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[DE]Bear

Warframe Revised: >100% Status Chance / Shotgun Megathread

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I will throw another hat in the ring for impact knockdown being dumb (we told you this during those old IPS suggested changes back before fortuna).
I don't know how much you guys pay attention to the high-end riven market, but -impact damage is a highly desirable stat just because the impact status just got in the way. Now it's 10x in the way, even without the 4x weight given to the IPS profile.


Viral is way too strong, which doesn't bother me a ton because other elements are still viable.

Corrosive nerfs make the heat armor reduction way too strong by comparison. Maybe heat should reduce armor still, but 50% is probably too much with things as they are.

Gas changes have entirely killed that damage type. I always enjoyed it as a atypical mod setup that wasn't just the same as anything else... faction damage mods having a home was at least a nice change of pace. I won't act like changes can't be warranted given how it's the only DOT that scales like that, but I also think it's fine as having the identity as the thing to build for to get a good-scaling DOT.

Personally, I think it's fine to have your toxin mod be the linchpin of your build.
Building for gas comes at the cost of not being able to have viral, corrosive, or stand-alone toxin (which mattered more before, it's not as interesting now besides the shield bypass).

I think there's probably something to be said for having each of those be viable roles on their own.  Right now, there's no reason to not just rock heat/viral because it gives you the best mix of damage/armor control.

Gas should be best in AOE damage, viral should be best in single target damage, corrosive should be best at armor management.
Heat serves a better role as being halfway good at DOT and armor, elec can also be half good at AOE and DOT. Find similar fits for other elements, perhaps? For instance, blast could get you AOE plus some armor damage.

Either way, still nice to see a shake-up even if one of my favorites is dead at the moment.

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Unsure if this is intentional with the change to corrosive but it seemes that shattering impact is also unable to strip armour passed 80%. Might be a bug or if not then it should be mentioned.

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I think considering that compared to viral, magnetic damage has a much smaller use case, it would be a welcome addition if magnetic procs had the added functionality of disabling shield-gating for the affected enemy (if the shield is depleted while a magnetic status effect is burdening the target, the damage spillover becomes 100%, as if the shot had hit a weak point ). The change itself only increases your damage by a maximum of one trigger pull, but helps to better sell the fact to newer players that magnetic damage and procs, while ineffective at dispatching targets without shields, make up for it with exceptional efficacy against those who do. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, (PS4)mrBloodshotAtWar said:

it was a buff to non status based shotguns but a major nerf to status based low crit shottys like the phantasma and strun wraith 

Not really, I just tried Strun-W in another kuva flood with a viral/radiation build. I have a riven but it is only punch through and reload with a little bit of cold, nothing with major impact, just adding quality of life. CC is 34%, SC is 33%/pellet, total damage 10K with 22 multishot. Two headshots are more than enough for regular grineer, sometimes one is enough. Body shots don't fare as well (up to 4 may be needed), multiple statuses applied consistently. There were no Noxes, only eximus units, so it is hard to compare. I would say about 5-6 shots were sufficient for level 110 when shooting from inside the aura. IMHO, similar performance as it were against these moderately leveled enemies. It is possible to make a more accurate estimate in similacrum but it is kind of glitchy for me at the moment. Again, I don't see how it is nerfed, I'd say roughly about same as before, maybe even slightly better in actual mission. Feels about the same. Keep in mind that there is new armor scaling at play as well.

Edited by akots

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, xNefas said:

Unsure if this is intentional with the change to corrosive but it seemes that shattering impact is also unable to strip armour passed 80%. Might be a bug or if not then it should be mentioned.

We just had a tridolon and Sarpa with Shattering impact does completely strip armor. Seems like working exactly as before.

Edited by akots

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13 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

The problem with punch-through as a proc is that you'd need either a completely different and separate status effect for melee puncture, or melee puncture effectively gets no status effect. There's also the can of worms of what gunblade puncture procs would do.

You're right, I haven't thought about melee, though they have the follow through stat, which reduces damage for following hits in a single swing, so I guess it could just auto set it to 1 (full damage) or even above 1, for the remainder of the swing if it procces puncture status at any point. But a new effect would probably be better.

