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Warframe Revised: Removing Self-Damage / Stagger Megathread

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1小时前 , AegisAmaranth 说:

 

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AegisAmaranth

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Since the self damage has been removed, is there any way to remove Shedu's self-stagger? The weapon didn't have self damage before but now there's the self stagger thing making it really frustrating to use. Can you guys please reconsider it and perhaps remove Shedu's stagger? Thanks

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I scrolled through the thread and didn’t see this one mentioned. Khora’s first ability, whipclaw, seems to produce a self-stagger when it hits environment that it’s innate punch through can’t penetrate. 

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Remember when you spat on Primed Sure Footed? I did do, and DE's policy does not allow exchanges, now I gotta wait 300 days until I get that mod from Daily Tribute...
So after this update, I went to SO with my dear Staticor... without knock-down preventing mods I spent more time laying on the ground than killing enemies. Staticor never dealt self damage, why the hell does it make you lay on the ground now? Operator's Amps which barely dealt any self damage, now piss you off with self kd too. KD, excessively, everywhere!
I was doing Disruption Sortie with Mirage + Bramma one day, was doing fine until something disabled all of my abilities and I got the generic "ability in use" notice. Had to abort. In next try a another player hinted that it's the Bramma that does that. I presume the new and improved KD script does not fully consider ability script?
Ofc the new and imroved KD script extends to enemies too: they can make you lay on ground now too. And it's super annoying that I have to mash buttons to make my frame stand up, and frame likes to do it very slowly.
There's currently more self KD than there was self damage. Perhaps we could use a new mini-school that would focus on mastering of standing on legs?

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One point that I'd like changed is for the stagger to be removed or at least mitigated by damage reduction abilities. It seems right now that the stagger effects interact like a Status Effect, so things like Warding Halo, Iron Skin, Kinetic Plating, Hallowed Ground, Wyrm's Negate precept will prevent the staggers while they're active. Which is a great functionality and makes "self damage" weapons feel great when youre playing those frames! But what I'd like to see is for all damage reduction effects (think, Gara's Splinter Storm, Ember's Immolation) at least have a down-grading function like Cautious Shot. Or ideally Damage Reduction would completely negate self staggers.

In support of this idea: before these changes I used to play a Gauss build with an Ogris carefully built to only deal Heat and Blast, which Kinetic Plating would prevent when I was on high enough battery, so in an emergent way my DR prevented the self damage and I could shoot my Ogris with impunity.

Apparently Kinetic Plating has the stagger prevention innately now, so I dont need to be as careful on Gauss, but I think other frames with DR-focused abilities should have a similar opportunity to take advantage of explosive weapons in this way.

At the very very least I feel like the stagger should only occur if the blast would deal enough damage to actually kill your warframe rather than simply being an area check. So if youre using a low damage aoe weapon you'll only feel the staggers if youre also on a squishy frame. Not a perfect fix, but I feel its thematically sensible if its possible.Seems silly that we have so much falloff and it still knocks us down at the edges of it sometimes?

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After thoroughly testing these changes... Please give stagger 90% falloff. it is currently totally ridiculous the dmg it can do right now. 

yes that is mocking whoever thought up this nonsense. 

 

But on a more sincere and serious note. Please I am begging you on my knees, make cautious shot a blast shield. It is a 10 pip mod. it costs hours of time to get and has extremely limited uses. It is a arbitration only mod. It is very exclusive. It should straight up negate blast knockdown (only shots that would have KILLED you should be knockdown everything else should just get a skip). If you want to make an amalgam cautious shot that is full knockdown resistance I would absolutely love it. 

I want to restate something as well. Everyone was upset they were dying. except now every little tap or touch is full i just got kicked in my D knocked down. Please reduce stagger to a reasonable point. A point where you really only suffer and get staggered and bored if you would have taken substantial dmg. 

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On 2020-03-19 at 6:22 PM, Slayer_of_PCs said:

I scrolled through the thread and didn’t see this one mentioned. Khora’s first ability, whipclaw, seems to produce a self-stagger when it hits environment that it’s innate punch through can’t penetrate. 

What kind of surface would that be? I know you can't be staggered by just Whipclawing the ground and being inside the blast radius, but are you saying there are special surfaces that will create an explosion that can stagger you? Nothing I've tried with it has produced a stagger, so I want to know the trick. 

