Warframe Revised: >100% Status Chance / Shotgun Megathread

[Drago55577]

12 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Stuff

Soapbox? Everything I said is provably correct. Even your statistics support what I said about status weapons. A meaningless jab at a factually correct post.

The only opinionated portion is how I believe status should have been transferred.

Edit: I forgot to point out a crucial flaw in the data you provided. You didn't cover damage statuses which are not about procs per second, and their performance is strictly a function of status chance and damage per second. The quantity is irrelevant, as opposed to viral where quantity is relevant and damage per second is irrelevant.

Empirically, they are strictly worse because they can no longer compete with a rifle in terms of damage proc performance, even though very few can compete in output of non-damaging procs. This is the big blow, because a pure status weapon is all about damage procs, only crit weapons only care about procs who's performance is strictly a function of volume of fire over time times status chance. 

Your data, while correct, is disingenuous. There is much more to this than what you included.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Drago55577

[CopperBezel]

In the old meta, being able to deliver a bucketload of Corrosive procs fast was a very good thing and 100% status shotguns were very good at that, so I don't think it's true that they were exclusively about DoT procs at that time. After all, without a lot of crit chance, a very high chance of landing a Slash proc would mean less simply because it's not doing as much damage without crit. And getting to 100% status by loading down with 60/60 mods would automatically mean your weapon was getting 62.5% of its procs in IPS, which is never pure Slash (Tigris Prime was 80%) while the rest were split between two combined elements, probably Corrosive and Blast. Which is not to underplay anything, that's half of your damage going straight to slash procs. 

In the system now, all statuses stack but everything that isn't DoT has a cap, and IPS doesn't get the preferential treatment, so it's a very different landscape, and right now what we probably really want out of a status shotgun is Viral and Slash, which means one proc that's all about volume of fire and one that's all about percentage and also difficult to build for. Quick envelope build with the new Shotgun Savvy and Sweeping Serration to enhance the distribution alongside the 60/60s for Viral comes to a rather abysmal 20.6% of damage ending up falling on a slash proc, quite a lot less than a flat 50%. And that's alongside, um, an average of one lonely viral proc in there per 8-pellet shot. 

I do think shotguns can be reduced to a rate of proc opportunities per second and a status chance the same as any burst or automatic rifle, and something that fires as infrequently as a Tigris Prime does not need its status artificially capped in comparison to an automatic that can equally lay out eight bullets in a heartbeat, but also continue to do so another ten or twelve times until the magazine runs out. So ideally, instead of an arbitrary number pulled from existing status chances, that's what shotguns should be being balanced against. 

---

Unrelated, nerfed Viral yet? So hot right now.

[Drago55577]

29 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

In the old meta, being able to deliver a bucketload of Corrosive procs fast was a very good thing and 100% status shotguns were very good at that, so I don't think it's true that they were exclusively about DoT procs at that time. After all, without a lot of crit chance, a very high chance of landing a Slash proc would mean less simply because it's not doing as much damage without crit. And getting to 100% status by loading down with 60/60 mods would automatically mean your weapon was getting 62.5% of its procs in IPS, which is never pure Slash (Tigris Prime was 80%) while the rest were split between two combined elements, probably Corrosive and Blast. Which is not to underplay anything, that's half of your damage going straight to slash procs. 

In the system now, all statuses stack but everything that isn't DoT has a cap, and IPS doesn't get the preferential treatment, so it's a very different landscape, and right now what we probably really want out of a status shotgun is Viral and Slash, which means one proc that's all about volume of fire and one that's all about percentage and also difficult to build for. Quick envelope build with the new Shotgun Savvy and Sweeping Serration to enhance the distribution alongside the 60/60s for Viral comes to a rather abysmal 20.6% of damage ending up falling on a slash proc, quite a lot less than a flat 50%. And that's alongside, um, an average of one lonely viral proc in there per 8-pellet shot. 

I do think shotguns can be reduced to a rate of proc opportunities per second and a status chance the same as any burst or automatic rifle, and something that fires as infrequently as a Tigris Prime does not need its status artificially capped in comparison to an automatic that can equally lay out eight bullets in a heartbeat, but also continue to do so another ten or twelve times until the magazine runs out. So ideally, instead of an arbitrary number pulled from existing status chances, that's what shotguns should be being balanced against. 

