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Warframe Revised: Removing Self-Damage / Stagger Megathread

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After doing some testing in Kuva relic missions (so 70 ish) Most AOE weapons are not ONLY fancy flashy riftles now. Or in the case of the Lenz, a real flashy time delayed bow. 

Thanks DE you took the feed back of people who can't rub 2 brain cells to use a set of weapons and destroyed them. Not only that you ADDED weapons to this list that had no right to be added. I enjoyed playing with explosive weapons and was thoroughly enjoying the bramma as it ACTUALLY WORKED IN HIGHER LEVEL MISSIONS as a explosive weapon. But now.... the Bramma is real flashy but struggles. And its the hardest hitting of them. 

The Kuva tonqor is not much more then a slug firing shot gun. Its AOE is largely useless. Thank you I totally liked using it because I wanted a arty version slow projectile with heavy arching of a shot gun!

Kuva Ogris, only really effective now with the naplme. And even then any Eximus foe shows up and your using a fire cracker with direct hits. Good job another weapon ruined. 

Even the Lenz is just a flashy bow now. Its bubble is pointless unless a foe is in the middle which... with that delay, good luck. 

Thank you DE, one of the biggest things I loved about the game was I could use rockets and explosions and not get penilized for some body wanting to use bullets like every other shooter out there. We can't have people enjoying explosives can we? Would take away from bullet hoses or something. Thank you for ruining a fun weapon group. All so people can play like they are using a riftle. 

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Posted (edited)

Please reconsider the stagger on Operator. I tested it and it is just not fun.
That and blast weapons damage radius while large does so little damage from the center, should just make them laser?

Edited by Nasair
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Here's a demonstration of what the Bramma does against lvl 170 heavy gunners, using Corrosive Projection but no Vigilante mods. " Aiming true" and placing your shots right have turned into the sub-optimal strategy, while the best thing you can do is equip a frame that nullifies the stagger, then aimlessly run around and spam shots everywhere.

In short, you couldn't have picked a worse way to balance AoE weapons. Back to the drawing board, DE.

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Posted (edited)

After thinking it through, I was somewhat sceptical about the self-damage -> stagger change, and testing confirmed my feelings: It's bloody garbage.

What was a somewhat overblown risk/reward situation, went to annoyance/reward reward situation, with the annoyance being tossed around in near-slow motion. It might be amusing and cool in a dramatic Michael Boom action movie shot in Warframe, but for combat use it's just really annoying how slow the animations are without mods like Handspring.

I'm pretty sure I'd have preferred a %-based self-damage system, with it doing increasingly more the closer you are to the centre. Example fall-off: 75% at centre to 25% at edge. That would still make it have a risk component when blowing up an explosive in your face, but with some healing synergy, it would be manageable. On top of that, being %-based means it's a similar risk for all frames, excluding abilities like Revenant's skin.

Edit: some of the other 'aoe' weapons also getting stagger is just the icing on the annoyance cake. It also doesn't help that Cautious shot is both powerful in preventing the worst staggering at range, yet nerfed hard at the same time. Previously, it had a rather universal (for those weapons which could use it) self-damage reduction, regardless of how close you were. Now, it's just a lack-lustre yet still important 'downtiering' of the staggering.

Edited by Alighierian
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With self damage being gone can we expect a revert to previous glaive changes?

Zitat

Update 26.0

As a general note, self damage has been removed from Glaive power throws. As this decision made it through the testing pipeline, some mentioned this impacts a specific Chroma interaction, but positively impacts 41 other Warframes.

 

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Now that getting hit by your own projectiles is less of a penalty, maybe Exodia Contagion could get a simpler input? Currently it's double-/bulletjump -> ADS + attack, which feels a little bit clunky, especially ever since the ADS requirement was added. Not a big deal either way tho.

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Dear Warframe:

AoE weapons are not so great that they need a nerf. 90% debuff at max range with only a 20% increase in range is a nerf. There are only a couple of weapons that were even viable in this category, and they were viable because they could deal the large damage over an area despite their slow fire rate, high reload speed, low clip capacity, and such.
 

Tonkor issues happened because 1. Auto headshots on a crit based weapon is a problem no matter where it is. and 2. If people are wanting to play an AoE weapon for the fun of it they don't want to die, and the Tonkor's 50 self-damage (as opposed to "auto kill yourself") made it the only option. When (1) disappeared the Tonkor stopped being a meta weapon and went to only being a "fun" weapon. When (2) disappeared the Tonkor became trash tier. Nerfing all weapons because you are making (2) less of an issue is completely missing the point that (1) was the problem.

 

Considering the long downtime that you get from being hit (don't call it a "stagger" when it is a knockdown, that is just misleading) this still leaves these weapons still in a very bad place (and 90% chance to avoid it isn't enough, especially since it takes up a mod slot).

