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[DE]Bear

Warframe Revised: Removing Self-Damage / Stagger Megathread

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With this change, came a strange anomaly, coming from enemy knockdowns.

Before, the player had a fixed duration, then stood up automatically.
Over the years, we have gotten used to it.
It's like... ingrained in our minds.

So now, I often find myself being ragdolled around.
A lot more by the grineer, than they used to.
Up to such magnitudes, you enter a state of: *sigh* 'I'll wait untill you boys are done'.

When the ragdolling ends, there is that long moment.
Lying flat on the ground and being shot at.
Untill you're asking, 'why it is taking so long?'

Eventually, just moving forward, now ends that knockdown.

It kind of messes with the mind, at the moment.
Maybe we'll get used to it, I don't know.
Now I can only say, it's sort of... 'discomforting'.

I mean.
What Tenno, would not auto-raise to their feet, after said duration ends?
I'll have to glue my finger to the forward button for now, to get used to this, I guess.

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On 2020-03-02 at 8:42 PM, [DE]Bear said:

We are getting rid of Self Damage and replacing it with something else

I don't mind removing self-damage BUT there is way huger problem - with those changes it's true that i cannot kill myself BUT i cannot reliably kill lv20 unarmored enemies with AoE damage from those guns anymore.  Why? Because from 3k-10k damage reduced to around 100-300.

Please revert falloff damage and make damage to enemies the same as before, also remove stagger from weapons that had AoE without self damage.

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Please fix the stagger radius on Staticor. It's way too big compared to the actual explosion radius.

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I have to politely state my displeasure of having the stagger on amps.  Before, the damage wasn't too bad even when I fired it at my feet.  If I had low enough health, whoops, I'll teleport back to my frame, no big deal.  Now the stagger just feels... so much worse.  It feels like it takes longer than the rare returning to the frame animation as I flail about for a few seconds.

And some weapons have mods that can reduce the stagger? Are amps included? No? What a shame.

How long until amps have their own loadout with mods and such? And until you do that, can you remove the stagger from AMPs please?

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6 hours ago, Zilotz said:

I don't mind removing self-damage BUT there is way huger problem - with those changes it's true that i cannot kill myself BUT i cannot reliably kill lv20 unarmored enemies with AoE damage from those guns anymore.  Why? Because from 3k-10k damage reduced to around 100-300.

Please revert falloff damage and make damage to enemies the same as before, also remove stagger from weapons that had AoE without self damage.

 

3 hours ago, HyokaChan said:

Please fix the stagger radius on Staticor. It's way too big compared to the actual explosion radius.

These are still my same two problems with the update, the falloff on weapons is way too huge, and makes them feel terrible when compared to assault rifles, beam weapons, or melee.

And weapons that didn't have self damage or falloff like the staticor receiving both giant falloff and stagger, is just so, so bad.

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Posted (edited)

why did you add stagger effect to weapons that didn't inflict self damages?
it's totally unfair and stupid... after massacring the catchmoon,
it's now the turn of the tombfinger.... if it was for this result, I believe that
I still preferred the self damages ^^.

Edited by eldruidos
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Granmu Prism changes are extreme. Before I'd tank the hits to near null effect, now I'm forced to back flip for what used to be less than 20 self damage? What gives? Sure if I changed the damage type to puncture or viral I'd see drastic self imploding damage but with operator void resistance it was never the issue this patch set out to fix.

Also Cyanex is causing strange stagger interactions, a weapon that never had self damage to begin with.

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36 minutes ago, DukeDublin said:

Also Cyanex is causing strange stagger interactions, a weapon that never had self damage to begin with.

It did have self-damage to begin with. Self-damage was removed from it after it was realised that having arbitrarily homing projectiles is not a predictable experience, so the player wasn't at fault for getting hurt.

This is a lesson they seem to have forgotten with the stupid, boring homogenisation of AOE radials.

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10 hours ago, AegisAmaranth said:

It kind of messes with the mind, at the moment.
Maybe we'll get used to it, I don't know.
Now I can only say, it's sort of... 'discomforting'.

I mean.
What Tenno, would not auto-raise to their feet, after said duration ends?
I'll have to glue my finger to the forward button for now, to get used to this, I guess.

It's weird but I like it, since forward will stand up directly, but left or right will roll out of the sprawl instead.

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I hope DE are watching this thread closely, and that some points get brought up during tomorrow's devstream, namely:

We are strongly against stagger on amps
We are strongly against weapons with no previous self damage having gotten stagger

I'm hopeful for what they have to say.