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Posted (edited)

I did some testing in the similacrum, Gas AOE damage is less than half of Electrical. Electrical comes with the added bonus of single target crowd control. Something seems off about this. In regards to Gas AOE dealing Gas damage instead of Toxin damage, I am okay with this. It just makes sense and makes it more consistent. Here is a video of my test.

 

 

Edited by Flying_Scorpion
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Buff gas. Its too weak, even against corpus.

Magnetic needs to attract and clump armored enemies together at 10 procs. It becomes useful for melee builds and helps in build diversity.

Buff corrosive to 86% strip.

Impact on multiprocs needs to send the enemy in a stun mode, such that they are prone to finishers.

Also, performance seems to be hitching at times. Not use whats causing it.

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Posted (edited)

Ironically, after testing multiple different weapons from different categories with different stats and builds, I've come to the conclusion that due to the armour changes and the changes to status and their(horrible) new stacking(does not help) effects, you(DE) managed to just make critical chance builds and weapons even better and status builds even worse.

Edited by --RV--Cola
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Not sure why you all removed the total status chance of all pellets. How do I know if my shotguns doing 100% status now with all pellets?

Please revise the capability of the one who removed this stats. lol

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After testing with a bunch of weapons, and all the status effects for a few hours, I only have a few things to say, which I will divide into 2 categories:

Overview:

The good:

  1. Slash, Toxin and Heat were not changed, so they remain as useful as before. Slash now bypasses armor, and Toxin bypasses shield, with Heat having a very damaging DoT.
  2. Electric and Gas are now more useful than before. Electricity now has a DoT in an area around it and GAS now deals GAS damage instead of TOXIN damage. Electric also shocks on status. Gas should probably have something else on proc, similar to the Electric Shock, to set it appart.
  3. Cold is pretty good. The maximum effect at 10 stacks feels stronger than before and also slows down Shield regeneration (if it didn't before). Increasing the slow to 30-75% would be the only change I would suggest.
  4. Viral  and Magnetic are very good. The only change I would add to Viral is for it to reduce healing (either 100% on the first status, or by 30-75% with the stack) for it to be a little more viable against Infested.

The Bad:

  1. Radiation is "better than before", since it now amplifies the damage the confused unit deals to their allies, but it's not a change where it matters. If it isn't broken, don't fix it, I guess.
  2. Puncture is similar to Cold, but worse than Radiation: The effect is weaker at first and ends up stronger at last, but the effect itself isn't anything crazy. But what if it IS broken?
  3. Blast is a joke: No longer knocksdown on status, but an Impact status on top of 10 Blast status WILL knockdown (doesn't happen with less than 10 apparently). No longer affects an area, and slightly reduces accuracy. I stood in the Simulacrum for a whole 10 minutes trying to quantify just how effective 10 stacks of Blast were, and my findings are: "Not nearly enough to justify it" still. The only change I can think of including is for it to give the weapon an AoE like before, that can be affected by Firestorm and Fulmination since they are now available for all guns.
  4. Impact is the weirdest of all. It has knockdown on 5 stacks, and you CAN get past 5 stacks, but it doesn't do ANYTHING past 5 stacks apparently. You can't even interrupt the stand-up animation with more status procs. Changes: Make it so that Impact procs on a Knocked Down enemy interrupt the stand-up animation, and it NEEDS an effect that stacks on top of just "Stagger" and "Knockdown". I can't think of WHAT that thing should be, but I'm also not getting paid to figure it out.

The Ugly:

  • Corrosive... Let's begin by taking the cat out of the bag: No longer reducing armor by a flat % on each status, having a maximum cap AND having a time limit all hurt it badly, but it was a required change in my opinion. I have a very strong proposal for fixing Corrosive at the end that I would love feedback on.

Final Thoughts:

In short, my takes on the status can be divided in 4:

  1. Refreshingly Improved: Cold, Viral and Magnetic.
  2. Finally Fixed: Electric, Gas, Slash and Toxin.
  3. Bland or Lacking: Puncture, Radiation, Corrosive and Heat.
  4. Still Worthless: Blast and Impact.

Corrosive Fix:

Change the armor reduction to 30-75% and duration to 6 seconds (for consistency), and add a DoT that deals 10% + 2.5% per stack (32.5% max) of the enemy total armor (by level instead of Current) to the enemy.