18 hours ago, tape_drive_TS1140 said:

I was doing Disruption Sortie with Mirage + Bramma one day, was doing fine until something disabled all of my abilities and I got the generic "ability in use" notice. Had to abort. In next try a another player hinted that it's the Bramma that does that. I presume the new and improved KD script does not fully consider ability script?

No, the bug with self-stagger is being unable to jump. The thing where your abilities stop working has been there. It just happens sometimes, because of Warframe's good and functional game engine.

On 2020-03-18 at 5:32 AM, Voghelm said:

Well, here we are complaining for 20 forum pages. Are we being heard yet?

Ehhh, I'm pretty sure DE's well aware that the way to motivate people to respond is to do what they don't want you to do. If they changed stagger and self-instagank back today, you'd end up with a lot more pages.

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Posted (edited)

I WANT MY OLD SONICOR BACK!

It barely did any damage, was more of a Tool than a Weapon, with bad range, it's now totally worthless, only self stagger. Why did you have to DESTROY a niche weapon, wich almost nobody played with? A Weapon wich shoots bouncing orbs with an inpredictable trajectory. You know what? THEY OFTEN BOUNCE BACK AT YOU. Absolute trash now, Thank you, DE. It didn't even have self damage before so what's the point in adding it?

I sincerely hate you for this, DE.

Edited by JKMplayer
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Please bring back self damage, I use concealed explosives on the hikou. Previously you could see the self damage and stop shooting to get your shield back, now all it does is staggers you every half a second or so. Completely knocks you flat down and then you die because the enemies kill you. It's like playing with a slow frame rate or bad lag, it is very annoying!! I rarely killed myself using this mod. At least you could see what was happening and then you could choose to stop shooting if you didn't want to die. Please bring back self damage the way it is right now is awful to play, very frustrating.

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I would like the old self-damage if ... it be come like this .. weapon previously that didn't even have self-damage become self-stagger because it have AoE ... - -" ...

I felt so sad ... I used to live with Opticor / Staticor because I'm playing this game on Laptop with Touchpad ... so I can still enjoy it ... just Why ?

actually I do like self-damage ... it worth to use weapon that can do a lot damage and also do self-damage ... at least if want to remove self-damage and put self-stagger into it ... 

please don't put self-stagger to weapon that didn't even have self-damage in first place ... it killed that weapon ... 
I gave up on catchmoon to use staticor now .. staticor is gone ... and all AoE got self-stagger .. even it do only poor damage compared to weapon that have self-damage at first place ... 

I don't think raise damage would fix in usability and fun ... because we already have weapon that do higher damage with previously have self-damage ... 
(Actually I prefer self-damage over this self-stagger ... if you ask me... or let me vote )

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I don't think anyone is aware of the early standup mechanic, because it's maybe a frame long, considering all of the different animations and timings, that window needs to be at least 2 to 4 frames longer, even the action RPGs that inspired it have at a warning before the frame window of such mechanics.

And yes, weapons that didn't do self damage before shouldn't suddenly start making people lose total control of their character, that's kind of absurd.

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On 2020-03-22 at 8:28 AM, KainDarkfire said:

IAnd yes, weapons that didn't do self damage before shouldn't suddenly start making people lose total control of their character, that's kind of absurd.

Agreed, the staticor is ridiculous now.

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For newer explosive weapons like Kuva Tonkor, where the grenade doesnt explode if too close, shouldn't we let it explode now? Cause it does poor damage close range.

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Of the whole update, the least thing I like is the "Stagger added" to weapons that were not self damage originally, I found it unnecessary.

with those weapons with self damage at least you had a pre-existing way to play it, which transfers to stagger awareness, understandable. but why to some of these non-self damage AOE weapons? does not make sense, it simply annoys the play-style on those weapons. gotta play like a sniper, that is ridiculous. 

Try playing sonicor, it has "Stagger added", sonicor has a unpredictable trajectory that as much as you try, you cannot fully predict and it  staggers the hell out of you. is impossible to play like this, please consider removing. {sonicor is not even on the list}

To be honest I would like to see it completely reverted from that new list of weapon that were not orinally self damage,  pox? really, and simulor? like if it wasnt nerfed enough, just does not make sense. please hear out and consider these.

