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[DE]Bear

Warframe Revised: Removing Self-Damage / Stagger Megathread

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I think Kuva Ogris got hit the hardest by these changes ontop of the status changes. Kuva Ogris was clearly made to be used with gas status, and now it has a whopping 80% damage falloff, while gas got nerfed to the ground to the point it literally can't kill a lvl 30 enemy even if you have a lot of base damage. DE, please stop nerfing gimmicks. There was nothing wrong with explosive weapons like this nor gas. It's clear every AoE weapon got hit so hard just because of Kuva Bramma and you should have just nerfed bramma and not every other weapon.

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please...tell me why

why have you add knockback ti sonicor... It suck now...as always: nerf stupid op new weapon? Nah

nerf all explosive weapons? OMG yes 

....pityfull 

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I've used the Shedu some in the new event and have to say that the stagger mechanic does not belong on it at all. You frequently want to use this weapon at closer range, especially since it has a built in short range mechanic when it runs out of ammo. You literally designed this weapon to be used at close range then seemingly forgot shortly afterwards and added a self-stagger. It makes no sense whatsoever. The stagger on many of the weapons continue to make no sense. Just re-iterating my feedback that this effect should be removed except on the occasional weapon where it makes some kind of thematic sense for there to be a knockback from some massive explosion. 

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DE, I DESPISE THIS WHOLE STAGGER THING. 

I cannot stress how much I loathe it. I thought I could deal with it on everything but the operator BUT IT ALL SUCKS. It's the most jarring, flow-of-battle-ruining change. Oh god PLEASE get rid of it. It was fine before. WHO SPECIFICALLY ON THE DEV TEAM THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA?

 

 

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Earlier in this threat I gave inaccurate feedback regarding the Shraksun scaffold.    After some testing,  I realize that the reason I keep getting staggered is because of a change in behavior beyond the addition of self-stagger and increase in explosion radius.

 

Previously,  the Shraksun had a unique behavior.   It would punch through enemies and terrain up to its maximum range,  and then explode.   Enemies it punched through would take damage from the impact.    This behavior was often used during Eidolon hunts to get multiple hits per shot and was key to its DPS.

Shraksun's new behavior is to explode on impact.  Compared to the old behavior this is very annoying.    It requires precise distancing from targets of direct fire,  due to the very narrow range at which it can be safely fired and still hit,  and its no longer capable of hitting multiple targets in a line,   or striking eidolons multiple times. 

  In my previous post I said that the change makes Propa the only viable scaffold for Eidolon hunts,  and I stand by that assessment.  Propa  was always stronger than Shraksun,   with Shraksun being more reliable and consistent,  and easier to use.     Propa remains stronger than Sharksun,   but not Shraksun is less reliable and more difficult to use.   The self-stagger addition would be tolerable if the punch through behavior hadn't changed.     

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honestly I'm fine with self damage being removed but I think self procing should stay possibly being done through specific mods like concealed explosives this will help warframes like chroma and mirage self procing toxin for chromas vex armor and self procing electricity for mirages eclipse this way you wouldnt have to completely rework the frames/abilities

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Posted (edited)

After playing with them for a bit, I think the explosive weapon changes are 100% appropriate and make good sense.  As before, stay out of range of my shots and I got nothing to worry about.  But now, if I accidentally use them point blank I don't kill myself instantly.  Yeah, the stagger is annoying, but it beats the hell out of one-shotting myself onto the ground.  And cautious shot can block it most of the time anyway.

There is a lot of salt in this thread, but I've played with the changes.  It is still fun and it works fine.  Good job, DE!

Edited by wilc0x

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2 hours ago, wilc0x said:

After playing with them for a bit, I think the explosive weapon changes are 100% appropriate and make good sense.  As before, stay out of range of my shots and I got nothing to worry about.  But now, if I accidentally use them point blank I don't kill myself instantly.  Yeah, the stagger is annoying, but it beats the hell out of one-shotting myself onto the ground.  And cautious shot can block it most of the time anyway.

There is a lot of salt in this thread, but I've played with the changes.  It is still fun and it works fine.  Good job, DE!

Guys, Lord wilc0x has played with the changes and personally likes them, so the 26 pages of posts of 90% disagreement are very clearly just "salt", so well done DE!

Facedesk. You couldn't come up with a more self-assured, ignorant post if you tried.

