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[DE]Bear

Warframe Revised: >100% Status Chance / Shotgun Megathread

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So, I'm not sure if this is a bug or not, but it feels like one because of the Phantasma -

All beam weapons with innate mutli-shot, such as the convectrix, quanta vandal, and Phantasma only generate status procs as if they had a single beam. This means the Phantasma was just straight up reduced to 60% of it's original status chance, which is why it feels like a bug.

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Passive/Environmental-hazard Status Proc times and effects on players seem to have been increased significantly, and in some cases far too punitive for what they are.

A Magnetic proc (Grineer door barrier) seemingly lasts at least twice as long as before, which once again effectively guarantees that it will remove all your energy for merely putting a toe over the threshold, while also being a nuisance with its visual distortion for such an extended period. Please remember that Magnetic is still vastly more punishing to players than it is to enemies. Maybe it's time to remove that added facet now that shields are better so having them made vulnerable is more pertinent?

Electric procs are posing obscene extra threat compared to pre-Mainline. Whether it's a Shock Eximus' aura, an electrical hazard in the environment (Railjack is getting a lot more of them too) or even the displacement slam from a Powerfist, all of them are dealing tons of unexpected damage. Powerfist slams are not meant to be threats, and incidental hazard procs probably shouldn't be invalidating shield gates by burning right through and then ticking chunks out of health after the invulnerability grace period. The only comparable damage threat from the environment is getting several Heat procs from broken pipes in the Gas City.

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18 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

Why not have it do bonus damage to shields. that way rad/viral is a paired combo. As is you're better going with heat viral because heat does armro strip and CC based on panic state.

Ye that could be something , in the other hand u can go gas magnetic or magnetic toxin against shields . Even viral electric is really good now .

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Problem: Heat and corrosive are unbalanced vs armor.

Solution: Make heat armor reduction lower than or similar to minimum corrosive reduction. e.g. Heat strips armor 25% instead of 50%

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- Problem: Toxin and magnetic are unbalanced vs shields.

- Solution: Initial toxin damage goes through shields but the status effect damage does not. i.e. sort of the reverse of slash

Additional option:

- Make gas proc and toxin proc unique.

v1) Allow gas proc to go through shields.

v2) Make toxin proc deal extra damage to armor.

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Posted (edited)

I've compiled more feedback into this. Some of it has been said already but I'll just put it all together here.

1. Physical damage types have lost their 4x multiplier on their status chance. My suggestion is simple, make IPS mods work the same way elemental mods do. Then you wouldn't have this weird inconsistency where IPS mods have their own special formula that's different from elemental mods. Have an IPS mod take the sum total of all of the base damage on the weapon, and then add their respective IPS element as a percentage of that sum total - just like elemental mods do. In order to maintain balance, go back to the IPS mods that increase IPS damage by 120% and reduce them to 90% to be in line with elemental mods. This would make things more consistent across the board, and allow players more control over the physical damage types that they apply (which isn't a bad thing in my opinion).

2. Rework each shotgun status chance on a case by case basis. Instead of multiplying its status chance by 3 and then dividing it by the # of pellets, simply multiply it's status chance by the # of pellets and then divide by the # of pellets; this would make each shotgun have roughly the same status chance after the patch as they did before the patch. It just makes more sense this way.

3. Viral is slightly OP. I suggest tuning down Viral from a 325% damage bonus to a maximum of 250% or 260% bonus.

4. Currently corrosive armor strip is 26% on the first proc, and an additional 6% on each proc after that, for a total of up to 80% armor strip. Tweak armor to 53% armor strip on the first proc, and then an additional 3% for each proc after that. The total would be the same (80%), but the first proc would be equally as effective as a heat proc, and it would allow corrosive to be equally effective as heat - in terms of armor stripping for slower firing weapons. Currently, corrosive is really only good if you have a fast-firing weapon.

5. Gas AOE DOT is currently less than half of Electric. Gas AOE DOT needs to be increased to be at least on par with Electric. I think Gas AOE DOT should be higher than Electric, because the only thing Gas does is an AOE DOT, while Electric does an AOE DOT with the added benefit of a single target CC stun.