An example using the wiki (which probably has the wrong formula but is still useful as an example😞

A level 100 Heavy Gunner has 7.332 (96%) armor and 38.388 health. If affected by one proc of Corrosive, it would deal 733 damage every second but be reduced by the enemy armor. Since it was reduced by corrosive by 30% (to 5132) it now has a 94% damage reduction, and the DoT final damage is 44 per second.

Maximum armor reduction (75%) for this enemy is down to 1833 (89% reduction) so at this point the DoT does 32.5% of the target's armor as damage (2383) reduced by the enemy armor down to 334 damage per second. This way, the total DoT of Corrosive isn't useless and it amplifies the damage from your shots justl ike it does now.

Let me know what y'all think of this stuff but I probably won't read it unless I get tagged.

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Posted (edited)

heat strips 50% armor in a single proc and deals damage over time

corrosive strips 80% armor in 10 procs

It takes 5x corrosive stacks to reach 50% armor strip.

I think heat is more powerful than corrosive at the moment. Viral + heat might become the new meta against armored units. For corrosive to be on par with heat, I think it needs to start off with 53% armor strip and then increase by an additional 3% after that. At 10x corrosive procs, you'll still cap out at 80% armor strip, but at least you'll be on par with heat armor strip upon the first corrosive proc. It just makes sense. With the new armor scaling, there's no reason to choose a corrosive proc over a heat proc unless you're dealing with an enemy with an insane amount of armor where the additional 30% armor strip becomes better than heat's damage over time.

 

One more thing. I don't think enough people here are praising you guys for the good things in these changes. So here's the good:

Puncture is good and strategically useful against big threat.

Slash is good and is balanced since it does not bypass shields.

Heat is very strong (honestly it might be a bit over powered and deserving of a nerf)

Cold is fun with 70% slow. Also strategically useful.

Electric is good and balanced now.

Toxic also seems good and balanced now.

Radiation seems fine to me, honestly I can't say I have much of an opinion on it because I don't use it much for it's status effect, but I'm sure many people will enjoy playing with it.

Magnetic is good and strong now. It has a narrow application but it's very powerful in it's role.

Viral is very strong now (honestly might be a bit over powered and deserving of a nerf because it does the same thing as magnetic in terms of damage multiplication but it's application is very wide instead of very narrow).

Blast seems very interesting. I haven't tested it out yet, I'll reserve my opinion on this but I like the direction you guys are going with this.

Gas ... something's wrong. It should be doing more damage, or have a larger area of effect.

 

Overall though, thank you DE for putting in the effort to address these long standing issues in the game. Your work is greatly appreciated, this is a good way to start of 2020. Also if a moderator sees this post, I hope you're slamming down the hammer on the toxic people in this thread who are insulting DE's competence. (for example "Please revise the capability of the one who removed this stats. lol" is insulting)

Edited by Flying_Scorpion
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Posted (edited)

Viral status have lost its special meaning imo, it was about weakening enemies, not about direct damage. What differs it from slash or toxin now? Maybe reworking it as "Target getting increased (multiplied) damage from all other sources for viral status duration" (with multiplier stacks) or "Viral status proc refresh duration and increase damage form all other statuses on target" will fits better to the task of keeping diversity of gameplay while achieving a new balance point?

This will also solve a problem with Saryn.

Edited by antiquadr
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Impact : "Repeat single-target Impact Status Effects will escalate the efficacy of the Impact Status (removed previous change of adding Ragdoll as maximum Stagger consequence)."

Add that the attaque that proc impact inflict immediately 80% of its damage as additional impact damage.

(as comparison, slash is 245% of the damage as true damage in 6 seconds)

 

Puncture : "The first Puncture Status Effect has an enemy deal 30% less Damage. Subsequent Puncture Status add +5% weakening, leading to up to 75% (capped). Each Puncture Status has a duration of 6 Seconds."

Make that it also increase taken damage :

"The first Puncture Status Effect has an enemy deal 30% less Damage and take 30% more damage. Subsequent Puncture Status add +5%, leading to up to 75% (capped) less damage deal and more damage taken. Each Puncture Status has a duration of 6 Seconds."