Honestly, I'm hoping for some quick changes, but I'm not expecting it. I'm expecting that the number crunchers will see people trying out the changes and go "EVERYTHING IS FIXED, PEOPLE DON'T HATE THESE WEAPONS ANYMORE", without thinking about the fact that people are trying it out and that the changes still make these weapons objectively bad compared to everything else (even though they are still better than "kill yourself multiple times during a mission for using them at all"). Adding these problems to other weopens that were fine before only makes it less clear what the intention of these changes were.

So I ask, what is the point of "fixing" these weapons if you make them objectively worse, some worse than they were before but all worse than any other option players might have?

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What were you people thinking? I am really upset about just how badly the game plays now. I was looking forward to it, and we ge tthis completely un-playtested mess that completely breaks every aspect of the game. Are you putting internal alpha builds live? How did this happen?

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Not at home but when i come i expect im gonna leave wf till this is Fixed. 
 

Anyone tried arca plasmor? How bad is stagger

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, masterring said:

Not at home but when i come i expect im gonna leave wf till this is Fixed. 
 

Anyone tried arca plasmor? How bad is stagger

You're going to feel really scammed, they've effectively made any weapon with any amount of AoE unusuable. Every single shot staggers you for a random amount of time between like 2.5 to 10 seconds. Every single time a projectile comes from your weapon. And it's not just the weapons that did self damage, it's all weapons.

Edited by Asgaeroth
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14 минут назад, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu сказал:

 

Here's a demonstration of what the Bramma does against lvl 170 heavy gunners, using Corrosive Projection but no Vigilante mods. " Aiming true" and placing your shots right have turned into the sub-optimal strategy, while the best thing you can do is equip a frame that nullifies the stagger, then aimlessly run around and spam shots everywhere.

In short, you couldn't have picked a worse way to balance AoE weapons. Back to the drawing board, DE.

Bramma was actually a lot of fun landing direct precise shots from a far and oneshoting heavy target. I think they should increase direct damage for Bramma (it's a bow) and do damage falloff. And leave other explosives alone. But they have chosen very extravagant and fancy way to "nerf" Bramma

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1 minute ago, EnderDDT said:

Dear Warframe:

AoE weapons are not so great that they need a nerf. 90% debuff at max range with only a 20% increase in range is a nerf. There are only a couple of weapons that were even viable in this category, and they were viable because they could deal the large damage over an area despite their slow fire rate, high reload speed, low clip capacity, and such.
 

Tonkor issues happened because 1. Auto headshots on a crit based weapon is a problem no matter where it is. and 2. If people are wanting to play an AoE weapon for the fun of it they don't want to die, and the Tonkor's 50 self-damage (as opposed to "auto kill yourself") made it the only option. When (1) disappeared the Tonkor stopped being a meta weapon and went to only being a "fun" weapon. When (2) disappeared the Tonkor became trash tier. Nerfing all weapons because you are making (2) less of an issue is completely missing the point that (1) was the problem

ABSOLUTELY incorrect. The autoheadshot removal further destroyed all radials/launchers and it took an eternity until the balance pass tried to bring them back up. Yes, it was doubly-effective for the Tonkor due to 'headcrits', but the Tonkor was still abused after autoheadshot was removed.

If a person is taking an explosive weapon out for the fun of explosives, then yes, they accept the risk of dying. If you offer an explosive weapon with all of the rewards (or more, courtesy headcrit) but none of the risk, that's not 'fun', that's just a broken implementation. We saw the same with the Arca Plasmor and Catchmoon - "shotguns" that didn't suffer the key component of shotguns i.e. a pellet/spread consideration, and oh, look! They were busted as well.

You also overlooked the other component when Tonkor was finally given its appropriate self-damage. It got stat nerfs at the same time. So let's recap:
>  Remove excessive reward due to unintended headcrit interaction (=25% output)
>  Apply missing risk factor to balance reward (unscaling irrelevant 'risk' -> risk/reward linked)
>  Further reduce reward potential. (nerfed base stats)

If that last one hadn't been included - yes, in the same patch as the self-damage - then it might not have been trash-tier. If it had been included but autoheadshot had always remained, all launchers might not have been made utterly useless for years hence.

 

The self-damage was only a problem to those who thoughtlessly shot grenades into their own personal bubble. It's a 'problem' only if you want something that breaks the foundation of the weapon's balance for you to abuse it at your leisure.

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Posted (edited)

The stagger is applying to Cyanex shots that don't even explode and bounce off the terrain, for a spray-and-pray weapon this has made it very painful to use even in open environments.

I just got a riven for it (and multishot too for added silliness) and so I'm pretty heartbroken to find out how badly this change is affecting it, a weapon that didn't even have self-damage to begin with.

