Jump to content
[DE]Bear

Warframe Revised: Removing Self-Damage / Stagger Megathread

Recommended Posts

Was it intentional to make amp using as annoying as possible with stagger? Please reduce or delete it for operator amps as it makes experience of tridolon hunting very annoying,

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the changes fell like a huge nerf on the staticor that didn't had self damage and now have stagger  and +20% range but the damage reduction on the aoe

also please remove the stagger effect on the teeno from his amp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why is it always the niche-weapons like aoe/explosion weapons in this particular case that get nerfed to death to being actually too weak to use.  (not only the bramma/ogris but others like zarr etc)
The enemies, armor and shield values get reworked 'nicely' enough, but explosion weapons get nerfed to make ~10% dmg in comparison to before (telling us aim better to make the 90% dmg is a bit ridiculous when you look at the projectile falloff that's kinda different each time you shoot e.g. looking at bows ) 
Promising only 50% 'nerf' in the devstream and going all the way to 90% is again a broken 'promise'  (that's really overboard as a nerf)
Where's now the place to play weapons like this? in low/ mid missions where real aoe isn't needed. 
Is that really the way to go? So Rifles are the only weapon type that does a decent amount of dmg now?

I have to say, killing myself with a decent weapon for miscalculating the shot is a wayyyy better alternative to a 'wrap your child in bubblewrap and see it won't take dmg' attitude. I guess the players aren't supposed to be that entitled to be immune to dmg just because they kill themselfes in a reasonable matter.

In this game we're supposed to be 'ninjas with deadly talents and weapons' now imagine a ninja with an explosive kunai trying to kill e.g. 2 enemies but doing less than 10% dmg on this hit .__.
not ninja-like, not deadly, no self-awareness of harmful weapons and not a style aoe weapons are supposed to be in my opinion. Sure it's nice not to kill myself when a teammate runs in my vision, but that's the point here, they're team mates they can revive you. even for solo playing, there's the vasca kavat. the revives are there, too. 

concealed explosives mod is a topic on it's own, it even states be careful when using, but now all it does is staggering.... not dangerous and in my opinion this mod is kinda ruined now, it's explosive, so it's logical to not be in the immediate surroundings when firing because of dmg to yourself. 

Please fix at least a bit of this 'issue' (in lack of a better word atm.) 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Reaper76OTP said:
  • Damage fall-off is too much
  • Weapons that previously didn't do self damage SHOULD NOT STAGGER
  • (Instead of stagger, just let me yeet myself if the explosion is large enough. I've always wanted to rocket-jump.)

"Weapons that previously didn't do self damage SHOULD NOT STAGGER"

This is the biggest issue I have with the patch, why should some non-self damage weapons get hit with the stagger/nerf bat?

#MSGA (make Shedu great again)

Edited by UnknownContent
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So is it time for a Handspring/Pain Threshold combo mod?

(yay, more band aids)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As fo right now the explosive weapons are largely not worth it. It feels very much like 'we want self damage removed' *monkey paw finger curl.* 

Maybe tinkering with the ranges on that damage falloff? I can buy at the edges it not doing as much damage, but 90% and it feels like it's a very quick falloff from the center to boot. Maybe change it to 50% at the edges it'd feel better?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, UnknownContent said:

"Weapons that previously didn't do self damage SHOULD NOT STAGGER"

This is the biggest issue I have with the patch, why should some non-self damage weapons get hit with the stagger/nerf bat?

Risky explosives without risk would be overwhelming, so their rewards are reduced.

Annoying staggers on unrewarding (previously risky) explosives would make them objectively inferior to the non-risky AOEs without the 'thrill niche' argument.

Therefore, non-risky AOEs are given annoying staggers so that AOEs are all comparable with equal unrewarding annoyances.