---

Unrelated, nerfed Viral yet? So hot right now.

That's true, but damage statuses are still the mainstay of status weapons, as they were previously. The only reason corrosive was so wanted on a status weapon is because we needed a large amount of procs to reduce enemy armour completely. 16 procs was just short of 99% reduction. Now it caps out at 8, which is a boon for the status impaired, meaning they need less of it to get it's full affect. 

While the hypothetical gun, let's say we have a gun that puts out 100 bullets per second with a 100% status chance. It's damage evenly split between viral and heat. 50 heat procs and 50 viral procs per second. 42 of those procs are wasted, reducing our effective procs per second down to 58%. Over the next second, 0 viral procs are useful, while all 50 heat procs are, a further although minor hit to our effective procs over time. This is a big portion of its main damage that is wasted.

Contrast with a crit weapon. Their damage comes from crit, it's their whole thing. Status is used purely as a utility to increase this critical damage (hybrid weapons not included those are a mixed bag, building crit to increase status damage.). This hypothetical 100 bullet per second gun with 10% status chance would very quickly increase its maximum effective status (viral in this case), while very little of its potential damage would be wasted because, despite viral diluting it's damage proc pool, an insignificant portion of damage comes from damage procs, it all comes from crit and onhit.

Something needs to fix this, and I think damage weighting would be good. Or perhaps if you proc viral etc at max stacks, it resets the duration and the proc rerolls to another element so you're not wasting procs.

Edit: Funny thing, these aren't entirely unrealistic numbers. Most weapons could hit at least 40 (citation needed) or so bullets per second. Kohm can reach hilarious amounts. Reducing everyone's fps to single digits with the cyanex is fun.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Drago55577

[rstripn]

The following are the status effects that need balancing and what changes I would make. Unlisted status effects are good as is.

Please note: These are not kneejerk reactions. This is the result of serious study of the new status effects and how they interact with one another. Any of my previous posts in this thread regarding specific changes should be disregarded. 

Cold

Initial debuff should be increased to 33%, each additional proc should refresh the duration and add a further 3% slow to a maximum of 66%.

Reasoning: 1) The biggest change I'm suggesting is that duration doesn't expire. 2) A single stack causing only 25% slow is too weak both on Tenno and on weapons that only proc cold occasionally. 3) Maximum effect of 2/3 seems reasonable.

Heat

Armor reduction maximum should be 25% (slightly less than minimum corrosive proc).

Reasoning: 1) Does too much with no downside now that it stacks damage. 2) Too good in comparison to corrosive's new effect. 3) Is not part of corrosive so its easy to have both proccing at once.

Viral

Initial boost to health damage 100%, increases by 15% per stack to maximum of 250%.

Reasoning: 1) In general I like how this was redone but at maximum effect it is simply too powerful currently. 2) Tenno can only be hit with a single stack, so the single stack effect needs to be significant. 100% places it solidly near the old version in effectiveness.

Magnetic

Initial boost to shield damage 150%, increases by 25% per stack to a maximum of 400%.

Reasoning: 1) Slight increase makes this more attractive versus toxin in at least some situations. 2) Because not all enemies have shields, this should be significantly more effective versus shields than viral is versus health.

Gas

DoT damage should scale linearly with Fire mods and with Toxin mods. Damage per tic = (1/2) * Base * (1 + Fire mod % + Toxin mod %) * (Faction specific mod %).

Reasoning: 1) The loss of the ability to go through shields versus the old gas is already a large hit, as is the reduced duration, Gas needs something more to keep it viable. 2) This is approximately the same total mod effect as before because the old gas damage was based on (toxin mod %)^2.

Impact

Mild stagger on each hit, stacking accuracy debuff as per current Blast status.

Blast

AoE crowd control of increasing stacking effect as per current Impact status.

Edited March 13, 2020 by rstripn

[sharsharv2]

well i had been farming  2 kuva lich's every day for the last 10 days i got 1 50% roll at a kuva chakkhurr and  that's all the rest was lower than 28 % like i got 10 kuva bramma and they are all (under 27%) ..... and now for the last 3 hours ive been trying to get another kuva bramma to try to get a higher % by merging the weapons and guess what ... it didn't drop at all .... tbh that's not RNG ..... that's keep dreaming u wont get what u want ... and for my opinion the chances need to be a bit better just a bit 

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, Drago55577 said:

Soapbox? Everything I said is provably correct. Even your statistics support what I said about status weapons. A meaningless jab at a factually correct post.