Speaking personally, I just really liked playing WF before, now I don't, that's all, and it makes me sad because I've enjoyed this game for a very long time. My favourite activity of solo tridolon hunting (w/shraksun) went from being an intense, punishing, difficult, yet extremely rewarding activity to downright frustrating because being staggered every single time I shoot as operator. Solo 1hr+ arbitrations using off-meta explosive weapons (because fun!) is nowhere near viable anymore. There's many other negative impacts of the stagger/AoE changes but they're all listed in this thread so no need to go over them again.

I've logged in only twice since the update and have since rediscovered KSP and War Thunder as my main games, so no biggie 😄 as long as everybody is having fun then we're all good.

On a parting note, it is interesting to see the gigantic explosion in the concurrent players of other semi-popular games during the Covid pandemic, but only a very slight increase for WF, despite a huge patch just recently being released... I find it a little bit telling.

o7 thanks for the aquatic life forms

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, zarvox said:

Guys, Lord wilc0x has played with the changes and personally likes them, so the 26 pages of posts of 90% disagreement are very clearly just "salt", so well done DE!

Facedesk. You couldn't come up with a more self-assured, ignorant post if you tried.

I'm just throwing a competing perspective into the thread... most people who don't hate the changes aren't going to come here to post.  The fact that I personally think the changes are fine is roughly equal in weight to the fact that you personally do not.

This game undergoes major changes fairly frequently.  Every time, many are up in arms over it (I have been that guy before,) and this time around those changes feel pretty good to me.  So, I am here to let DE know that not everyone hates this.  Some of us think the changes are good.

And that's not to say that certain tweaks aren't warranted.  Everything could use a little polish sometimes.  But broadly speaking, I think this revision was a big winner.

Ironically, the tone of your post clearly demonstrates the salt I was pointing to... I posted here to share an opposing perspective in the "revert these changes" forum thread, not to insult other posters who happen to disagree with me.

Edited by wilc0x

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30 minutes ago, wilc0x said:

I'm just throwing a competing perspective into the thread... most people who don't hate the changes aren't going to come here to post.  The fact that I personally think the changes are fine is roughly equal in weight to the fact that you personally do not.

You do realise that's the exact same justification as to why self-damage being removed at all was not necessary, don't you? "Everyone" complained about self-damage, barring a few diehard debaters like myself who came to point out what was right (allied collision issues) and what was just self-entitled wrongness (I can't aim not up my nose, DE please fix 4% of weapons so this doesn't harm my delicate sensibilities).

But the many people who didn't hate it were just in the game, either letting these weapons exist as the niche they were (if not personally into that playstyle) or using them as they felt comfortable doing.

 

But because DE listened to the vocal minority who Absolutely Detest Self Damage And Must Remove Other People's Fun For My Relatively Insignificant Benefit, everything has suffered. 

We don't have thrilling risky explosives, we have a pain-in-the-arse stagger (unless you circumvent the 'drawback', surprise surprise that's easy to do) and because DE grants wishes like a monkey's paw, reminding them what went wrong last time they took away the risk factor of explosives meant that almost every AOE in the game now pretty much sucks at AOE compared to before.

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The reason people wanted self-damage removed was because dying was annoying and staggers are a million times worse. Now we get disruptive staggers no matter how much health you have or how weak a weapon is. You even added it to weapons/projectiles from weapons that had 0 self-damage specifically because they couldn't avoid it and niche weapons you felt like nerfing for no reason at all. They weren't even compensated for it with buffs, instead they also got huge damage nerfs because of the damage falloff you added instead of just nerfing the Kuva Bramma.

At this point I' wish warframe revised would have never happened since you seem to have already moved on to your next set of nerfs leaving most of my favorite weapons in the garbage.

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23 hours ago, Rogunz said:

The reason people wanted self-damage removed was because dying was annoying and staggers are a million times worse. Now we get disruptive staggers no matter how much health you have or how weak a weapon is. You even added it to weapons/projectiles from weapons that had 0 self-damage specifically because they couldn't avoid it and niche weapons you felt like nerfing for no reason at all. They weren't even compensated for it with buffs, instead they also got huge damage nerfs because of the damage falloff you added instead of just nerfing the Kuva Bramma.

At this point I' wish warframe revised would have never happened since you seem to have already moved on to your next set of nerfs leaving most of my favorite weapons in the garbage.

Why it's best not to ask for nerfs to anything. 