(even with full stack, it would increase less the damage than the first stack of viral. but the 30-75% would also work on shield.) 

 

Blast : "Grants the Blast Status Effect a single target. Blast Status reduces enemy accuracy by 30% base. Subsequent Blast Status Effects add +5% inaccuracy for  for 75% total at 10 stacks. Each Blast Status has a 6 second Duration."

Make that the attack that proc Blast deal 20% of its damage to all other target in 7 meter radius, and also apply the accuracy reduction to them. 

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If you really want status builds to be a more popular option, instead of just making status effects themselves more powerful, maybe you should stop making everything immune to them. Status effects are already much more situational than crits, since using the wrong element against a faction usually means your procs are worthless. So they don't also need the added downside of having certain enemies being completely immune to all of them. Especially because its always the biggest, toughest enemies that are immune. So, the only targets that would actually live long enough for the status effects to make a difference are also the only ones that you can't use them on.

Making a bunch of enemies completely immune to status effects means that you have made several situations where players literally cannot use an entire game mechanic at all, yet you seem surprised that that particular mechanic is unpopular. It would be fine if certain enemies were immune or resistant to specific effects, but nothing should be completely immune to every single one. Otherwise the universal usefulness of crits will always be king.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb kyori:

Not sure why you all removed the total status chance of all pellets. How do I know if my shotguns doing 100% status now with all pellets?

Please revise the capability of the one who removed this stats. lol

read more carefully, the status chance is shown as "per pellet/projectile".  so once it reaches 100%, every pellet/projectile will procc 100%.

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Posted (edited)
vor einer Stunde schrieb Teljaxx:

If you really want status builds to be a more popular option, instead of just making status effects themselves more powerful, maybe you should stop making everything immune to them. Status effects are already much more situational than crits, since using the wrong element against a faction usually means your procs are worthless. So they don't also need the added downside of having certain enemies being completely immune to all of them. Especially because its always the biggest, toughest enemies that are immune. So, the only targets that would actually live long enough for the status effects to make a difference are also the only ones that you can't use them on.

Making a bunch of enemies completely immune to status effects means that you have made several situations where players literally cannot use an entire game mechanic at all, yet you seem surprised that that particular mechanic is unpopular. It would be fine if certain enemies were immune or resistant to specific effects, but nothing should be completely immune to every single one. Otherwise the universal usefulness of crits will always be king.

Am 2.3.2020 um 19:00 schrieb [DE]Bear:

Greater than 100% Status having meaning:

 


Why: Critical has long been king - and while we are leaving Critical as is, our goal is to bring Status into the Arsenals in a new light for all Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapons.Our long-term goal with this change is to build upon this series of changes to eventually allow Status to impact bigger threats like Liches and Eidolons.

 

Edited by imbressive

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Impact resulting in a knockdown is really annoying and a penalty in most cases, because it makes your subsequent shots miss.

A longer stagger/stun is fine, but not significantly moving enemies.

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On 2020-03-02 at 7:00 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Shotguns have a unique Role here based on a very patch-work history with how they interact with Status Chance. A Shotgun that shoots 99% Status Chance would give you 35% (roughly) status per pellet. 100% Status Gives you 100% Status per pellet. This huge jump in performance happens with just a 1% gain - why? Well, to answer that we have to look at our choice to make what the UI conveys reality. It would feel broken to shoot a Shotgun with 100% Status and not see a perfect spread of Effects. In reality, to make Status consistent we have to treat Shotguns as a special case.
 

Shotguns as a special case means we have buffed the Status Chance of all Shotguns by x3 or greater. The UI now behaves to show the reality that you are determining Status Chance per pellet. 

I need some help understanding this, i'm not that strong in stats.

I'll take the Tigris Prime as an example.

I was under the impression that the old status chance was meant as an indicator of the % of at least one status to proc. So, at 30%,an 8 pellet shot would, overall, have a 30% chance of proccing at least one status, and around 70% of seeing none. It would have been theoretically possible to see 8 procs, but the chance was really pretty much non-existing.

At 100% status you would apply status 100% of the time. It ended up applying it to every pellet.