The only opinionated portion is how I believe status should have been transferred.

Edit: I forgot to point out a crucial flaw in the data you provided. You didn't cover damage statuses which are not about procs per second, and their performance is strictly a function of status chance and damage per second. The quantity is irrelevant, as opposed to viral where quantity is relevant and damage per second is irrelevant.

Empirically, they are strictly worse because they can no longer compete with a rifle in terms of damage proc performance, even though very few can compete in output of non-damaging procs. This is the big blow, because a pure status weapon is all about damage procs, only crit weapons only care about procs who's performance is strictly a function of volume of fire over time times status chance. 

Your data, while correct, is disingenuous. There is much more to this than what you included.

I explicitly stated that I'm not out to call anyone right or wrong by simply giving comparison studies, but if you must have some factual statements, here's mine:

There was a change.
A change needed to happen (consistency between status chances approaching versus achieving 100%)
It was a nerf to 100% status shotguns.

Those are the facts, but we have one more thing; questions: Was the nerf necessary? Was it appropriate? To answer the questions is where we lean on the numerical comparisons.

So, since I didn't do it before, this time I'll draw some conclusions from what I took the time to spec out.

> 100% status shotguns previously ranged from comparable, only slightly lower procs per second than general status rifles on a heavy 'damage based' shotgun (Tigris P), to nearly double that of the archetypal status hose rifle (P. Grakata) on a lower damage, more 'status hose' shotgun (Boar P)

Conclusion 1) 100% status shotties had the potential to be way over the performance curve at their job. 22 procs per second at base pellet count is ludicrous. Ergo, being rebalanced downwards should probably have been expected.

Using the new and properly scaled status chances, this has changed to having a mediocre proc per second on the Tigris Prime (roughly one-third of the Tiberon's rate), and for the Boar, being on-par with the general status rifle curve - not quite Clem-tier status hosing, but still on the high-end of more general status rifles.

Conclusion 2) At the high end, this change has put them on-curve with non-shotgun status alternatives. The low end is questionable. Results inconclusive for proving whether the nerf was unilaterally appropriate. The ability for shotguns to dump more of whatever statuses they're going to land over time grouped up into each shot is, arguably, an incidental benefit under the new stacking system.

 

Now then. I did not miss out on any of your damage status 'problems', because like you said, damage statuses are based on quality - weapon damage - right? If the Tigris packs 5 times more base power but 4 times fewer procs, as I pointed out, then that evens out between it and the Boar in terms of dealing damage status procs. Fewer stacked up, but more punch in the ones that do.

Let's take the current busted Viral out of the equation and assume that the damage procs and capped functional procs are reasonably equal in performance. Using your own discussions here, I conclude that you would just look to have a more equal balance of Damage Status types to Capped Stack Status types on a Tigris Prime than you would on a Boar Prime. Fewer total procs means you're less likely to overcap, and the damage equalises out in the quality > quantity debate.

On that last note, can you explain how a capped stack of 10 procs is more concerned with quantity than a potentially unlimited stack of damage procs? Seems to me like they care equally about quantity until the stack's cap is reached, at which point damage statuses actually care more, the stack is just occasional upkeep.

Edited March 11, 2020 by TheLexiConArtist

[Drago55577]

52 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I explicitly stated that I'm not out to call anyone right or wrong by simply giving comparison studies, but if you must have some factual statements, here's mine:

There was a change.
A change needed to happen (consistency between status chances approaching versus achieving 100%)
It was a nerf to 100% status shotguns.

Those are the facts, but we have one more thing; questions: Was the nerf necessary? Was it appropriate? To answer the questions is where we lean on the numerical comparisons.

So, since I didn't do it before, this time I'll draw some conclusions from what I took the time to spec out.

> 100% status shotguns previously ranged from comparable, only slightly lower procs per second than general status rifles on a heavy 'damage based' shotgun (Tigris P), to nearly double that of the archetypal status hose rifle (P. Grakata) on a lower damage, more 'status hose' shotgun (Boar P)

Conclusion 1) 100% status shotties had the potential to be way over the performance curve at their job. 22 procs per second at base pellet count is ludicrous. Ergo, being rebalanced downwards should probably have been expected.