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       I really don't want to be that guy, but this overall nerf to explosive and concussive weapons is way overboard.  I could get behind explosive weapons that did massive damage also being able to do massive damage to the player; regardless of the collision that would get in the way of the shot.  Basically it was a high risk / high reward weapon choice. 

       Now all explosive weapons that had a tiny blast radius are nothing more than a rifle that can stagger the player, and the rest of the explosive weapons that do have a reasonable explosive range...  well, there basically in the same boat.  The lenz has one of the largest explosive radius's in the game (around 8 meters), and it's still small when you have a 45% damage drop-off literally 4 meters from the center (and 4 meters in the game is literally nothing; comparable to 3 elite lancers standing shoulder to shoulder).  It would be more beneficial to use literally anything else at that point.

       And then on top of that, you put stagger on weapons that didn't even have self damage in the first place.  WHY?!  Why would you nerf weapons that you didn't even deem worthy of self damage?  I loved my sonicor.  It wasn't there for damage, it was there to clear out tiny hallways that were congested with enemies.  It was used for CC.  Why would you nerf a weapon that; if anything, needed a buff?!  The sonicor was a short-ranged concussive CC weapon; emphasis on the SHORT RANGED.  You need to approach your enemies to use this weapon.  You get staggered because you're too close to the explosive.  You see the problem here?  You made a weapon that was pure enjoyment to use completely unenjoyable.  It didn't kill anything, it didn't clear rooms, it didn't make the game easy; it just added survivability and enjoyment to the game.  Nothing too much, nothing too little.  Now it's nothing more than another weapon for master fodder.  People will pick it up thinking that its cool, realize its not fun to use since you get staggered 99% of the time you're using it to move things out of your way, and toss it in the bin after they level it up.  And if that's what happened to the sonicor, I can only imagine it happened with other concussive or explosive weapons.

       I would suggest rolling the explosives back to what they were previously with self damage and explore another avenue to deal with them properly.  This is by far the worst idea you have come up with in regards to fixing this problem.

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<> The update to launchers and status procs really messed up with Lenz:

- inconsistent stagger due to Aoe and visual bubble not corresponding

- massive nerf to area damage - lenz should have remained without drop-off it's an implosion weapon the damage starts from the border!

- cold effect rooting enemies in the area isn't working properly anymore and enemies can evade the explosion even by crossing trhough the entire area

<> Honestly whoever wrote the changes to launchers doesn't play or even understand the game... at all

Self damage was a 80% solved issue with shield gating: you still have a sliver of shield=safe, you insisted to stay under enemy fire and shooting literally on your feet=moron + dead

What was missing was removing the detonation in case of hits on i allied imbeciles, pets and npcs... enemies doing suicide charges at you with your own ammunitions was somewhat plausible at least.

<> A lot of weapons that didn't have self damage for a reason got arbitrarily nerfed

<> Launchers damage got nerfed needlessly... meanwhile Saryn still gets a free pass.. at least she got hit by some fallout from status changes

 

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Am 2.3.2020 um 18:42 schrieb [DE]Bear:

Why: Several players brought up the history of the Tonkor and we want to make sure we ship this change in a place that’s conservative in its starting point from a balance perspective.

We are still at that starting point. Almost nothing has changed: staticor charged shot is still worthless, ogris is pretty much just dead, lenz aswell, bramma is mediocre, shraksun scaffold is pretty much unusable now, propa scaffold is also disappointing for how restrictive the projectile already is.

The weapons that didnt have self damage were just mega nerfed by this for no reason. The listed reason doesnt work for them because they already werent oppressive but got the damage fall off anyway.

The damage output from big AoE weapons was barely able to keep up with melee weapons and both fell behind frame abilities. You nerfed the weapons that were already the worst choice in AoE clear. I hate to say it but the way self damage weapons worked before the removal was better.

