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Warframe Revised: Removing Self-Damage / Stagger Megathread

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Accurate, and yet, with that very same logic they wouldn't have removed self-damage, since it wasn't necessary.

I'm pretty sure this boat has sailed already. It is extremely unlikely that self-damage will be returning, and we're almost certainly stuck with universal coding for radial damage and stagger. Discussion about whether it should have changed is helpful only for how player opinion affects future dramatic gameplay changes.

We need to deal with the system that now exists and find ways to make it better. And since it seems like it started out just about as badly balanced as possible, that should mean we can only go up from here.

That isn't an insult by the way, it seems clear from the patch notes that the plan was to do exactly that; start out with worst case and then work up.

 

P.S.

Arcanes needed to be balanced and some of them needed to be nerfed. Status effects were long overdue for a rework and even if what we got isn't great yet, it's an excellent starting place to move up from. Many details of execution in both cases I don't agree with, but I see the reasoning for the overarching changes.

Radial damage / self-damage / stagger seems like the only part of the mainline which added an imbalance instead of trying to fix one. That's why it's vital to deal with it immediately, before further updates release and inertia sets in. If you keep the existing system and just redo values to try and match the old system, just to start, this is also one of the easiest parts of the mainline to get working right.

Edited by rstripn
added PS

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Before I get into improvements on the system itself, I want to mention that I have never consciously seen the Tech Effect for the big blowback. Some people are claiming it doesn't really work even when they try to use it, I still haven't seen it. I use some of the brightest greens of the infested palette as my energy colors cause I want my Shadows of the Dead to be obviously friendly, so I'd imagine seeing my frame flash eye-gouge green would be noticeable, but uh, nope.

With that comment out of the way, one thing I would suggest to help tone this down, is remembering that one big thing you just did is added more things in the game that take control from the player, in exchange for not dying. Dying feels bad but it's generally well counterable with the 'get gud.' If I die from self damage, oops my bad. Getting staggered from explosions is 'well I guess I'm sitting here for a second.' and it feels, less punishing but more -frustrating-.

I suggest having the minor stagger only prevent you from firing, but maintain movement options while the frame covers their already armor plated face with no vulnerable bits as a compromise, you still get the 'dangit I messed up' for some weapons, without the defeated sigh of 'and now I could put down my controller'. The major knockback at least feels like a built in dodge roll of sorts for when I'm firing at things that are already too close, so it's less 'bad', but having my frame just standing there like they got flashbanged (Which doesn't happen with the actual flashbangs in the game) just doesn't feel good.

In regards to the enemy based knock down, if having the Tenno lay there when no input is provided was an intentional decision for a sort of 'down tech'/'ground tech' option (cause enemies are abysmal at hitting you while prone, or to lay there and contemplate existance. Whichever) I do love it, and wish Valkyr and quick stand modded frames kept the option, but feel more things need to initiate the 'neutral' stand besides jumping, such as aiming, shooting, or pressing melee. I'm very used to getting hit by the Ancient Ripline that has 4 frames of tell, getting dragged to it, and just staring it down holding M1 and frying it once my frame stood up. Only, now my frame continues to lie there as I'm waiting for him to stand

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14 minutes ago, rstripn said:

I'm pretty sure this boat has sailed already. It is extremely unlikely that self-damage will be returning, and we're almost certainly stuck with universal coding for radial damage and stagger. Discussion about whether it should have changed is helpful only for how player opinion affects future dramatic gameplay changes.

We need to deal with the system that now exists and find ways to make it better. And since it seems like it started out just about as badly balanced as possible, that should mean we can only go up from here.

That isn't an insult by the way, it seems clear from the patch notes that the plan was to do exactly that; start out with worst case and then work up.

Reversion is always possible. Trying to tweak the abomination we're dealing with now is just more tape over the hole. No matter how many layers, there's still a bloody great hole there. It's not being fixed, just patched over. The structural integrity is still left weakened - namely, we're left with some mixture of bad feels and worse performance unless circumventing the issue all over again.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Reversion is always possible.

I am afraid that is highly unlikely given how the majority voted for Self Damage to be purged from the game than the minority who voted to make it stay but get a huge tweak. DE follows the majority now (the rude saying is the “filthy” casuals), you can see it from how they address the Rising Tide quest cost, nerfing Fortuna Enemies, potentially made Arcane Farming from Eidolons irrelevant once scarlet spear drops because some people refuses to grind Eidolons or spend plat to get those exotic arcanes. From what I learn from the changes Warframe falls into the category of “Casual Grinding Fashion Ninja Game”. If you want challenge might as well pick up Destiny or other games. Begging challenge from DE while the majority says no is already a lost cause.
 