Using the new and properly scaled status chances, this has changed to having a mediocre proc per second on the Tigris Prime (roughly one-third of the Tiberon's rate), and for the Boar, being on-par with the general status rifle curve - not quite Clem-tier status hosing, but still on the high-end of more general status rifles.

Conclusion 2) At the high end, this change has put them on-curve with non-shotgun status alternatives. The low end is questionable. Results inconclusive for proving whether the nerf was unilaterally appropriate. The ability for shotguns to dump more of whatever statuses they're going to land over time grouped up into each shot is, arguably, an incidental benefit under the new stacking system.

 

Now then. I did not miss out on any of your damage status 'problems', because like you said, damage statuses are based on quality - weapon damage - right? If the Tigris packs 5 times more base power but 4 times fewer procs, as I pointed out, then that evens out between it and the Boar in terms of dealing damage status procs. Fewer stacked up, but more punch in the ones that do.

Let's take the current busted Viral out of the equation and assume that the damage procs and capped functional procs are reasonably equal in performance. Using your own discussions here, I conclude that you would just look to have a more equal balance of Damage Status types to Capped Stack Status types on a Tigris Prime than you would on a Boar Prime. Fewer total procs means you're less likely to overcap, and the damage equalises out in the quality > quantity debate.

On that last note, can you explain how a capped stack of 10 procs is more concerned with quantity than a potentially unlimited stack of damage procs? Seems to me like they care equally about quantity until the stack's cap is reached, at which point damage statuses actually care more, the stack is just occasional upkeep.

Just to address that last note, because any proc over the cap is wasted, effectively lowering your status chance. I covered this before. Uncapped procs don't reach a point where they have no additional benefit.

Your conclusions, are again, disingenuous at best and out right wrong at worst. They are only correct under the assumption that we are not using damage procs. While correct, this assumption is wrong. Your conclusion is wrong because your assumption is wrong. Damage statuses are the entire performance of a status weapon. 

Now, damage statuses damage is based on the damage of the pellet. Every pellet added together equals the total damage of the weapon. The amount of statuses is determined by the status chance, further affected by the damage types percentage of the total damage. Logically, the effectiveness of damage statuses is strictly a function of f(total damage x status chance x damage type percentage). Divided by average firerate to know it's effectiveness over time. Well, that's not entirely true. VERY low hit event over time guns like the Lenz are heavily affected. But this is a minority of guns. You could create a status efficiency formula with the damage per hit vs the damage over time, if you wanted.) Judging status weapons purely by their quantity of procs, in conclusion, is not accurate because it is a small portion of their strength.

What you said about the Tigris in regards to viral is correct, it has less total procs so will be more efficient at applying statuses without wasted procs.

As for damage distribution, we don't have the kind of control. We are limited in both mods and mod slots, and unless a drastic change were to happen to modding, this isn't a solution. What we can do is fix the discrepancy between high and low volume of fire weapons and how effective they are with status. Equal builds are penalized further as the gap between damage per second and damage per hit increases.

Edit: I don't disagree that a change needed to happen. Old status was misleading and the gap between 20% and 30% status weapons was far too large and made too many weapons non viable.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Drago55577

[TheLexiConArtist]

52 minutes ago, Drago55577 said:

Just to address that last note, because any proc over the cap is wasted, effectively lowering your status chance. I covered this before. Uncapped procs don't reach a point where they have no additional benefit.

Ergo, capped statuses do not care as much about quantity, as a finite number are required in any given timeframe. Uncapped (damage) care equally and indefinitely about both quantity and quality. 

52 minutes ago, Drago55577 said:

Your conclusions, are again, disingenuous at best and out right wrong at worst. They are only correct under the assumption that we are not using damage procs. While correct, this assumption is wrong. Your conclusion is wrong because your assumption is wrong. Damage statuses are the entire performance of a status weapon. 

Courtesy the previous point, no. Procs per second matter equally for damage as the damage of the proc itself. You can't circular logic your way out of that one. Conclusion 1 states that 100% shotties were capable of more and/or beefier procs over time than equivalent non-shotguns. Conclusion 2 states that the proc-per-second of the Boar Prime is equivalent, and exactly when considering damage status output, the Tigris' 500%D / 25%P ratio puts it at an even keel with the Boar.  If anything, the conclusions suffer more from arguing the nature of non-damage statuses - but with the sweeping stackable changes between Old and New, this is a tougher nut to crack.