Edited by Wyrd_Oh

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14 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

" Aiming true" and placing your shots right have turned into the sub-optimal strategy, while the best thing you can do is equip a frame that nullifies the stagger, then aimlessly run around and spam shots everywhere.

In short, you couldn't have picked a worse way to balance AoE weapons. Back to the drawing board, DE.

To make a bad situation worse, you can do it with any frame with Primed Surefooted. You can have your subterranean fireworks party with any Frame now, even Mirage.

temp.gif

This is with a Kulstar too.

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So can we get back all the formas we used on previously non self dmg weapons that got this brilliant stagger effect now. Whoever came up with this idea should be hired by EA. 

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1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Because people cried for self-damage to be gone and can't deal with the collateral damage dealt to the entire weapon archetype when that primary balancing factor is removed and something has to take its place. And then, because of that paradigm shift, there'd be even less reason to use them over previously non-damaging AOEs, so everybody loses thanks to self-damage complaints.

Congratulations guys! You did it! :clap:

No, actually what happened was that people like you insisted again and again about how critical self-damage was to balance Warframe's AOE weapons when it could have been removed with exactly zero negative impact to the game besides for self-damagers no longer being able to act all smug about how other people needed to 'git gud', leading to the dev team removing self-damage anyways because it was not, in fact, a fun or useful balance point (because frustration does not, and never does, balance power) and then releasing changes that were deliberately undertuned because buffing from a deliberately undertuned point is easier than nerfing something that's overtuned and you folks convinced DE that launchers would be overpowered without self-damage.

Congratulations! You played yourselves.

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

No, actually what happened was that people like you insisted again and again about how critical self-damage was to balance Warframe's AOE weapons when it could have been removed with exactly zero negative impact to the game besides for self-damagers no longer being able to act all smug about how other people needed to 'git gud', leading to the dev team removing self-damage anyways because it was not, in fact, a fun or useful balance point (because frustration does not, and never does, balance power) and then releasing changes that were deliberately undertuned because buffing from a deliberately undertuned point is easier than nerfing something that's overtuned and you folks convinced DE that launchers would be overpowered without self-damage.

Congratulations! You played yourselves.

Cautious Shot at 99% was so effective that you had a hard time killing yourself on something like Banshee or Zephyr. The only people we have to thank for this garbage is broke-ass bandwagon complainers.

Edited by Emperrier
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I am absolutely furious about this I can hardly think straight. I just invested more money into the game and I have hundreds of formas in weapons that are no longer usable at all. My entire weapon collection is broken, I don't own a single weapon that doesn't permanently CC me. How could they do this to us? What could possibly be the reason?

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The damage falloff on explosives make every one of these weapons feel like single-target weapons, especially at higher levels. This feels really strange and bad, especially on top of how far the stagger can happen. 90% falloff feels too severe a change.

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3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

This is a mistake. You have taken the power fantasy of a "so dangerous I'm at risk myself" weapon category and turned them into beanbag throwers.

 

PLEASE revert this horrible decision and return self-damage with appropriate balance/QOL improvements:

  1. Use a formula on self-damage instead of having it be a linear (no matter how small) percentage of output damage. This will allow the different scaling of player health versus player damage to be properly balanced for the risk/reward ratio of the weapons.
  2. Remove allied unit collision for all projectiles with no positive usage case in doing so. This was the #1 argument for "unpredictable" self-damage. It also affects everything else that isn't self-damage - therefore killing the player 'unfairly' was a symptom not the cause.
  3. Consider adding small UI markers on unexploded payloads (example: Elytron archwing payloads in flight) to address concerns about 'bouncing' explosives and forgotten manual-trigger explosives the player is less able to recognise as a risk.
  4. After the above, make a pass on damage output for the ~20 weapons with self-damage risks so that they can be given an appropriate (but not overwhelming) better reward to justify the risk of usage (which is reduced at most levels due to point 1)

That's it. That's all you needed to do.

 

If you wanted to give previously non-self-damage AOE weapons a self-stagger effect to limit them from becoming too predominant over non-AOE weapons, that would be fine. With this, and the balance changes stated above, this would provide an AOE weapon hierarchy with valid choices based on the player's preference and enjoyment (whether they like the risk of death and how immediate a risk) thus:

  1. Minimal risk (Self-Staggering based on proximity) with smallest AOE reward (Less damage or radial falloff)
  2. Moderate risk (Delayed, smart-arming or triggered self-damage) with medium AOE rewards (mid-damage, no/minor falloff)
  3. High risk (Pure Dumbfire self-damage) with highest AOE rewards (definitely no falloff, largest damage)

 

Not every player has to like using every weapon. For every complaint about self-damage, odds are there was a player using self-damage and being fine with it - they just had less reason to speak up because the status quo was in their favour! Do not succumb to confirmation bias!