What we can do now is to give feedback on the live changes to make it better. 
 

Alright onto my feedback.

1. I don’t know if this is a bug or intentional. But why does Self Damage amps still stagger even in Void Mode? Isn’t Void Mode supposed to be a dodge maneuver?

2. Low range AOE weapons should just have no Fall-off. I understand for the big range ones to make it not one shot crowds, but the fall-off for the small radius ones like Cyanex is a big nerf to the weapon because hoping for them to kill a group of 1-3 enemies closely together is now non existent.

3. QTE on stagger recovery should be a tiny bit longer. Seems very hard to do a dodge from the stagger on the current live version (is the stagger recovery is 1/3rd of a second?). Maybe increase it to 1/2 seconds or even a full 1 second?

 

Edited by DrivaMain

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The more I play with it the more I hate the new system. Weapons with self damage were all set up so your could easily avoid that damage but you just threw staggering on everything without any thought about how it would work. You would occasionally kill yourself because someone ran in front of you but now every single aoe weapon has that problem and staggering is way more annoying.

The amount you get staggered is way too large compared to how big/strong the AoEs are especially for weapons that previously lacked self damage. You shouldn't get sent flying when being at the center of the same AoE only causes enemies to gently ragdoll to the floor when they die. Most staggers should be the lightest level where you just shield your face. Getting the full on flinch shouldn't be possible for small AoE weapons and should only happen if they land next you for most others. Only explosions with large AoEs landing close to you should cause the knockdown.

Falloff needs to go or be compensated by large damage boosts for a lot of weapons with small AoEs.

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While getting staggered in Operator mode, you can use void dash to still move around (though the falling animation continues). While probably a bug, I think this should be brought up as a feature (but altered to make the animation to cancel). Operators are already severely limited in their movement and stats so burning a void dash to mitigate the risk of being in the open feels like a cool tradeoff.

Maybe even go a bit further and let us interrupt the stagger to transfer back in?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Reversion is always possible. Trying to tweak the abomination we're dealing with now is just more tape over the hole. No matter how many layers, there's still a bloody great hole there. It's not being fixed, just patched over. The structural integrity is still left weakened - namely, we're left with some mixture of bad feels and worse performance unless circumventing the issue all over again.

It's okay, we should just ask DE to temporarily hire Phil Swift to balance the game. Since they did a lot of damage it's only natural to contact professionals.

 

giphy.gif

Edited by Voghelm
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Personally, I feel the AOE changes are well-designed and plenty powerful, and have done lots of testing. IMO the balance between bullet hoses and AOE is about right... given the removal of self damage.

People who want to autodelete huge gouts of high mobs outright with no aim or tradeoff are smoking something. The AOE weapons are plenty powerful in the no self damage regime, and there are some strong synergies to try.

Players complained for no self damage for a long time, now nerfed, such is balance. Careful for what you wish for in games.

Most of the hyperbolic stuff in the thread is mostly hot air.

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2 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

AOE weapons

please, do say "which" AoE weapons. cause there's only two who are TRULY good. Kuva Ogris, and Kuva bramma.

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5 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Personally, I feel the AOE changes are well-designed and plenty powerful, and have done lots of testing. IMO the balance between bullet hoses and AOE is about right... given the removal of self damage.

People who want to autodelete huge gouts of high mobs outright with no aim or tradeoff are smoking something. The AOE weapons are plenty powerful in the no self damage regime, and there are some strong synergies to try.

Players complained for no self damage for a long time, now nerfed, such is balance. Careful for what you wish for in games.

Most of the hyperbolic stuff in the thread is mostly hot air.

No the AoE changes are not well-designed. Since every goddamn weapon and their mom with an AoE got hit with these stagger changes, ones that did not even have self damage in the first place. This was literally a blanket change that DE put no thought into considering they rolled out 90% damage falloff on all weapons with a semblance of AoE which momentarily turned weapons into complete S#&$ for a while cough acceltra cough.
Now tell me what sense does it make for a stagger to exist on Astilla? or Spearguns, Zakti, Glaives, Staticor(For the love of god remove self-stagger from this weapon). Why tf do Operator amps have self-stagger? Was this really a necessary change? 