52 minutes ago, Drago55577 said:

Now, damage statuses damage is based on the damage of the pellet. Every pellet added together equals the total damage of the weapon. The amount of statuses is determined by the status chance, further affected by the damage types percentage of the total damage. Logically, the effectiveness of damage statuses is strictly a function of f(total damage x status chance x damage type percentage). Divided by average firerate to know it's effectiveness over time. Well, that's not entirely true. VERY low hit event over time guns like the Lenz are heavily affected. But this is a minority of guns. You could create a status efficiency formula with the damage per hit vs the damage over time, if you wanted.) Judging status weapons purely by their quantity of procs, in conclusion, is not accurate because it is a small portion of their strength.

Please don't strawman my arguments. I am not judging anything purely by quantity, I am giving equal weight to quantity as quality where you seem to want to ignore it entirely when damage is the subject.

I compared shotgun to shotgun because we already know they boast generally superior damage to rifles as a consequence of the 'risk/reward' involved in having spread and falloff.
Case in point: Boar Prime has 46 average damage/pellet (averaged w/crit), Prisma Grakata a mere 20.625 damage per bullet. While this doesn't reflect the sustained direct damage output, since we've interpreted the procs per second from the rest of those stats, only the per-bullet actually matters when purely discussing status output - if 10 bullets per second are proccing, then it doesn't matter if you're firing exactly 10 per second or 100, it's still 10 times the output of a singular bullet.
Using old status, therefore, the Boar was boasting approximately 4.5 times the potential status damage of the Grakata, with ~2.25x damage per pellet and ~2x procs per second.

Back to shotgun versus shotgun, then, 10 procs per second of 10 damage per tick is equivalent to 1 proc per second of 100 damage per tick. Simplest maths. The Boar and Tigris have equal pellets per shot, the total damage ratio is 1:5 and calculated average procs per second are 4:1. Therefore, for damage statuses, the Tigris still boasts 125% superior output to the Boar as its 25% procs are each dealing 500% damage in comparison.
Again, the curve and distribution of total output may differ as a factor of approaching non-damaging status Stack Caps but once those caps are reached, further growth is strictly the product of those two ratios.

52 minutes ago, Drago55577 said:

As for damage distribution, we don't have the kind of control. We are limited in both mods and mod slots, and unless a drastic change were to happen to modding, this isn't a solution. What we can do is fix the discrepancy between high and low volume of fire weapons and how effective they are with status. Equal builds are penalized further as the gap between damage per second and damage per hit increases.

You can still lean on additional elementals, and now pure-status mods to change both element selection and their weighting. Shotguns currently have a small potential benefit in this regard compared to Rifles. Why?

Primed Charged Shell exists, increasing distribution of pure Electric if you're into that. Blaze exists to increase distribution of Heat (potentially Gas if it wasn't awful now). Both are good mods. Rifles on the other hand have Primed Cryo Rounds, which is never a damage status source, and Wildfire which, while offering Heat weighting, is much less attractive than Blaze (secondary stat being mag size versus bonus flat damage). Secondaries are in the middle-ground by having a relevant Primed elemental (Heated Charge) but a useless-for-purpose non-status elemental dualstat mod (Ice Storm, cold and magazine)

Edited March 11, 2020 by TheLexiConArtist
fixed an oopsie on the grakata per-bullet crit average

[Drago55577]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Ergo, capped statuses do not care as much about quantity, as a finite number are required in any given timeframe. Uncapped (damage) care equally and indefinitely about both quantity and quality. 

Courtesy the previous point, no. Procs per second matter equally for damage as the damage of the proc itself. You can't circular logic your way out of that one. Conclusion 1 states that 100% shotties were capable of more and/or beefier procs over time than equivalent non-shotguns. Conclusion 2 states that the proc-per-second of the Boar Prime is equivalent, and exactly when considering damage status output, the Tigris' 500%D / 25%P ratio puts it at an even keel with the Boar.  If anything, the conclusions suffer more from arguing the nature of non-damage statuses - but with the sweeping stackable changes between Old and New, this is a tougher nut to crack.

Please don't strawman my arguments. I am not judging anything purely by quantity, I am giving equal weight to quantity as quality where you seem to want to ignore it entirely when damage is the subject.