 

Edited by Flying_Scorpion

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Impact proc needs to change.  Enemies falling down unexpectedly = they dodge your next shots.
Impact proc should just extend CC.  Knockdown is not good.

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If nobody haven't yet, please tell Tenno Councillor LL his tip about Slash status effect bypassing Shields is outdated.

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Posted (edited)

so gas is just too weak right now I think you can just buff up the numbers and that will be good impact is a liability maybe y'all can think of enough function impact can do if you stack it and viral is really overpowered maybe you can tone it down a little other than that thanks for all your hard work😊

Edited by (PS4)t3benji
I do play on PS4 but I pay really close attention to PC.

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Posted (edited)

@[DE]Bear

After playing with these for a bit now, I like many of the changes, and I like the overall direction these changes seem to head in. And, it seems like there's a pattern emerging where an element is either good because of it has a powerful status effect, but only okay bonus damages, or vice versa. Viral is really the only big offender here, as it gets big bonuses vs Cloned Flesh and Flesh, AND has what is probably the best Status Effect.

With that in mind, the following damage types maybe need to have their bonuses/penalties revised, as their status effect itself is pretty mediocre: Impact, Puncture, Blast, Gas.

  • With regards to Impact and Puncture, as these are usually gotten for free (you aren't spending mods on them), they may be fine as they are. But, Impact rocks a -25% damage penalty vs both Cloned Flesh and Flesh, which is pretty ubiquitous. And Puncture is penalized vs Shields. I could see them simply losing their penalties--but then again, they are often acquired "for free", so maybe not.
  • Blast's Status Effect is only useful vs enemies that are going to live a long time, which usually means bosses, which are usually immune. Revisiting its damage penalties/bonuses would, in my mind, be the best way to buff this damage type. One out-there thought I had was to make it pretty much neutral across the board, but it's always applied in an AoE (like 4 or 5 meters), giving single target weapons an avenue for getting AoE damage.
  • Gas's big issue is that the Status Effect no longer applies Toxic status effect, but just does Gas damage. As Gas damage is a worse damage type, AND the toxic effect bypasses shields, this is a significant nerf to the status effect. Again, in my mind, the easiest way to rectify this is to adjust the penalties/bonuses on the damage type. If it was neutral across the board (maybe some small bonuses here or there?), it would be much better. Or even an alternative mechanic for application, like the ability to bypass Shields and/or Armor?

I wanted to also just quickly mention Magnetic and Corrosive. I think these two elements are in an interesting spot, as their Status Effect proc is on the weaker side (a new development for Corrosive born from the Armor changes plus the Status Effect changes), but they come with big inherent bonus damages, while having only a single penalty that's not common. So, in my mind, they really exemplify the idea of "weaker Status Effect, stronger damage bonuses".

Edited by waterboytkd

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3 hours ago, rstripn said:

Problem: Heat and corrosive are unbalanced vs armor.

Solution: Make heat armor reduction lower than or similar to minimum corrosive reduction. e.g. Heat strips armor 25% instead of 50%

how about instead of nerfing what few good elements we have left, we buff the other ones?

Also heats armor strip is not instant, it takes a couple of seconds after application.

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Hi DE,

 

I believe it is notorius a main point of controversy. Shotguns that achieve 100% chance like strun wraith, tigris, mara detron etc. can no longer achieve 100% chance per pellet. The problem is, the equation used works linearly and variance and therefore probabilities aren't, i.e. multiply the status chance by 3 and divide the number of pellets sounds like a buff but because the introduces a tons of variance to weapons with consistent behavior and number of pellets > 3 it is actually a huge nerf for any shotgun with more than 3 pellets.

Lets take 3 examples and draw a conclusion after them.

1st example, strun wraith - originally with 40% status chance. If the build uses all 4 60/60 status mods it achieved 136% status chance and truncated at 100%. In this situation every pellet procs. If you remove the 100% limit, one should expect every pellet to proc 1 status and have 36% chance of a second proc, producing an average of 13 to 14 status per shot, without any multishot mod in the build. This sort of things were  the expectations of the community after all DE said it would be a buff.