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3 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

I am afraid that is highly unlikely given how the majority voted for Self Damage to be purged from the game than the minority who voted to make it stay but get a huge tweak

People who were asking for self damage to be purged were looking at the weapons and stats (and the fact that abilities and melee have no such penalties) and saying "there's no reason they should also be killing the user for that sort of performance". If anyone DID argue for it to be replaced globally by something like stagger, they probably used melee exclusively while laughing at the thought of their suggestion happening to everybody else.

And many of us who DID argue against its removal weren't even doing so because we thought the weapons were worth the self damage, but because we were deathly worried about exactly this sort of thing happening "to pay for it" !

But never did I imagine this worst case scenario, where we *pay* for the self-lenz protection shield gating was now going to provide with "everything staggers now even the non-self-damage weapons" AND a brutal damage-falloff mechanic added on to *pay* for stagger, with "learn to aim Rubico Prime, Tenno!" tossed in like a big middle finger of an explanation as to why.

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Both self-instagank and shooting yourself in the feet with the Staticor to deal radial damage to nearby enemies were very silly things, and I'm glad they're gone. Outside of the Bramma and Staticor, the falloff percentages aren't that severe, and they're hand set per weapon for a reason. I don't know why the Staticor kept the 90%, but. = .

 

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26 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

No the AoE changes are not well-designed. Since every goddamn weapon and their mom with an AoE got hit with these stagger changes, ones that did not even have self damage in the first place. This was literally a blanket change that DE put no thought into considering they rolled out 90% damage falloff on all weapons with a semblance of AoE which momentarily turned weapons into complete S#&$ for a while cough acceltra cough.
Now tell me what sense does it make for a stagger to exist on Astilla? or Spearguns, Zakti, Glaives, Staticor(For the love of god remove self-stagger from this weapon). Why tf do Operator amps have self-stagger? Was this really a necessary change? 

After four years of playing this game, this is what they always do, time and time again. Use a request from the playerbase to insert nerfs into the game, and completely over-tune those nerfs. Then DE rolls the nerfs back slightly to what they were going to be anyway, but because they were over-tuned to begin with, people think its an "improvement" and that DE listened to their feedback. There's a term for this, I just can't remember what it is atm.

Like with univac, where instead of an option in the menu, we got a mod, but that mod had reduced range. That range was only changed to what it should've been due to justifiable push-back, but I'm not about to keep whipping what few fragments of dead horse are left of that whole situation.

With this self stagger nonsense, there was only one thing DE needed to do; replace the self damage on self damaging weapons ONLY with self stagger. That's it. Instead, they added self stagger to every AoE weapon, nerfed the radial damage by 90%, and increased the radius' area to make it easier to stagger yourself. Then they tune down the damage fall off by seemingly random increments on a few weapons, expecting people to go "Oh they listened." Yeah, they listened. For an opportunity to nerf AoE weapons. And in the process, they killed almost every unique gun in the game, regardless of whether or not that gun was meta or even good to begin with.

Stagger should be removed from every gun that didn't deal self damage in the first place. It should be removed from operator amps in general. Weapons that dealt self damage should just get a flat 50% fall off rate. The radius increase should be removed and set back to what it was. They went far and out of their way to add a bunch of blatant and unnecessary nerfs, and only succeeded in invalidating years of grinding, tweaking builds, forma'ing, and plat spent on rivens/ slots/ potatoes.

However, they'll probably keep trying to tweak a bunch of systems that should never have been added to the game in the first place, instead of just admitting that they messed up. In the meantime, I'll just keep playing other games.

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26 minutes ago, Aryustailm said:

People who were asking for self damage to be purged were looking at the weapons and stats (and the fact that abilities and melee have no such penalties) and saying "there's no reason they should also be killing the user for that sort of performance". If anyone DID argue for it to be replaced globally by something like stagger, they probably used melee exclusively while laughing at the thought of their suggestion happening to everybody else.

And many of us who DID argue against its removal weren't even doing so because we thought the weapons were worth the self damage, but because we were deathly worried about exactly this sort of thing happening "to pay for it" !

But never did I imagine this worst case scenario, where we *pay* for the self-lenz protection shield gating was now going to provide with "everything staggers now even the non-self-damage weapons" AND a brutal damage-falloff mechanic added on to *pay* for stagger, with "learn to aim Rubico Prime, Tenno!" tossed in like a big middle finger of an explanation as to why.

I was fine with the self damage mechanic could be annoying at times but largely was workable, but as soon as they announced the stagger thing..... I like to think everyone with more then 2 cells to rub could see the problem hidden. 