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Posted (edited)

So, Stagger on using whip on the cage with Khora (not 100% but enough to be annoying)
Stagger when you shot at the ropalolyst because of the hitbox that dont match the ennemy.

Stagger when you use Cyanex seer kuva zakti and so. (so powerfull gaz cloud that your are destabilized)


 

Edited by AnuKaneDai

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I miss self-damage, it was one of the things that made me feel alive using some weapons, to have these "aha" experiences are what got me care more for my aim in game. With the changes done to how these explosive weapons work they as well are now less potent and just getting staggered and not blown to bits just make me feel like the weapons have the same effect as a water gun from time to time. Investing much time and resources into a Kuva Bramma and learning to master not blowing myself to pieces was fun and challenging, it was one of the more fun weapons to use because of this potency of not only killing your enemy, but if you slip you also go with the explosives.

I only use the Bramma and other previous self-damage weapons occasionally since they have lost that dangerous allure. At this point I see it little useful to bother about aiming from time to time, a bit sad when Warframe is the game that taught me to aim in shooter games. I can always run with my negative accuracy laser weapons and just hope I hit something when I aim in the enemy’s general direction.

To have a wide variety of weapons is great, but even better when I can master an obscure weapon that potentially can kill me if I don’t use it correctly, reflecting the meaning of “Mastering” a weapon.

Self-damage should not vanish completely from the game as I see it very important for getting this feeling of realizing these weapons are dangerous. Staggering is ok to some degrees, but I would rather see us either A, actually take some damage (most of the star chart barely touch you late game) or B, fling my Warframe to the other side of the map when I end up in one of these explosions. Would be interesting to utilize the explosions for movement, like soldier from TF2, take damage, but travel some distance when using the rockets.

My main reason of not liking the current changes must be the explosive power of these weapons, I loved using the Bramma for the challenge it gave to survive, but the feeling of mastery when I could use it and survive was maybe one of the most interesting things. And with the current changes of just getting staggered a small area around the explosions just feel like a joke in comparison to the distance it tossed the enemies bodies across the map.

Give me some danger with my own weapons, I’m bored with successful missions without any challenge, I’m at the point of bugging Hok in Cetus for making me some of the S#&$tiest weapons there is… I even got rivens to slow down weapons to a halt, rivens to go faster and deal basically no damage.

Please reconsider the change of self-damage, it took the life out of some of my favorite weapons!

Weird builds as the old Kamikaze Trinity and more is what kept the game interesting, the odd, the unusual, that’s what kept me interested in the game, you can find a rifle in most fps games, but weapons as the Lenz, Javlok, Battacor, Tatsu and so on, different mechanics is what keeps these weapons on my favorite list, they keep thing interesting. Even the negative accuracy Phantasma functioning as a flamethrower keeps it interesting.

Hope this can contribute to a better play experience, just remember that you need to experience the impact to feel it’s there, brushing it of or not giving a proper representation does it no good.

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I dont care about self damage, but the stagger replacement needs some work. The examples listed in this thread alone should be showing the staff that staggering needs fixing. It got so bad that several friends of mine have actively decided to quit this game until its fixed, so often have they, in high DR/Armor/Shield using frames, get knocked down, stunned, and staggered by mobs that just keep them stunlocked and unable to fight back until they die and fail the mission.
The devs said that frames would be getting their own status effects, right?
Maybe something to think on.

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-03-09 at 5:14 PM, DrivaMain said:

I am afraid that is highly unlikely given how the majority voted for Self Damage to be purged from the game than the minority who voted to make it stay but get a huge tweak.

When was this put to a vote? I didn't get counted in that. This wasn't a democratic process. People complained and DE listened to them over the people saying no, it's actually fine, let us have this niche class of weapons because we know you'll just nerf them into the ground if you touch them, and let the complainers use the hundreds of weapons that don't do self-damage. No one actually knows how many people really wanted this.

Besides, if they really messed up, flawed player opinion shouldn't take priority over the health of the game. No game devs should eliminate the possibility of gong back on a design change just because what's done is done. That's so lazy.

On 2020-03-22 at 7:28 AM, KainDarkfire said:

I don't think anyone is aware of the early standup mechanic, because it's maybe a frame long, considering all of the different animations and timings, that window needs to be at least 2 to 4 frames longer, even the action RPGs that inspired it have at a warning before the frame window of such mechanics.