I compared shotgun to shotgun because we already know they boast generally superior damage to rifles as a consequence of the 'risk/reward' involved in having spread and falloff.
Case in point: Boar Prime has 46 average damage/pellet (averaged w/crit), Prisma Grakata a mere 20.625 damage per bullet. While this doesn't reflect the sustained direct damage output, since we've interpreted the procs per second from the rest of those stats, only the per-bullet actually matters when purely discussing status output - if 10 bullets per second are proccing, then it doesn't matter if you're firing exactly 10 per second or 100, it's still 10 times the output of a singular bullet.
Using old status, therefore, the Boar was boasting approximately 4.5 times the potential status damage of the Grakata, with ~2.25x damage per pellet and ~2x procs per second.

Back to shotgun versus shotgun, then, 10 procs per second of 10 damage per tick is equivalent to 1 proc per second of 100 damage per tick. Simplest maths. The Boar and Tigris have equal pellets per shot, the total damage ratio is 1:5 and calculated average procs per second are 4:1. Therefore, for damage statuses, the Tigris still boasts 125% superior output to the Boar as its 25% procs are each dealing 500% damage in comparison.
Again, the curve and distribution of total output may differ as a factor of approaching non-damaging status Stack Caps but once those caps are reached, further growth is strictly the product of those two ratios.

You can still lean on additional elementals, and now pure-status mods to change both element selection and their weighting. Shotguns currently have a small potential benefit in this regard compared to Rifles. Why?

Primed Charged Shell exists, increasing distribution of pure Electric if you're into that. Blaze exists to increase distribution of Heat (potentially Gas if it wasn't awful now). Both are good mods. Rifles on the other hand have Primed Cryo Rounds, which is never a damage status source, and Wildfire which, while offering Heat weighting, is much less attractive than Blaze (secondary stat being mag size versus bonus flat damage). Secondaries are in the middle-ground by having a relevant Primed elemental (Heated Charge) but a useless-for-purpose non-status elemental dualstat mod (Ice Storm, cold and magazine)

While I'd argue it's just semantics, I can see your point. Capped statuses don't care about quantity in regards to themself, it's only relevant relational to damage statuses. So while my reasoning was they care because they're not doing anything when their quantity is too large, which I believe is correct, it's more correct to just say that because damage statuses care about quantity while capped do not, having more capped procs vs uncapped is detrimental to uncapped.

Your arguments hinge on comparisons between weapons that exist, which I will concede may be correct, from a balancing perspective. I was speaking in hypotheticals to illustrate that there are no mechanical differences that warrant different treatment. A rifle and a shotgun are equivalent.

Procs per second don't matter for damage though. 10 procs of 10 damage/s and 100 procs of 1 damage/s are equivalent over time, so we can reason that amount does not matter. Only the damage per second of the gun multiplied by it's status chance matters. Two guns with equal dps but an order of magnitude different pellet counts will perform identically, disregarding status capping which comes into play as you require more hits to kill the enemy than 8/your status chance. 

As for builds, well, that could be a whole new discussion as we find what current optimal builds are for each weapon, and their effectiveness on similar weapons and the difference in dps increase vs base.

Edit: regarding the boar vs the Tigris, the boar will sooner cap capped procs, leading to wasted procs sooner. So it's effective enemy tankyness before it starts losing status efficiency is lower than the Tigris, which is what I've been trying to convey but with hypotheticals.

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Drago55577

[--END--Rikutatis]

Impact heavy weapons became awful knocking down enemies left and right. At least blast was something you purposefully modded for if you wanted that kind of CC. Impact weapons were already worse and just became  horrible with the knockdown changes. It's good you removed ragdolling, but knockdown isn't that much different to be honest. I don't know why we have to go through all this again after all the feedback we gave you years ago in damage 2.0 and how knocking down or ragdolling enemies actually makes the weapon worse since we can't follow up shots effectively or headshot at all afterwards. At least in melee combat you get ground finishers out of knockdowns. While shooting that's just a liability. Please remove the knockdown and give impact something else or or swap it with blast again. Make blast CC and impact reduce accuracy. Either that or give a heavy damage bonus while shooting knocked down enemies similar to melee ground finishers to make it worthwhile using. 