However, the equation produces the following result. (40%x3)/(10 pellets) = 12% chance of 1 proc per pellet, with all 60/60 mods one gets a status chance bellow 40% per pellet producing an average of 4 to 5 procs per pellet. The number of procs is less than half of the previous one therefore a nerf of at least of 50%.

On the other hand, Kohm (our 2nd example). The number of pellets are not stated in the wiki page, therefore we don't know the denominator used in the equation.  However, something really wrong occurred here. Warframe wiki stated that status chance per pellet is ~2.93 for kuva kohm. How that can become something above 200%? We can conclude denominator used was clearly bellow 3 (2 or 1) and the numerator used was the weapon full 30% status chance.  Although it is a buff, it is also a huge example of colateral effect born on some spreadheet error. I'm sure there are many who loved it, but it still a fact that such thing shouldn't have happened. What should have happened? answer: IMHO- Something that is not a spreadsheet error.

Last example Exergis - It also achieved 100% status chance. But because it has exactly 3 pellets, therefore matching the choosen multiplier, it preserved the status chance per pellet and it is an unique case where a status shotgun was preserved.

 

Bring balance to a game is a hard task. What DE tried, tried with good heart and good intent, they rushed math reasoning and mistakens happened. However, they can be fixed. I believe you guys have to sit down closing any programming IDE for 30 minutes. Use a sheet of paper and spreadsheet, pick the previous shotgun data one can exam each shotgun. Identify shotguns that achieve exactly 100% status chance if the cap was removed, and which ones would surpass 100% while using 60/60mods. Those are the candidates to have above 100% status chance per pellet. Therefore any definition that brings them bellow 100% status per pellet is a nerf. Study and define each status chance knowing what probabilities per pellets the status mods would produce, because they are the ones to be reproduced or buffed (i wrote buffed because DE so promised).

The other shotguns should also benefit from such procedure.

 

Thank you for your hardwork, time and love you guys put into this game

 

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Please reconsider Status Chances for Innate Multishot Weapons. Giving Weapons like Tigris Prime atleast 20% Status chance per Pellet is a lot more reasonable.

Most Secondary Shotguns dont even have 5% per Pellet, because their innate Multishot is very high.

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As a shotgun enthusiast, where the Strun Wraith is a particular favorite, this change really disappoints me. I understand shotguns being 100% or bust isn’t ideal either though. 

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On 2020-03-05 at 10:21 AM, SerenityEuphoria said:

I'm confused on the gas changes. So it no longer stacks Toxin, but makes the target release some AoE gas damage? It just makes enemies stinky? I haven't been able to test it yet, but It seems like Gas was going to be really nice to use with the Toxin changes, but now it seems you need to group enemies better, and longer, in order to get even a little value out of it. I hope this isn't the case.

Personally I like that gas is now its own status instead of just toxin+, which is also an indirect buff to Condition Overload. The AoE aspect is nothing but a boon compared to all the other single-target DoT statuses, especially if you can inflict it on multiple targets in a crowd so that the cloud on each one touches all the others, essentially multiplying the output. The real problem is the damage compared to toxin, and that toxin now bypasses shields. I don't really know what the numbers are on any of these. But since toxin bypasses shields, I feel like gas needs to do more damage per tick since it doesn't have the same benefit. Not too much more though, since you have to account for stacking clouds. I really wish I could test this myself - grab Nidus and pull of bunch of units together, proc gas on all of them with something like the Ignis, and compare the damage output of the DoTs with varying numbers of units.

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The changes to the elements, status stacking and armor were good, and are going a good way into making all damage types relevant.

But was it really necessary to kill Tigris Prime status proc rate? I mean, the weapon is still powerful, but now it barely has status chance, even when you consider the higher base multishot in comparison to most shotguns and Tigris variants.