Give thrill-seeker players their niche back. It was already less than 10% of weapon options to begin with.

I see  your point,  but now there's no reason to use explosives with 90% fallout damage and just use and rifle. 

These could go two ways. 

They revert this changes and revalance explosives. 

Or we wait 20XX year to come back with this issue (I'd the game doesn't die first that is). 

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Il y a 3 heures, RX-3DR a dit :

I'm sorry but this is completely screwed up. This is the state of explosive weapons now. You can literally play as a walking explosion.

temp.gif

You've basically removed Self-Damage completely by applying this change to Primed Sure-Footed. Which also means you've given a massive lazy strategy that people will have to wait years for.

to do high damage at close range, you already have your melee weapon...

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Stagger on Cyanex seems to be slightly flawed as the bullets also cause stagger. It would be fine, if the bullets didn't bounce.

And the radial attack damage fall off seriously hurts it, as Cyanex has range of only 0.7. I'm not certain, but it feels like I only do half damage to enemies that I directly hit.

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For guns like the staticor, sonicor, kuva chakkhurr, astilla, and so forth that DID NOT have self-damage before the update, this is nothing less than an outright and unwarranted nerf. These guns were already okay and not too meta before the changes to AoE weapons, but now they will struggle to compete. Here are some of the outcomes for the changes in the wake of the changes to AoE weapons as a whole.

  • Crit is no longer "King": Thanks to the whopping 90% nerf to falloff, crit on AoE weapons has now become irrelevant compared to status chance. Because status is the same despite the fall-off, and statuses do not rely on damage but FREQUENCY for their effects, the only decent outcome of enemies hit near or at the limit of the AoE are status procs.
  • Stagger is a bad stopgap: Because there are mods that essentially prevent stagger entirely, AoE weapons can now be used without any recoil worries whatsoever. A person can run around shooting a kuva bramma at their feet with abandon, blowing up the enemies around them. this is true for weapons that there was a reason for self-damage to begin with.
  • No AoE weapon deserves a nerf like this, and not all AoE weapons deserve a nerf AT ALLThe 90% fall off is ridiculous for most if not all AoE weapons. What is even more absurd is that weapons whose mechanics were already built around NOT having self-damage AoE ALSO got this crippling nerf. Weapons like the staticor actually had self-damage REMOVED from them in the past after it was decidedly bad on a weapon like it. Now the hard-won non-damaging AoE got replaced with a stagger that makes a non-meta gun even more underwhelming (not to mention how horrendous the 90% falloff further exasperates the problem). The weapon I would say is hit the hardest by this change, is the Kuva Chakkhurr. Prior to the update, it was, in my eyes, a gun that competed with the Komorex as the crit-variant to the status-oriented sniper rifle. Now, with the 90% dmg falloff, and an added stagger to a gun that had no self-damage (id argue this is what made the Chakkhurr stand out any, at all) to begin with, how can it possibly compete with an innate-viral explosive sniper rifle now? These guns were good, but not meta or jaw-dropping before the AoE changes. Now, they are just underwhelming or sub-par as a result to changes that should not have happened.

How I would suggest going about this: Change the 90% falloff to only 50% at MOST. Give the damage buff only to the prior-Non-self-damage AoE weapons that are impacted by the update, either consider scrapping the entire AoE update and reverting a lot of the changes, or add in a nerfed self-damage in place of stagger.

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1 minute ago, Emperrier said:

Cautious Shot at 99% was so effective that you had a hard time killing yourself with a Bramma on something like Banshee or Zephyr. The only people we have to thank for this garbage is broke-ass bandwagon complainers.

You literally couldn't put cautious shot on a Bramma or Lenz thanks to how weapons were coded. And on far less self-damaging weapons, it was considered pretty worthless.

https://spuf.org/2020/03/02/cautious-shot-is-a-worthless-mod/

And there's also, you know, the irony of acting like an expensive mod that eats a precious mod slot and reduces your damage is a great solution to the problem that self-damage is an anti-fun mechanic that creates a skill floor rather than increasing the skill ceiling, and serves no real purpose in a game like Warframe, which is the entire rationale for why it was removed.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, GKP_light said:

to do high damage at close range, you already have your melee weapon...

So what purpose does the current model of explosive weapons serve? A pseudo-Gunblade? The changes basically made them work best by blind mashing in close range. Conventional weapons pale in comparison by sheer absurdity of blindly firing all over the place since you're going to do some amount of damage if you're looking in the remote direction of an enemy. The push for accessibility has really just resulted in this ridiculous concept of explosive weapons. There's no where to work towards from here besides just making them nuke rooms because "it's fun". Ultimately, if you're running something to cancel out the stagger, you're better off lighting a box of fireworks and having them shoot everywhere, including your feet except for the few bullet sponge situations, guns are optional.

Edited by RX-3DR

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