 

All because people couldn't deal with not shooting at their feet. If self-damage had been addressed in itself, instead of throwing everything out of balance, there would have been little if any need to limit existing AOEs.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The damage falloff on aoe weapons is far, FAR too extreme to be reasonable. And its not like aoe weapons are the only guns capable of cutting through hordes of enemies easily, even outside of chaining beam weapons automatic guns with Punchthrough can just fire into a crowd to mop them up. Nothing about the damage reduction makes sense from a balance standpoint and aoe weapons no longer feel effective. If a aoe gun was not a horribly powerful single shot gun, its aoe is incredibly ineffective, so astilla, komorex, pox, simulor and so on are pretty much doomed to obscurity unless something is done. 

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, KommandantViy said:

My Zarr went from taking 3-4 blasts to kill a level 100 corrupted heavy gunner, to now taking around 12, even if I switch from corrosive, blast to corrosive, heat. 

 

Also is it just me or is the acceltra really weak now? I swear even direct hits are doing less damage than before the patch.

My Komorex still one/two shots a 140 bombard, but its AoE mode doesn't even scratch mobs in 2 meter radius. Might as well just remove it at this point.

It really seems as if they didn't playtest all these things, did they?

33 minutes ago, mikakor said:

"you don't want self damage on AoE weapon? FINE!!! AoE weapons are trash now!!! " out of pure spite.

I really doubt this was made out of spite. I think DE wanted to nerf everything related to AoE because it's one of the most comfortable ways of dealing with hundreds of enemies the game throws at you, and they also don't like this for some reason. Probably even more so with health/armor/shield changes. I also think  that removing self damage was just a very well timed excuse to nerf AoE at this point. Personally, seeing this incredibly lame and unsatisfying dropoff is just depressing for me.

I also love how changes to Status stealth-nerfed Slash instead of just reworking IPS, but this isn't a topic for this thread I guess.

All in all, DE wanted to "shake up" the "meta" and I really do respect that, some of the elemental status changes are pretty nice, along with health/shield/armor value tweaks. But butchering AoE weapons instead of using a dozen of other ways to address the issues people were having with self damage is just disappointing. Guess it'll be mostly melee or generic "meta" guns for me from now on.

Edited by Voghelm
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I'm wondering if explosive, low accuracy, high powered, area damage, as with the Bramma has been fixated on with this change, to the detriment of non-explosive, non-instantaneous area of effect weapons.

To me at least, the idea that an explosion only deals full damage when it hits a targets makes sense (though 90% fall-off seems a bit much); however, a lot of AOE weapons aren't explosive and particularly ones that rely as much on DOT, or on inflicting status, as raw damage, could seriously be hurt by suddenly going from no fall-off in their radius, to 90%. Rivens won't save the Torrid now.

Additionally, for the subsection of actually explosive weapons with tiny-radus/secondary-effects, I kind of have to wonder if it's necessary to give them fall-off?
How often does the reverse cone of the Tombfinger deal meaningful damage to crowds (without Pax_Seeker)?

It now shoots a bullet with 20% of the damage and then has a 15cm explosion to deal 80% of the damage, or 8% to enemies 1.5m away; while I very much like the concept of multistage projectile, turning this into effectively a graduated 3 part bullets just seems unnecessarily complicated, to stop an edge case of getting slightly more damage, from firing a relatively slow explosive shell 😞 .
 

I sincerely hope that in this specific case the code accounts for the fact that the primary target will always be on the outer fringe of the AOE, otherwise the gun will lose 72% of its' power 🙂 .
 

Lastly, for alt-modes, like the quanta, if implemented exactly as stated them, this change will make it completely pointless to ever use the alt-mode; that was already, from the non-damage stats, a massive decrease in damage, so the only reason to use the alt was to cover a group, something it soundly like it will no longer be apt for.

So is the alt-mode relegated to a crate opener now?


It seems either a lot of special cases need to be created, or that DE needs to be exaggerating when they say they've implemented this mechanic globally.