(repeating some really old stuff that needs repeating)
A lot of the misunderstanding on proc chances came from lack of understanding the math. Before, multishot would be taken into account on the per-pellet chance. If the weapon had 100% MS and 60% SC, the status chance would be read as 84%, because the game accounted the "chance to proc at least once". So, in this case, the chance of not proc-ing on both shots is 40%, the chance of proc-ing none is 40%*40% = 16%, and therefore, the chance of proc-ing "at least once" is 100%-16% = 84%. And this caused all the misunderstanding of status chances so far: lack of understanding of basic statistic and badly explained stats on the UI. If MS wasn't taken into account on the status chance, no misunderstanding of the sort would have happened, because a range on the status chance indicating "from all procs to one single proc" would be excess information for the average player and would lead to more confusion.

Now, if we see the Kuva Khom, that has a base 90% status chance, which can get to 306% status chance with all dual stat elemental mods (3 guaranteed procs per pellet), but which shoots "a single pellet", things start to get a little interesting.

While the Kuva Khom is nowhere near the power of the Tigris Prime, the higher fire rate + higher status chance + "fake multishot" mechanic (every shot makes it shoot more shots, until it is vomiting your cartridge at full speed), turns it into the new proc rate monster. You barely hold the trigger, and most procs are already capped. Kuva Khom became fun as heck, and really powerful despite still having a really poor ammo efficiency (took a whole cartridge for that, out of the total 6 it can carry). The relentless procs also makes it great for controlling enemies, since you can blindfire into a group, and distribute procs all over the place, or focus on one enemy and not let them do anything at all (until the mag empties, at least).

Tigris was a powerful status mechanics teacher to new players specifically because of its status chance + high base damage. I really wish it would get back to that post, even if I've been not using for more than a year myself (Exergis <3). I still believe that just reducing the base multishot (while keeping same overall damage), and increasing the status chance, would make it a fun shotgun again. When balancing status chance, please keep in mind proc rate, and not just proc chance.

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In a very weird way, nerfing corrosive status may actually end up increasing damage; if you strip all of a target's armor, then the armor damage modifiers no longer apply. Now that you can't accidentally un-armor someone completely using corrosive, you never risk losing your damage buff.

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So after playing a bit, here's my feedback on some of the other status effects, to add to the ones I reviewed in my previous post.

Blast: Just as bad, if not worse, as Puncture now. It losing its aoe is a mistake, plus the debuff itself is pretty useless. Imo bring back the aoe mechanic, but instead of it being an aoe knockdown, make it an aoe stun (enemies will instantly go in a stunned pose and stand like this for the duration of the stun, ie. not stagger). To make it compatible with status stacking, either keep the new debuff and have it apply to all enemies in the blast radius, or give the aoe some instant spike damage (not a dot) that scales from the weapon's Blast damage amount, that can continuously trigger as the status keeps proccing.

Electricity: Right now, if I understand right, it's basically Gas with a stun. Imo a good mechanic fitting electricity would be dealing bonus spike damage to the target, that scales from the weapon's Electricity damage amount, and stunning it, then chaining to the closest enemy in a certain radius (maybe bigger than other aoe status effects) once and doing the same or reduced amount of damage with or without the stun component. Basically it would be kind of a weaker Blast, but the difference would be that Blast stuns groups of enemies with a small amount of damage or a debuff, while Electricity stuns only 1 or 2, but deals more spike damage than Blast. As for status stacking, it already "stacks" by itself, as the damage is instant and every status proc benefits from it.

Gas: Seems kinda meh now, mostly because there are not many enemies that are really weak to it except fodder infested, who die just as fast using any other damage type while tankier infested are all weak to Corrosive. Plus there's the fact that if there's a Toxic Ancient, all surrounding infested automatically become immune to Gas. Imo either bring back Gas applying Toxin status, or make the Gas dot bypass shields, so it's basically an upgraded Toxin again.

Magnetic: Still not worth using as before, mostly because Toxin exists and the fact that the majority of corpus enemies just don't have enough shields. I think it should have some bonus effect on top of the current one, something that doesn't affect only shields. Something like instantly breaking nullifier bubbles and frost eximus bubbles while disabling abilities and auras, jamming robotic enemies (stun?), making enemy hitboxes larger (as in attracting bullets) with the priority to weak spot hitboxes etc.