Solutions: 

  • Restore weapons that didnt have self damage to their previous state (removal of damage fall off and self stagger)
  • Remove damage falloff and self stagger from amps.
  • Remove the damage fall off from previous self damage weapons (or tone it down so the overwhelming majority of the AoE Volume, not radius, does 70% of the modded damage or more), self stagger can stay on the bramma as it is a good enough gun to warrant a risk, other former self damage weapons need the stagger removed as they were already pretty garbage.
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Stagger still has a chance to bug you and disable everything but walking around if it interrupts an ability cast, firing/reload, or other animation. this is sometimes fixed when the time limit on the stagger is hit (when your warframe would stand up on its own had it been knocked down) but not always. This seems to happen more frequently on high ROF weapons like Basmu/Zhuge prime, where you can stagger yourself multiple times in quick succession (stagger animation being interrupted by stagger animation) although being near a crowd of enemies that have knockdown poses the same risk (IE two heavy gunners both using ground slam in quick succession)

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2 hours ago, pantophage said:

Stagger still has a chance to bug you and disable everything but walking around if it interrupts an ability cast, firing/reload, or other animation. this is sometimes fixed when the time limit on the stagger is hit (when your warframe would stand up on its own had it been knocked down) but not always. This seems to happen more frequently on high ROF weapons like Basmu/Zhuge prime, where you can stagger yourself multiple times in quick succession (stagger animation being interrupted by stagger animation) although being near a crowd of enemies that have knockdown poses the same risk (IE two heavy gunners both using ground slam in quick succession)

I also have it happen a lot of the time when I am fighting the Eidolons with my Sharksun scaffold equipped amps.

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-04-03 at 12:57 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

You do realise that's the exact same justification as to why self-damage being removed at all was not necessary, don't you? "Everyone" complained about self-damage, barring a few diehard debaters like myself who came to point out what was right (allied collision issues) and what was just self-entitled wrongness (I can't aim not up my nose, DE please fix 4% of weapons so this doesn't harm my delicate sensibilities).

But the many people who didn't hate it were just in the game, either letting these weapons exist as the niche they were (if not personally into that playstyle) or using them as they felt comfortable doing.

 

But because DE listened to the vocal minority who Absolutely Detest Self Damage And Must Remove Other People's Fun For My Relatively Insignificant Benefit, everything has suffered. 

We don't have thrilling risky explosives, we have a pain-in-the-arse stagger (unless you circumvent the 'drawback', surprise surprise that's easy to do) and because DE grants wishes like a monkey's paw, reminding them what went wrong last time they took away the risk factor of explosives meant that almost every AOE in the game now pretty much sucks at AOE compared to before.

Except that I'm sure play rates have been logged at this point, Bramma seems to have gotten even more popular, and Exodia Contagion has new life breathed into it as well, despite the horrible falloff, and the self-stagger (better to be staggered than instantly dead as these weapons would've made you before). It's the other explosive weapons that have taken a downturn, the reason isn't the "loss of self-damage", it's that their falloff has taken away the reason to use them, they weren't the most popular before, because it wasn't worth killing yourself to do middling damage when you could use options that did the same without downside, and they're not worth using now, because damage falloff has made them even worse, they lowered both the risk AND the "reward" when the initial problem was that that ratio was already in bad shape. Had they only lowered risk (changing self-damage into stagger) OR increased reward (made more aoe weapons damage approach the bramma and exodia contagion) and not changed things on the other side of the equation people would've been a lot happier.

Not to mention the biggest tragedy of the whole thing, the weapons that had no self-damage before receiving the giant falloff nerfs along with self stagger, so they got purely, much, much worse. Just because DE tends to "balance things like monkey paw wishes", that's not a reason not to ask for things, if you asked your roomate to clean his half of the room, and he did so by throwing all his junk onto your side, you don't "not ask him to do it next time", you tell him he did it wrong, and ask him to do it right next time.

Edited by Sylonus
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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

Except that I'm sure play rates have been logged at this point, Bramma seems to have gotten even more popular, and Exodia Contagion has new life breathed into it as well, despite the horrible falloff, and the self-stagger (better to be staggered than instantly dead as these weapons would've made you before). It's the other explosive weapons that have taken a downturn, the reason isn't the "loss of self-damage", it's that their falloff has taken away the reason to use them, they weren't the most popular before, because it wasn't worth killing yourself to do middling damage when you could use options that did the same without downside, and they're not worth using now, because damage falloff has made them even worse, they lowered both the risk AND the "reward" when the initial problem was that that ratio was already in bad shape. Had they only lowered risk (changing self-damage into stagger) OR increased reward (made more aoe weapons damage approach the bramma and exodia contagion) and not changed things on the other side of the equation people would've been a lot happier.

Not to mention the biggest tragedy of the whole thing, the weapons that had no self-damage before receiving the giant falloff nerfs along with self stagger, so they got purely, much, much worse. Just because DE tends to "balance things like monkey paw wishes", that's not a reason not to ask for things, if you asked your roomate to clean his half of the room, and he did so by throwing all his junk onto your side, you don't "not ask him to do it next time", you tell him he did it wrong, and ask him to do it right next time.