Edited by TheArcSet
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Voghelm said:

I really doubt this was made out of spite. I think DE wanted to nerf everything related to AoE because it's one of the most comfortable ways of dealing with hundreds of enemies the game throws at you, and they also don't like this for some reason.

personally, i think they are just scared because of the fear mongering such as (woops, no name calling right? i have more class than that, they'll know themselves 😛 ) , claiming how launchers without self damage will ruin the game, resulting in DE nerfing the crap out of it to avoid a chimera, something that wouldn't happen. the nerf to AoE damage happened because of Pro Self damage people, tell me about a shock 🤣 of course, it annoys me to no hell, so we have to fight so that DE get rid of this idiotic idea and make launchers great, something equal to other weapons in the game that everyone get to enjoy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Risky explosives without risk would be overwhelming, so their rewards are reduced.

Annoying staggers on unrewarding (previously risky) explosives would make them objectively inferior to the non-risky AOEs without the 'thrill niche' argument.

Therefore, non-risky AOEs are given annoying staggers so that AOEs are all comparable with equal unrewarding annoyances.

 

All because people couldn't deal with not shooting at their feet. If self-damage had been addressed in itself, instead of throwing everything out of balance, there would have been little if any need to limit existing AOEs.

I get WHY they did it but it seems like the non-self damage AOE weapons got included in the stagger patch at the 11th hour and should not have been, or at least they should have an adjusted lesser stagger or else it is just a straight nerf to that group of AOE weapons.

#MSGA

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Alejandrokek said:

So, AOE no longer means AOE, congratz DE, you did It!

Well put, it seems like the conflated and fixated on explosive damage and then mostly removed all AOE as a bodge fix for that  power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, mikakor said:

personally, i think they are just scared because of the fear mongering such as (woops, no name calling right? i have more class than that, they'll know themselves 😛 ) , claiming how launchers without self damage will ruin the game, resulting in DE nerfing the crap out of it to avoid a chimera, something that wouldn't happen. the nerf to AoE damage happened because of Pro Self damage people, tell me about a shock 🤣 of course, it annoys me to no hell, so we have to fight so that DE get rid of this idiotic idea and make launchers great, something equal to other weapons in the game that everyone get to enjoy.

Always watching, always judging. See, the difference between you and I is that I had historic fact on which to base my warnings. Consequently, it's because you (and your ilk) wouldn't accept self-damage that, as mentioned above, everything else has come crashing down to suffer. Because you insisted self-damage was gone, another limitation had to take its place. Because the payoffs were reduced to compensate, hitherto untouched weapons would have been so much better than dealing with the inconvenient annoyance, those had to get the same handicap. End result, a homogenised and universally god-awful category of bland, unfun AOE weapons.

Edited by TheLexiConArtist
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

So if we're gonna get staggered by all explosives/aoe's now why don't enemies get staggered by their own weapons too?

Edited by Moomabo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Because you insisted self-damage was gone, another limitation had to take its place.

no. no other limitation had to be placed and the AoE weapons would have been just fine. it's almost as if there was other, better, faster and more powerful weapons than AoE ones, making the whole point of limitation completely useless. the game would have been just fine. now we just have to prove it to DE. well, not you, since you straight up want old self damage back xD you're a funny man.

Edited by mikakor
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, mikakor said:

personally, i think they are just scared because of the fear mongering such as (woops, no name calling right? i have more class than that, they'll know themselves 😛 ) , claiming how launchers without self damage will ruin the game, resulting in DE nerfing the crap out of it to avoid a chimera, something that wouldn't happen. the nerf to AoE damage happened because of Pro Self damage people, tell me about a shock 🤣 of course, it annoys me to no hell, so we have to fight so that DE get rid of this idiotic idea and make launchers great, something equal to other weapons in the game that everyone get to enjoy.

I'm failing to see reasoning behind what you're saying, but okay.

Your stance on the self damage doesn't matter at all at this point. All they had to do was to make Cautious Shot work on Bramma and people probably would've stopped whining about it until the next big boom weapon releases.