Then DE added insult by lying to everyone "We'll buff direct damage and nerf AOE damage by 50%" 
"Oh wait..... that's not a big enough middle digit to everyone who enjoy AOE play styles"

"Hang on everyone, where dropping the update with a suprize no change to direct damage and a bigger AOE fall off. Enjoy :D"

"No worries guys we hear your thoughts, here let us 'buff' some."

"Good now that should put out the flames a bit. They can't say were ignoring them now"


 

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Posted (edited)

If aoe weapons in general were far more effective than single target weapons even against high level enemies, then nerfing aoe overall would make a lot of sense, and this would be an interesting way to do it.

The more I think about it the more likely it seems that this is what has happened.

If this is the case, it shouldn't be hidden inside a seemingly unrelated change.

Edited by rstripn

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1 hour ago, Hyohakusha said:

Weapons that dealt self damage should just get a flat 50% fall off rate.

No, that's what I suspect has been the trap all along. Most AoE weapons CANNOT handle a 50% falloff rate without some serious compensatory buffs.

"Let's pull back to this slightly less ridiculously brutal nerfing" is like saying "okay I'll just arbitrarily amputate one of your arms instead of both, shouldn't you be thanking me?": It's no solution at all to anything.

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Gas and Electricity status procs may be the most effective close-range AoE now.

Hah. Weirdly hilarious.

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So I guess these changes are here to stay.

That is, it was completely intended that every single popular amp staggers your operator with each fire.

It is intended that previously mediocre AoE weapons are now completely underpowered and the entire category has been nerfed to the ground, with almost no warning.

The fact that my favourite activities (solo tridos, solo arbis) are now super frustrating due to this ridiculous self stagger, and that weapons I spent so much time getting powerful are completely useless now, has really killed this game for me. Since the update I've been only logging in for sorties and trading cores for Quill standing but I think that will stop soon.

 

I wish these changes would get reverted or adjusted. 😞

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18 minutes ago, zarvox said:

So I guess these changes are here to stay.

That is, it was completely intended that every single popular amp staggers your operator with each fire.

It is intended that previously mediocre AoE weapons are now completely underpowered and the entire category has been nerfed to the ground, with almost no warning.

The fact that my favourite activities (solo tridos, solo arbis) are now super frustrating due to this ridiculous self stagger, and that weapons I spent so much time getting powerful are completely useless now, has really killed this game for me. Since the update I've been only logging in for sorties and trading cores for Quill standing but I think that will stop soon.

 

I wish these changes would get reverted or adjusted. 😞

I'm going to back and play some single player games. God of War is a great game. Doom Eternal is coming out soon, and FF7R comes out in a month. Dreams also is a fun game. 

Given the bugs, glitches and other crap associated with Railjack I don't think Scarlet Spear will do so well on consoles. 

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Howdy from Texas!

Before I offer my opinion, I want to express my gratitude to everyone at DE. I love and respect y'all for everything you do for this game and it's community.

I consider myself a veteran of this game and though I've felt strongly about some of the (many) revisions over the years, I've never felt more inclined to step up and give my opinion about them than I do now, with this update. 

Firstly, I disagree with with the removal of self damage at all. The removal of it will completely change the gameplay of many Tenno in a drastic way. Only a small portion of the vast amount of weapons we choose from have self damage. (as I'm sure you know!) The players that choose those weapons as part of their everexpanding arsenal choose to adapt their parkour and shooting style based on a customization of that specific loadout.  The removal of self damage takes away the level of loadout customization that we know and love. The balance of risk/reward those self damaging weapons provide is part of what gives this game it's uniqueness. Having self damage in gameplay introduces an aspect of skill and parkour that new and veterans of Warframe can appreciate. 

As far as the falloff damage being reduced, in my opinion 90 percent is a lot, but I know like all other changes, this number will most likely change with time. 

Thank you!

🤠

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4 hours ago, Hyohakusha said:

With this self stagger nonsense, there was only one thing DE needed to do; replace the self damage on self damaging weapons ONLY with self stagger. That's it. Instead, they added self stagger to every AoE weapon, nerfed the radial damage by 90%, and increased the radius' area to make it easier to stagger yourself.

This is hilarious. And true.

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Il y a 5 heures, Hyohakusha a dit :

With this self stagger nonsense, there was only one thing DE needed to do; replace the self damage on self damaging weapons ONLY with self stagger. That's it.

Complete agreement with you. Why the hell did they put self stagger on weapons that do not had self damage? Make no sense at all.