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After having played with the changes for a bit, while I was initially opposed, I realize I can understand and grow accustomed to these changes. Explosive and AoE weapons are simply more fun to use. I think self-stagger in place of damage should stay, with some ironing out.

The things that need to be modified, in my opinion, are the damage falloffs. 90% might be needed to some weapons with high power and range, that are meant to demolish single targets. But most weapons I think need much less than that to keep them feeling effective. IMO, stagger is fine on weapons that formerly had no stagger, so long as it's not out of control. The biggest complaints are obviously staticor and the operator amp, which have far too much stagger even at long range; it's not balance, it's just disorienting. Stagger and falloff must be fine-tuned per weapon, but I'd overall give the system a thumbs up.

Overall I understand that the system represents a tradeoff: aoe weapons have the advantage of damaging multiple enemies compared to a single bullet weapon, and need some balancing factor (yes, even beyond low fire rates and gun stats). Weapons with no self-damage and AoE had the best of both worlds, so stagger in my opinion is a reasonable compromise that I can get used to (if balanced properly). So that's probably my final verdict so far.

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PLEASE revert the changes made to weapons that were not self damage before the change, but were given stagger anyways. It's completely ruined some of my favorite weapons, and by extension my enjoyment of the entire game.

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I don't get it. The response to these changes seems about 90%+ negative, but no response from DE.

Could DE perhaps comment on whether these changes (specifically, being staggered every time my amp fires, previously mediocre AoE weapons being nerfed into oblivion, being staggered from 20m away by a charged staticor shot, etc) are permanent or not? I think many people would like to know DE's stance.

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20 minutes ago, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 said:

Nothing. Nothing discussed on the devstream. Just sweeping it under the rug.

Yup. 23 pages in this thread, dozens of threads addressing individual weapons and yet I'm not surprised. Gas will be slightly less crap, impact will go back to being as annoying as it was instead of ridiculously annoying as is. But this was a classic DE nerf. Like I said earlier in the thread, take something the players ask for, use it as an excuse to gut something they don't like. All the unique non-hitscan weapons either do less damage, are annoying to use or are flat out terrible now. They even managed to make the stug worse. Now they're gonna gloss over it, throw us a couple scraps with the gas/ impact changes, and push out the next update. Looks like my long break from this game is going to go even longer.

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11 hours ago, Endorphinz said:

Overall I understand that the system represents a tradeoff: aoe weapons have the advantage of damaging multiple enemies compared to a single bullet weapon, and need some balancing factor (yes, even beyond low fire rates and gun stats). Weapons with no self-damage and AoE had the best of both worlds, so stagger in my opinion is a reasonable compromise that I can get used to (if balanced properly). So that's probably my final verdict so far.

You say that like some of those weapons were the outperforming other weapons or heavily op. Some weapons with minuscule AoE like Astilla, scourge/speargun class doesn't need the self stagger. This is literally a nerf to average AoE weapons that didn't deal self damage and killing the fun for people who use them i.e Staticor. Like legit if this was a way for people to make a sure fire path to make primed sure footed a mandatory mod on frames that do not have abilities that ignore stagger then DE was successful. Even then knowing DE I'm sure they have a nerf coming for that mod too. 

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

You say that like some of those weapons were the outperforming other weapons or heavily op. Some weapons with minuscule AoE like Astilla, scourge/speargun class doesn't need the self stagger. This is literally a nerf to average AoE weapons that didn't deal self damage and killing the fun for people who use them i.e Staticor. Like legit if this was a way for people to make a sure fire path to make primed sure footed a mandatory mod on frames that do not have abilities that ignore stagger then DE was successful. Even then knowing DE I'm sure they have a nerf coming for that mod too. 

Well I will say that weapons like the Astilla barely had any noticeable effects in gameplay for me. The stagger barely makes you flinch. A weapon like the simulor, despite being given self-stagger in the patch notes, had basically no noticeable reaction with point blank range explosions!

What I'm saying is the stagger can be worked out per weapon, depending on the strength, to create a balance, right? Not all weapon staggers should be created equal. Some staggers I think should be toned down still, but others like the tombfinger might belong where they are, seeing how much damage potential that weapon has.

This of course comes from my own playing experience, I can't say I play the exact same way everyone else does.

Edit: and you know what? You also have a point I forgot to mention. Maybe some of these AOE weapons need to be buffed in order to fit into their new roles as explosion machines. They originally tried a flat 20% damage boost for all AOEs in initially testing, but decided to drop that. Universal buffs and tweaks are the easiest route, but will never truly bring balance as much as testing and tweaking each weapon individually.