If people's argument was that self damage/suicide was too much of a penalty, they just could've worked around the issue, you know? Like making allied NPC/Teammates be ignored by projectiles you shoot. Or, for example, increasing direct hit damage on the target you shoot, rewarding you with higher damage per target for actually shooting mobs and not walls/floor.

There were dozens of ways to address this, but they decided to just nerf everything related to gun AoE to this sorry unfun state. What's next, damage falloff for melee? Falloff for warframe abilities? Like, jeez.

If anything, I think that changes to armor/health might've prompted them to also nerf AoE so that mobs don't feel too easy to kill, but what's the point in that? Frame abilities aren't nerfed, neither is melee, so why launchers and guns with AoE in general have to suffer so much?

Either way, what I'm saying is no matter if you are pro- or anti-self damage, I'm confident to say that literally nobody (besides DE, probably) wanted AoE guns to be hit this hard.

Edited by Voghelm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Moomabo said:

So if we're gonna get staggered by all explosives/aoe's now why don't enemies get staggered by their own weapons too?

Because reasons. More than that, since Blast was reworked even ENEMIES don't get blasted by our explosives. Yet we get blasted by our own weapons for luls. Fun universe to live in, right?

Edit: Meant the status proc, not the death ragdoll. I fully agree that Blast as status proc was annoying, mind you, but not having enemies fall on their butt every time you nuke them with launchers doesn't feel as fun.

Edited by Voghelm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, mikakor said:

no. no other limitation had to be placed and the AoE weapons would have been just fine. it's almost as if there was other, better, faster and more powerful weapons than AoE ones, making the whole point of limitation completely useless. the game would have been just fine. now we just have to prove it to DE. well, not you, since you straight up want old self damage back xD

Bramma used with self-damage circumvention proves problematic

Remove self-damage outright.

Bramma equally powerful (or more, with freedom of frame buff), more accessible (and therefore indirectly obligatory), no longer problematic ??

 

Yeah, you're fooling only yourself with this blind belief of yours. All objective evidence past and present suggests that self-damage removal was a mistake and would have negative consequences one way or the other.

Edited by TheLexiConArtist
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

After a bit of use with it, I definitely can say that it removes a large amount of risk associated with AOE weapons and this probably will really resonate well with a lot of members in the community.

However, On a personal note; I really do not like the removal of Self-damage cause AOE weapons loose something with that. Not a particular advantage though, in fact, they loose that risk that made them exciting for me to pick up in the first place. I usually use big AOE weapons in every slot (Including melee if you count Exodia Contagion) and have grown a vast instinctual trigger discipline for when it comes to using AOE weapons and the change of Self-Damage to stagger makes coupled with the change that makes it do the most damage at the center makes it feel like you are better off jumping onto an enemy's head and essentially dunking on them with a grenade. I even caught myself still giving myself a lot of space with AOE weapons out of pure discipline and with the aiming thing... well, as said before, I am used to using AOE weapons and so I can be quite pin-point accurate with my shots. Take what I have said with a grain of salt though mainly because I am someone who likes a good bit of risk with things and the rewarding feeling of not blowing yourself up made AOE weapons really fun. It is the same reason I love to play Darksouls and other high risk/difficulty games is that zesty rewarding feeling of not dying. To me the change from Self-damage to Stagger makes AOE weapons feel quite bland. The shield gate on it's own would of sated many players' complaints about self-damage in my eyes, but I do see that a lot of the community will like this. As for me... well... I have auto weapons to rank up now cause with that Status proc change, whew boy, my machine guns are epic.

 

Aside from my own personal dislike of the changes, the only other problems I did find is that you don't get staggered by Exodia Contagion's first explosion (Projectile Impact Blast), but I do not know about pass through explosions (As in the resulting impact explosions from going through enemies)

Likewise, Rip my Chroma builds though, hah.

 

As a post note though... Why did Tombfinger get stagger and not Catchamoon? I didn't even know Tombfinger had AOE, I thought it was a sniper pistol barrel.