[Andele3025]

If you'll lelt me fix some stuff

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

> 100% status shotguns previously ranged from comparable, only slightly lower procs per second than general status rifles on a heavy 'damage based' shotgun (Tigris P), to nearly double that of the archetypal status hose rifle (P. Grakata) on a lower damage, more 'status hose' shotgun (Boar P)

Dont act like Tigris Prime wasnt a status shotgun just because it isnt anymore as the nerf nerfed by pellet count not by status. Tigris isnt a "heavy damage based" shogtun, it WAS a status shotgun, the duplex (thus more focused on burst) vs auto (thus more focused on sustained) is not a valid point of argument for it.

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

100% status shotties had the potential to be way over the performance curve at their job. 22 procs per second at base pellet count is ludicrous.

18-24 procs a sec is what a status build on hybrid weapons tends to do. Everything from the Gal Vandal to Tiberon. Hell non status rifles tend to achieve around 14-16 procs a second with status builds or in case of actual dedicated status guns, circa 32-44 procs a second.

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Using the new and properly scaled status chances, this has changed to having a mediocre proc per second on the Tigris Prime (roughly one-third of the Tiberon's rate), and for the Boar, being on-par with the general status rifle curve

Which just just a fancy way of saying "Status shotguns got nerfed to have that status chance of non-status weapons without getting buffed (in fire rate or crit) in turn.

 

[IMP_102]

In terms of stats previously we had (very roughly) status balanced vs crit, damage vs. speed. Now that most status effects stack it feels like slower hitting weapons are being left behind. Crit is balanced vs. speed just fine since it scales of weapon damage, but status is not. I think DE should consider giving an additional boost to status chance of weapons based on the speed. This ofcourse needs to accound for multi-shot inherent to some weapons, but I think in general the less attempts a weapon gets (due to speed) at applying status per unit time, the higher base status should be to compensate for that.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Dont act like Tigris Prime wasnt a status shotgun just because it isnt anymore as the nerf nerfed by pellet count not by status. Tigris isnt a "heavy damage based" shogtun, it WAS a status shotgun, the duplex (thus more focused on burst) vs auto (thus more focused on sustained) is not a valid point of argument for it.

It's a damage-oriented status weapon as opposed to a total procs status weapon. Both deal statuses, yes, but one puts its power budget into damage; in extrapolation, the Tigris is to the Boar what the Boltor is to the Grakata from my examples. Just further stretching the differences. Its reload quotient is still only 60% of the Boar's, so it's not just 'burst versus sustained'.

2 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

18-24 procs a sec is what a status build on hybrid weapons tends to do. Everything from the Gal Vandal to Tiberon. Hell non status rifles tend to achieve around 14-16 procs a second with status builds or in case of actual dedicated status guns, circa 32-44 procs a second.

Those were all zero multishot calculations. You're comparing after multishot to before multishot (old Boar would do >50 with Hell's Chamber). Disregarding rivens, this means that our Prisma Grak would have been still limping behind at ~22 because Split Chamber is also a weaker multishot mod.

2 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Which just just a fancy way of saying "Status shotguns got nerfed to have that status chance of non-status weapons without getting buffed (in fire rate or crit) in turn.

No, it says that the upper end of status shotties is now moreso in line with status weapons instead of skyrocketing doubly above them. The Tigris sitting below the curve of procs per second, however, is just a lingering question as to whether its damage-status potential being 25% higher relative to Boar makes up for the fewer non-damage procs.

[nslay]

I have thought about these changes a lot in the past week. I am largely happy with the changes to shotguns though I do feel there is no longer much novelty to shotguns... as compared to say, burst rifles. OK, they are super versions of burst rifles? Anyway...

I have some proposed "changes" (more like changes in interpretation) to shotguns to solve these problems:
1) Change the perspective on "per-shot" chance while keeping the new system largely unchanged which already address complaints about the old system (i.e. unintuitive interpretation of per-shot status chance as related to pellets).
2) Restore the novelty to shotguns while providing a perspective/tools of balance.
3) Enable "overstatus" to work on most shotguns (unreachable now on most shotguns).

Perspective

The old system defines a "shot" of a shotgun to be comprised of multiple pellets. A "shot" is said to proc status if at least one of those pellets proc status. While this approach follows from probability theory, it was unfriendly to players because it's hard for players to imagine the "per-pellet" behavior (without a calculator). But it did give shotguns novelty in that all the pellets could be made to proc status. It was very satisfying to use shotguns this way!