Edited by Endorphinz

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DE only cares about the new player experience which is a culprit why self damage is gone they ignore veterans just because the damn new players complaining about self damage. armor scalings nerfed because new players! git gud is a better option because noobs won't be fighting level 100's anytime soon at that point, please stop ignoring veteran players! & de needs to start ignoring newer players or else were screwed so bring back self damage & old armor scaling or veterans may quit self damage helped some like me learn the risk & reward thing

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Please add a way to handle the stagger effect from operator weapons, or remove it completely until there is a way to handle it. At present we have no way to handle the stagger effect from operator amps. I want to use Primed Sure Footed on my operator, but sadly it's impossible. The terrible eidolon hunt experience is unbearable.

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Please use a time capsule, go back before the update and just delete the idea of stagger instead of selfdamage.

Its just ridiculous how you nerf a lot of weapons that dont needed to be nerfed i.e. ayanga didnt do too high dmg numbers, tonkor has high reload time and arcing, staticor rarely seen in pubic missions, tombfinger too. i still remember the outcry you caused when you added selfdamage to the Staticor. Noone used it after this change, until you went back. There are a lot more examples, but i'll keep it short.

Now you either have to use an expensive Login-rewarded mod to mitigate these frustrating changes or be a Nezha/Nidus to ingore stagger as a status proc. Cautious Shot is a Meme. Roll back the changes and make this mod 100% (And i still havent taken Amps into cosideration). Or make Primed Sure Footed to apply to ALL aspects of the player, give it an own slot where just this mod can be applied to and make it cost 0 points. And give it as a Login reward on day 1. So everyone can just completely ignore this horrible change you made.

Honestly this is all in all a very baaad change you made here. Seems like you were too ambitious. 

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I honestly preferred the game with self damage. Getting stuns with weapons that did not have self damage is meh, playing public matchmaker with at least one Kuva Bramma (as it is a balanced weapon) is a no fun, one player using it is enough to deprive others from any engagement.

Explosive weapons are not balanced for this, dealing all the damage to everyone even with fallof is silly, no brain, no aim, just spam and you will complete the mission.

I do not find that kind of gameplay to be productive, looks more like Cheat Engine based gameplay for bots. And if game does not make you progress then Devs do not get to progress too. So poor balancing around it, making 300 weapons into mastery fodder and making you so you have to disable CO-OP if you wanna play anything that requires aiming is a bad design choice imho.

Not just for explosive weapons, but in broad spectrum, making one thing do it all without a brain cell being active hurts the game more than it helps it. Sure, bots will be thankful for this, they can finally do top damage with something else that is not Saryn, but if you look at which games are ones we consider classics - it's games that made us grow.

And if Steve wants Warframe to be a wife and not a mistress maybe he should refrain from implementing blatant cheats in the game.

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i call this a cheap cop out to those whiney little losers who keep killing themselves with Kuva bramma u taking away self dmg , so u takin away ability to teabag morons who want to spam carpet bomb and blow off entire teams ears from the sound effects. self dmg needs to stay that way when us who actually know how to fire a real weapon refuse to pick them up after they kill themselves repeatedly then they will finally learn. exacly what ruined fun factor in DEFIANCE on PS3 was when they changed the mass cannons then everyone and their grandmother HAD to have one because of the "purdy lights" they make and lag people out of the game . 

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I can confirm at this point that my Kulstar definitely feels sad and joyless now that I have no way to injure myself with it. It's just there, and yet worse even when I use it properly, thanks to falloff.

I can confirm that the stagger hasn't made me care one iota about 'carefully' using my Shedu where it won't make me stumble and I'm not even using the mechanic-ignore methods.

So if you wanted to make explosives more attractive: You've failed, they don't feel like explosives.
If you wanted to limit other AOEs' usage: You've failed, the stagger is just incidentally annoying at most, we're still shooting it point-blank.

 

Warframe is supposedly all about the power fantasy, but what if for some people, the pinnacle of power fantasy is not just being unstoppable godlike beings, but knowing that what you hold in your hands is so dangerous even an overpowered demigod isn't safe from the payload?

Ignoring the actual value output, that's just number tweaking. Thematically and mechanically, that's an experience that we simply can't replicate in the new, bland and annoying system.

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Is there supposed to be a way to mitigate this with Operator? Not seeing any noticeable difference in recovery with anything I'm trying... and it's a very long recovery, indeed.

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