And it suffers from the same issue a lot of Warframe mechanics do - the game doesn't even tell you it exists. Hell, I READ the patch notes and I don't even know how to trigger it. There's absolutely no way a new player is going to figure out that this is a thing and they will get incredibly frustrated with these weapons that seem to incapacitate you every time you shoot them, throw them away, and never use them again.

Edited by (PS4)Krikenemp
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17 minutes ago, (PS4)Krikenemp said:

Hell, I READ the patch notes and I don't even know how to trigger it.

You can trigger the recovery by tapping your jump button , which is also lazily implemented.

The whole nerfing process was stupid, weapons like Staticor, Sonicor, and Shedu all got self stagger for no reason, they also recieved meaningless nerfs.

I'm happy self damage is gone, because now I can actually use my Ogris in pubs without having to worry about dying to teammates or their dogs. Even using it solo was annoying because butchers and flameblades existed.

But yes, the nerfs were annoying, and still are annoying. I don't think damage falloff was really needed on this already semi mediocre class of weapons.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ZephyrZone said:

You can trigger the recovery by tapping your jump button , which is also lazily implemented.

The whole nerfing process was stupid, weapons like Staticor, Sonicor, and Shedu all got self stagger for no reason, they also recieved meaningless nerfs.

I'm happy self damage is gone, because now I can actually use my Ogris in pubs without having to worry about dying to teammates or their dogs. Even using it solo was annoying because butchers and flameblades existed.

But yes, the nerfs were annoying, and still are annoying. I don't think damage falloff was really needed on this already semi mediocre class of weapons.

If you ask me, all they needed was to make the projectiles not collide with allies but still deal self-damage if you shoot a nearby enemy or terrain. Maybe scale the self-damage since our damage scaling is much stronger than our health scaling. But that's it.

And to make it worse, the buff they tried to compensate this stuff with was making the AoE bigger, which is nothing but another nerf in most cases because damage fall-off means you're not actually killing things in a bigger area than before, but you are staggering yourself in a bigger area than you would have damaged yourself before. So you have less room to wield these weapons than ever, but we're expected to be okay with that because it doesn't take away all the extra lives we don't really need to complete 99% of the game's content and the content that might actually require revives is content that AoE weapons are generally bad at anyway. No, instead we spend more time not playing the game because of incapacitation than we would have spent by instantly reviving after accidental suicide... because that makes the experience better than losing a mostly inconsequential resource.

Edited by (PS4)Krikenemp
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Making a feedback thread to completely ignore all relevant feedback, a true power move.

warframe in a nutshell lmao

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You've ruined my go-to weapon (Sonicor) on all but specific Warframes like Rhino.

Will it (and others people's issues with these changes) be fixed or is this going to be one of those threads that just gets left to get big with no response and is then locked and disregarded? #nekrosprime 😢

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Stagger feels terrible, is terrible, and very counter to what is meant to be a fast game. I'd much prefer being a health hazard to myself, hell it's part of the reason I like Hildryn so much. She encourages giant explosions with her shield gating and recovery systems.

Sonicor really got ruined by this, before you could at least glide into enemies spamming the hell out of it to try and break/shoot past the shield bubbles. Now if you get REMOTELY close to any of the arctic globes or nullifiers it'll just bounce and stagger you in front of a swarm of enemies, and Sonicor needs multiple shots to break bubbles anyway.

Explosions were better when we were killing ourselves with them. Self-inflicted crowd control effects are terrible in a game where there's massive swarms of enemies with insane damage and auto aim.

Also, why don't the enemies stagger themselves from all their explosions?

 

All you had to do was remove self-damage, or even just reduce it. But instead you made a whole class of fun guns terrible and horrendous to use. I guess I am forced to go to Arca Plasmor and swords now if I want to have AoE fun...

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Another big nerf with a new and bad fluidity killing mechanics on top of endless nerfs after nerfs. SMH. 

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22 hours ago, IceFire909 said:

All you had to do was remove self-damage, or even just reduce it. But instead you made a whole class of fun guns terrible and horrendous to use. I guess I am forced to go to Arca Plasmor and swords now if I want to have AoE fun...

This, very much this.

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