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Posted (edited)

May I suggest a change on the physical types?

Impact, Puncture and Slash are the main 3 physical types in warframe. Also the Base of most damage as well.
I suggest that each status proc from these physical types support builds that exist in warframe. Status builds, Crit builds and True damage builds(slash)

Impact:
STATUS BUILD SUPPORT PROC
 While under the effect of the impact proc, enemies become more susceptible to elemental status procs. Initial impact procs will boost the enemy to be procced by an elemental status by 10% for 6 seconds. Additional status procs will boost the proc chance up to 30%. While under the effect of the impact proc, all elemental status procs will have 100% higher damage, range and duration. (Bonuses to status chance is additive)
--> While this won't be that effective against already powerful status weapons that can afford high elemental damage, it will open up new build options for weapons that had moderately low potential to steadily add elemental procs to enemies, thus allowing more weapons to branch out into status builds. Not to mention the higher damage, range, duration will tie in well with Blast, Toxin, Fire, Gas, Electricity, while the duration serves well for all elemental procs
I deliberately limited the status effect boost to only elemental procs due to this mixing with slash would be horrendous.

Puncture:
CRIT BUILD SUPPORT PROC
 While under the effect of the puncture proc, enemies become more susceptible to critical hits. Initial puncture proc will boost the enemy to take critical hits by 5%, additional puncture procs will boost this by 2% to a cap of 30%. (Bonuses to crit chances are additive) Bonus of puncture proc will only support up to 100% crit chance and will not add any bonuses beyond yellow crit.
--> This will allow some weaker status weapons to start dipping their toes on cirt/status hybrid builds by investing into puncture, while also allowing the option for some weaker crit weapons to further invest in puncture to boost it to full yellow crits. Yet to put a hardcap on it, it will do nothing to support beyond yellow crit. A weapon with over 100% crit chance will earn no benefits from the puncture proc.

Slash:
TRUE DAMAGE SUPPORT PROC
 Its already doing what it does quite well. Leave it as it is.

 

And with Impact not having knockback anymore, please return that to Blast.
Blast may have not been universally loved, but it was the best at what it was supposed to do.
AoE CC.
And not many status procs were even at that state.

Edited by Shaburanigud

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So basically the status shotguns have been nerfed into oblivion?
I can understand the necessity to nerf some, but surely, some measure would have been preferable.

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7 minutes ago, Morkislair said:

So basically the status shotguns have been nerfed into oblivion?
I can understand the necessity to nerf some, but surely, some measure would have been preferable.

They weren't that good, there was no reason to nerf any of them. DE doesn't play their own game.

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Posted (edited)

I said that before doing some testing.
In restrospect, I should have.
After some adjustments, my Strun Wraith is still melting lvl 165 bombards, my astilla is even more levels of nonsensical joy (and I don't even have riven for these), gonna test the sobek now.
Builds have to be changed (like, heat/viral is now clearly superior to corrosive/slash imho) but I get whatt Steve meant when he said he thought tthis was a buf. Stats displayed may not always be as high, but the effects on ennemies is definitely there. And the +90 status is also definitely usefull for some, also, stackable status makes punch through much more desirable.
Now I have adjusted to it, I like it how it is.
The stats and math makes much more sense.

I was angsty at first, like a change-adverse reaction, but this is really good, actually.

Edited by Morkislair

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Aside from the knee-jerk reaction of not wanting the hilarious and overpowered jank of 100% status shotguns to go away, I feel like most of them are a lot better off than before.

My Tigris build needs to change, but the 100% status builds weren't as different from how they are now as people think they were. Having 100% status didn't mean the same thing as having 100% meaningful proc chance. Every pellet had a chance to be Puncture or Viral, and the old weighting made any of the non-slash weighted shotguns much less useful.

I much prefer how now I don't feel disappointed to see five Viral procs show up.

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