Now, 30*3=90. that 90/8 =11.25. Which is pretty close to the 11.3 we have on the TP. 8 pellets, 90 is the status chance tripled, so it seems it is the way the new pellet chance has been calculated.

Why, however? It doesn't make the "status chance of all shotguns x3 or greater" since the "old" status chance was the chance of hitting at least one status, at least that's the impression i'm under: at 11.3 we have around a 38.3% of not causing any status, not a 90%. That would require an around 25% status chance per pellet.

It is not even a 0.7^3=0.343 chance of not causing a status: a 12.5% per pellet.

It is not even the old per pellet chancex3: around 4.36%*3= around 13%.

Why use this % instead of others? Am i wrong in some assumption?

 

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On 2020-03-02 at 7:00 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Impact

Repeat single-target Impact Status Effects will escalate the efficacy of the Impact Status (removed previous change of adding Ragdoll as maximum Stagger consequence).

any weapon with higher impact than slash and puncture has become useless at higher difficulties as a few shots into an enemy will make them fall over 

 

Switch the impact and blast proc asap please people are posting all over for this as knocking someone on their behind should be an option not a forced outcome of shooting them

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, TRPBWhite said:

Why use this % instead of others? Am i wrong in some assumption?

The number they actually started with (and tripled for the new one) was the unmodded status chance of the individual pellet. At low status chances, and basically the base status chance of every shotgun, the chance approaches the total status chance divided by the number of pellets and those are equivalent things, but at higher numbers they diverge. 

2 hours ago, kyori said:

Not sure why you all removed the total status chance of all pellets. How do I know if my shotguns doing 100% status now with all pellets?

Please revise the capability of the one who removed this stats. lol

It doesn't work this way at all now. Period. You get to 100% status if the individual per-pellet chance is 100%, just as with all other weapons. There's no curve. Most shotguns cannot reach 100% status chance. The old system required 100% status chance because anything less fell off to less than 40% per pellet. 

Edited by CopperBezel

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

The number they actually started with (and tripled for the new one) was the unmodded status chance of the individual pellet. At low status chances, and basically the base status chance of every shotgun, the chance approaches the total status chance divided by the number of pellets and those are equivalent things, but at higher numbers they diverge. 

As i wrote in the post, i used the Tigris Prime for the numbers, and i used base unmodded status chances. TP had around 4.36% per pellet unmodded. Triple that and it is around 13%, not 11.3%.

If we take the chance of each pellet not causing a proc and ^3, it comes at 12.5%.

It doesn't help me if you don't provide numbers, since again i'm not that good at stats. What "unmodded base status chance" would have they used for the Tigris Prime? 3.75%? 30/8 is not the status chance per pellet. Edit: from what i understand about the previous numbers, at least. I could be wrong. But i would like an explanation on "why".

Edited by TRPBWhite

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40 minutes ago, imbressive said:

 

Yeah, I know, I read that. Doesn't change the fact that no matter what they do to status effects right now, crit will always be the more popular choice until they actually get around to making less stuff completely immune to it. And with DE's history, I don't expect them to finish this update any time soon. So, most likely, we are still going to be dealing with status immune enemies for quite a while yet, rendering all these current changes moot.

I spent most of today using status focused weapons and builds to try out these new changes. And the main thing I realized is just how frustrating it is trying to use full status builds for anything. Status weapons can kill most enemies no problem, but as soon as one of the many, many immune enemies shows up, you may as well be trying to kill a tank with a butter knife. So even if you mostly use status weapons, you still better bring something crit focused for when you inevitably run into something immune to procs.

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I think it should've been fairly obvious that these changes would not increase the value of status over critical as intended. Viral still synergizes with Slash, and Slash still synergizes with Critical.

It should also be fairly obvious that Viral now benefits from fire rate and multishot more than it does from status chance, because the former increase damage and do not have a soft cap on their effectiveness from maxing out stacks.

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Is it just me or did Kohm and Kuva Kohm get an insane buff they didn't need and all the other shotguns a nerf?
 

Kuva Kohm now has a base 90% status on each pellet. Riven + status mods and you can hit 300% status/pellet.

 

On the other hand all other shotguns lost their 100% proc rate down to about ~30% status/pellet maxed out. 

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