They didn't have to be the most popular weapons. In fact, it'd probably be a bad sign if they were. The place of a risky weapon is by nature more situational, the average middle ground of players won't be interested in flexing into those situations often or at all, they'd just bring something that works everywhere.

The fact is, this collateral damage - as I've explained in the abstract before - was inevitable in the event of an effectively complete risk removal. The balance scale across weapon categories, even though risky AOEs were generally under curve, had to springily flex back and forth to find the new best aggregate.

Unfortunately, just increasing the reward wasn't on the table because of the complaints - as seen in Cautious Shot criticisms, the vocal whining would be exacerbated by making something fatal only more self-overkilling. Additionally, even if they did brave that backlash, the risk of astronomical reward is to tantamount force people to use them (see Limbo in the Scarlet Spear event - his sheer effectiveness forced many to opt into him who might have rather played something else that just.. doesn't work as well).

 

The problem is always that our output scales to a far stronger curve than our health does. All they needed to do was make the risk account for that non-linear relationship. Risks reduced, but still real and relevant. Then, remove the 'circumvention' tactics to avoid breaking that balance.

From there, just as they went through each weapon to curate its falloff, they could have touched up the actual damage reward levels of each weapon to where they befitted the new, properly-balanced risks. But instead, they're digging in their heels and keeping this bland homogenisation.

 

Ever Risky weapons were less than 10% of the total available options.
Dumbfire Risky weapons were less than half of that.

They were a niche from the outset, so nobody needed to use them. Entitled players shouldn't have had the niche removed to suit their insignificant benefits. Nothing, not anywhere in the game, forced using the 'disliked' mechanic.

Edited by TheLexiConArtist
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So far this change has made me avoid AOE weapons on frames without stagger/knockdown immunity and avoid my amps entirely. Looking forward to acquiring Primed Sure Footed in about 50 days. I doubt this is the outcome you had in mind, but I have no way of knowing because it seems you have a habit of leaving your feedback sections to rot. Could we get a statement on these issues, or do we have to delve through the streams to find it?

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If hundreds of twitch viewers were to tell them to fix it, maybe they'd actually see the feedback. Not necessarily act on it but at least they'd hear about it.

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Removing self damage was a terrible idea, shame on the players that wanted it removed, and those that listened to them. Just came back to check in on things after some family issues, and the game has degenerated into heavy attack spam, and close range explosive weapon fire spam. It's a little disappointing to say the least.

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While leveling Titania Prime I was using a Shedu. Her 1 buff makes you immune to the stagger effect. 

Play with a Shedu on Titania (or whatever else gives you immunity to the stagger) and see the difference with and without having to deal with that stagger and try to tell me you really think this weapon is better off with a self-stagger effect. The weapon was clearly designed to be able to be used close up. It even has a very short radius AoE burst when your clip runs out. Whoever designed the weapon obviously did not intend for you to get knocked down or staggered if you shoot in point blank when they added the AoE pulse. There is no rational logical reason for this weapon to have a self-stagger.

I think the same goes for things like the Staticor. 

 

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Manual recovery from knockdown is so unintuitive and unfun, not to mention if I get caught by a grappling hook (which funnily enough seems to be more accurate again...).  Forcing us to use a mod or a frame without knockdown/stagger does mean it's an ok addition to the game.  I'd rather have self damage back than the current changes to knockdown....

Now I'm guessing this is side effect due to the changes to knockdown - Titania's 'constant spinning' due to the way she now interacts with every minute hit in razorwing is annoying/confusing and along with the other changes to the way razorwing moves is actually worse than the previous version...   can we maybe get an option of which version we'd like to use because I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting the old flight model back...

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Now I'm guessing this is side effect due to the changes to knockdown - Titania's 'constant spinning' due to the way she now interacts with every minute hit in razorwing is annoying/confusing and along with the other changes to the way razorwing moves is actually worse than the previous version...   can we maybe get an option of which version we'd like to use because I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting the old flight model back...

Upkeep your 1 on yourself and collision recoil is completely gone, not unlike having Amesha's protection drones. Conveniently enough, if you're running Razorwing Blitz you need to be casting something every 20-30 seconds anyway, so it works out nicely for that purpose. The forced self-cast she now has the option of using is also much more convenient than before.

Edited by TheLexiConArtist

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