful outcome, I have to say absolutely no to baking in the casual-mode mod's effects. And no, inverting it to offering an optional 'risky shot' mod isn't any better. Danger should be the rule, not the exception. Opt-out, if at all, because you're opting in by choosing something from the small niche of weapons that have had it.

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Posted (edited)
22 минуты назад, TheLexiConArtist сказал:

As much as I agree that this is an awful outcome, I have to say absolutely no to baking in the casual-mode mod's effects. And no, inverting it to offering an optional 'risky shot' mod isn't any better. Danger should be the rule, not the exception. Opt-out, if at all, because you're opting in by choosing something from the small niche of weapons that have had it.

Well, I assume the intention behind the whole thing was to remove AOE self-damage completely. It was a well-complained feature of the game. There are CLEARLY better ways to go about it though. We actually HAD that better way in form of Cautious shot. It was enough of a solution until Bramma came.

Edited by Serafim_94

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Removing the self-damage is fine with me, because when I interacted with self damage it was usually "oops, a teammate walked in front of me while i was firing and my framerate is below 30 so i couldn't correct in time to not die". The new stagger is... ehhh? I guess it's fun to shoot my Kulstar at my feet now? It's really annoying trying to use the new Kuva Seer in close range though since your Warframe interrupts themselves to cringe every time you shoot someone up against you.

What I'm not convinced I like is the quick-getup skill test tied to the whole knockdown mechanic in general. For, uh, the exact same reason that I like self-damage being dead. It's just straight up not something people with suboptimal framerates are gonna be able to do with any consistency, and without the ability to just mash it out, I feel like I'm just randomly timing it and sometimes I get it, and sometimes my warframe is lying on their back for anywhere from one to five seconds depending on what actually happened to knock me down in the first place. I stopped bothering trying to get the timing VERY quickly.

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The  stagger mechanic is a disaster for operator amps, shraksun, granmu and especially PROPA.

You are basically forced to stay in void mode all the time, and for propa, if you're at the edge of the explosion radius, you're staggered ...

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1 hour ago, Serafim_94 said:

I assume the intention behind the whole thing was to remove AOE self-damage completely.

Apparently their solution was to remove AOE damage completely and punish you with stagger for using certain weapons anyways.

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Hi, maybe if a stagger alternative is being sought, might I suggest inhibitive screen effects as an alternative if some consequence is insisted. 

Super-bright lights for Tech explosions (Staticor, Simulor, Lenz etc)

  • Darkening effect of surroundings, except for HDR.

 Blurry concussions for Primitive blasts (Ogris, Penta)

  • Some blur and chromatic aberration

 Goo stains for Stug, Mutalist Quanta, and other oddities.

  • Not 100% opaque, and maybe 60% screen coverage. 

It's thematic, doesn't take away movement, visceral, maybe even fun if it doesn't last more than 3 seconds.

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So, DE, if you're still reading this and other threads on it? It seems the consensus is:

 

Adding self-interruption to explosions that never did self damage was a terrible idea.

 

Adding the damage fall off was a terrible idea.

 

Undo both of those ASAP, please. I hate to be that guy, but as it stands I'm seriously going to drop Warframe if you all keep deciding(based on seemingly flimsy logic) that ONE specific form of AoE damage needs to be nerfed, while completely ignoring things like automatic shotguns with punchthrough, beam weapons, warframe abilities and melee weapons modded with range.

 

Yes, I have other options to achieve basically the same kill times and numbers as the best explosive weapon, the Bramma(pre nerf), and can easily surpass all other explosive weapons pre nerf. But I shouldn't have to choose those other options just because you have a problem with one particular option. Now if you simply don't want one option to be vastly more popular than the rest, and will nerf it just because you feel people are having too much fun with it compared to other weapons(instead of buffing other weapons), then you can go ahead and do that. But that's not an environment I want to be a part of. I'm not going to sit around wondering if my new fun AND efficient murder tool is going to be nerfed because it's "too good at it's job", while other options that have been around for months or years straight up outperform it. No one with a Bramma was outperforming the Mesa, the Saryn, or the Ember, and depending on the map they'd struggle to match someone mashing the melee button or running down hallways holding the fire button with a Larkspur, Pyrana Prime or an Ignis Wraith.

 

So yeah. This sucks, and it may very well be the final nail in the coffin for my time as a Tenno.

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Really not a fan of stagger applied to operator. I would take back the tiny 2-3 damage from my granmu prism everyday over being KO'd down.

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