And after testing a little more the weapons, I am still very disappointed by the new "feeling" of them. It does not fell like explosives weapons anymore. I mean : grineer walking off an explosion doing 20 K damage, without being put on the ground? That is not an explosion, that is an mildly aggressive cloud...  

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I'm totally fine with the vast majority of the WF Revised update, but I am definitely not a fan of the self-damage changes.  I know I will probably be in the minority here, as I usually am with most WF changes.  So be it.

Honestly, I preferred everything the way it was before regarding self-damage weapons.  The Ogris is by far my favorite weapon.  I've been using it since it first appeared, and it is my most used weapon by a wide margin.  (Back in my day, it was a shoe box!  :/)  I actually liked the danger factor.  It created a risk vs. reward feature that I enjoyed.  I have mastered the fine art of the Ogris over many years.  I am extremely good with it.  My self-kill rate with it is unbelievably low.  And I don't just use it from the safety of a high platform in defense, either.  I often use it for survival, excavation, etc.  I run around firing it like a madman and almost never hit myself.  I'm not trying to brag, but I rather liked the fact that I had honed a skill that made the weapon so useful.  It was more effective in my hands than someone who wasn't practiced with it.  Now, it seems like it was all for naught, and that kinda grinds my gears.

I know, I know.  I really have nothing to complain about, because I haven't lost anything.  I can use it the same way I always have, but now I won't die on those rare occasions that I shoot too close.  Yeah, okay.  That's fine.  That's why I'm not going to plead or demand that the change be reverted.  But what I'm much more upset about is the aoe falloff.  While being more realistic, I find it a real bummer.  My Ogris is definitely not as effective as it used to be.  Having the enemies towards the edge of the aoe barely take any damage sucks.  It's really a drag having my favorite weapon feel so much less effective.

*Sigh*  But alas, I can probably live with it.  It's still a good weapon.  But the thing I'm most upset about is how this change destroyed the Dissic scaffold.  I chose that scaffold specifically for its brilliant ability to clear out the vommies during tridolons fights.  My role in my friend group has always been to keep and protect the lures and be on vommy duty.  The Dissic was great for that, but it really struggles to kill anything.  The Ogris still works, but the Dissic is a smaller aoe and much lower damage (obviously), so the falloff really hurts.  You feel this change with the Dissic much more than primary weapons.  I mean, you basically have to hit the vommies squarely with the projectile or it doesn't do much.

But y'know what the absolute worst part is?  The stagger with the Dissic.  You don't have the ninja mobility with the operator, which makes it really hard to make sure the shot is always far enough away.  I never realized how close I was often shooting it to myself until now.  And to make matters even worse, the secondary explode-y balls that rain out from the Dissic shot stagger you as well.  As those balls kinda spread out in every direction, they constantly stagger you.  Lemmie tell you, it's almost impossible to use this thing without constantly being staggered.  It totally sucks, man.  I loved this scaffold so much, and this change wrecked it.

Alright, look--thing is, if this is how the game always was, I'm sure I'd be fine with it, and I wouldn't have said a word.  It's just rough to have your builds f***ed up by changes, y'know?  We've all experienced it.  And I realize that DE does their best to please everyone, but it's an impossible task.  They make changes that some people love, and it wrecks somebody else's favorite thing.  I know that's just the way it goes.  I've never been shy about admitting that I hate change (in every aspect of life).  I know I just have to live with it.  I completely understand the constantly evolving nature of this game, but... well... DE, I have a serious question for you.  And please don't misunderstand me--this isn't meant to be a screeching, whiny rant, but a legitimate question.  My fellow Tenno will probably chase me off of the forums with torches and pitchforks, but oh well, I'm asking anyway.  DE, do you think that you will ever reach a day when you are more or less satisfied with the gameplay of WF, and stop implementing massive changes to existing things, and instead just add new content?  It would just be really nice if we could reach a day when we could log in without the constant fear of having our builds wrecked and having to repolarize, remod, change frames, change equipment, etc, to try to get the functionality we previously enjoyed.

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8 hours ago, Hyohakusha said:

With this self stagger nonsense, there was only one thing DE needed to do; replace the self damage on self damaging weapons ONLY with self stagger. That's it. Instead, they added self stagger to every AoE weapon, nerfed the radial damage by 90%, and increased the radius' area to make it easier to stagger yourself. Then they tune down the damage fall off by seemingly random increments on a few weapons, expecting people to go "Oh they listened." Yeah, they listened. For an opportunity to nerf AoE weapons. And in the process, they killed almost every unique gun in the game, regardless of whether or not that gun was meta or even good to begin with.

This hits the nail right on the head.

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