 

EDIT: Also, I have noticed that the damage values are a bit off with the Tonkor possibly relating to the fall off changes cause before my headshots on Grineer gunners at level 105 would easily do the full 9k damage, but now it seems like it doesn't go past 1k. The slash procs from it still resemble the correct damage at times, but it seems like the explosions themselves are being quite heavily effected by the blast radius changes.

EDIT 2: I now also realize that Stagger means you get stopped from attacking which really bugs me cause before I wouldn't be stopped by it, I could continue firing with out worries (mainly when playing as my operator and having the bullet magnet bubble throw my attacks back into my face)

Edited by The_Wolf_Studios
New information came to light.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

List of weapons that should not have stagger on them:

Opticor family - there was no self damage on it, why punish players for using niche weapon?

Shedu - there was no self damage on it previously, and its passive wants you to actively be close to enemies when you run out of ammo, if you stagger yourself to oblivion then there is no way to ever use that passive.

Battacor/Chakkhurr/Ferrox/Kuva seer/Scourge/Sonicor/Staticor/Tombfinger/Zakti - there was no self damage on them before, now they stagger, if they are staggering then why Fullmin, Lanka, Komorex (in regular fire mode), Quanta (secondary fire mode) or Arca Plasmor are not staggering? their projectile explosions are bigger or they are power charge weapons so they should stagger too based on logic of those changes.

 

Do not nerf weapons that didn't need nerfs in this way. Please restore all of the previously mentioned weapons to previous state and delete stagger from operator amps too (in case of those i would be more than ok with letting self damage stay on them instead). Regarding amp's just grab X2X or X7X and try doing eidolon run without getting staggered to death while using optimal strategies designed by community.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please fix the Shedu, this is completely useless. 
Spend such a long time farming this weapon, a weapon that needs you to be close to enemies for the AoE, now locks you out of being able to do it. 

Stagger is too strong on most things. 

At least let there be an exilus mod to ignore stagger / recover faster

Or just remove it all together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding Stagger

Staticor: A fully charged shot will give you the FULL knock down regardless of how far from the center you are.

(Knock downs were happening even at around 11-12m away? When it's radius should only be 9.6m. Though that could be due to how waypoint measuring is done)

In comparison, the Lenz would only do a flinch or arm block even when you are 4-5m away, with it's radius being 7.2.

(You can ignore this part if youd like

imo... the noncharged shots shouldnt have a stagger. Or, they shouldn't give a full knockdown like they do now. They arent a massive AOE, or extremely strong. So why do they have the capability to give the full knockdown with a very small(like .5m) window to where youll get the arm block stagger instead. The noncharged are meant to be the spammable option, not something you have to worry about too.)

Concealed Explosives: This mod does very little damage... but it will make you flinch and stop firing if youre within 10m. And within 8m you will get the full knockdown. 

The knockdown it gives doesnt feel justified for the amount of damage it does, especially not if it is doing that knockdown at such a long range.

On 2020-03-02 at 9:42 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Tactics will be deadly - aim true, Tenno.

It would be nice if these could be relooked at to fall in line with this saying... at the moment, even when aiming well, youll experience the stagger because the range/tier of the stagger is huge compared to the amount of damage youre getting. They just dont seem like they have the right balance.

BUG:

Stagger Recovery: Recovery only seems to work about 40-50% of the time? It happens at random, but the recovery just wont activate, letting the full knockdown animation play out without any way to have gotten out of it.

The Stagger Recovery not working also seems to happen more often when you are knocked down mid-air by the explosion.

 

Mechanic:

Since we are on the topic of launchers and projectiles. For explosives like these, can we please Remove collision on Allies?

More than half of the Deaths from self damage were due to Pets, Nekros thralls, Operatives, other players, etc., that got in the way of our shots. So if it could be considered to remove collision from them, it would be nice... Since it would lead to staggers being even more reliant on the player, and not the rng of an AI or squadmate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...