I propose "per-shot" status instead be defined and balanced with respect to the Binomial distribution's mean. That is, if the pellet proc status is P and the number of pellets is N, define the "per-shot" status "chance" S to be

S = N*P

This is the mean of the binomial distribution B(N,P). This salvages DE's botched approximation so that

P = S / N

This definition of per-shot status (which is now hidden in the UI and won't confuse anyone) extends well for overstatus as the value can clearly be larger than 1 (S also now means the number of pellets that proc status on average). It keeps DE's UI and coding the same and only alters the interpretation.

To further elucidate the function of this system (which likely doesn't change anything), denote IP to be the integer part and FP to denote the fraction part of the per-pellet status chance P

• Every pellet shall proc status IP times (guaranteed).
• Every pellet shall have FP chance to proc an additional status.

Some posters have expressed concerns about balance of old 100% status chance design while ignoring proc priorities, the mod cost and the removal of 4x weighting. Without Rivens, for example, even the Tigris Prime was limited to proccing half of its pellets as Slash owing to the mods and proc priorities. With the removal of the 4x weighting scheme, this is slightly less than 30% of the pellets now (even when taking buffed Shotgun Savvy into consideration).

Restoring Novelty

In addition to balancing around the Binomial distribution's mean rather than proc/no proc, remember the proc priorities are a valuable balancing tool and that players still inevitably need to spend mod slots to fit 60/60 mods which alter the proc priorities. For example, a Tigris Prime modded for 100% status could only proc Slash on half the pellets on average in the old system (that's with 4x IPS weighting). Even with the buffed Shotgun Savvy and removal of the 4x weighting scheme, this changes Slash procs to just less than 30% of the pellets for a hypothetical 100% "per-shot" status Tigris Prime. The rest of pellets still proc status, but they were less powerful/unstackable/capped effects. Tigris Prime is an "outlier" in the sense that it had offered proc priorities favorable to a powerful DoT effect. But there are also a great many shotguns that are designed with bad innate proc priorities (Impact/Puncture), low base damage, or with still-not-that-powerful innate elements (e.g. Radiation).

So I would hope DE take another look at pellet status chance and try to restore novelty to the high pellet shotguns (allowing many of them to attain 100%+ per-pellet status chance) remembering the mod cost, proc priorities (and removal of 4x weighting), and Binomial distribution mean interpretation to pick these values. I will try to do some math later to make, for example, a "balanced" high status Tigris Prime using mod cost/proc priorities as a tool (i.e. so that a modded Tigris Prime procs about the same ratio and quantity of pellets as Slash as before). I will also try to do similar for Strun Wraith (i.e. so that a modded Strun Wraith procs Impact on about the same number of pellets as before).

Overstatus

This has already been said, but since "per-shot" status is equivalent to the mean of B(N,P) instead of the bounded probability value of the old system, overstatus follows quite naturally. It's similar to how CPU usage or load is reported on multi-core systems (e.g. 300% CPU usage means the equivalent of 3 full cores are in use)... only for a game with shotguns and pellets. As I've said numerous times, I do think 100%+ per-pellet shotguns can be balanced around proc priorities.

 

So that's my amateur point of view for shotguns. I don't see why we can't enjoy balanced high status shotguns (even 100%+) on even the likes of offenders like Tigris Prime by balancing around the average number of pellets that proc, proc priorities, and neutered/capped status effects that inevitably pollute the proc priorities (ignoring Rivens). Shotguns are still very powerful in the new system, but they do not feel very special anymore.

Also, it bothers me that the pea shooter Soma Prime can down a level 140 Gokstad Officer in 1 magazine. It takes a Kuva Kohm 1 magazine to down the same level 140 Gokstad Officer... but the Kuva Kohm should far surpass the Soma Prime in raw damage/status output.

 

[CopperBezel]

7 hours ago, rstripn said:

Note: These are not kneejerk reactions. This is the result of serious study of the new status effects and how they interact with one another. Any of my previous posts in this thread regarding specific changes should be disregarded.

The following are the status effects that need balancing and how they should be changed. Unlisted status effects are good as is.

Cold

Initial debuff should be increased to 33%, each additional proc should refresh the duration and add a further 3% slow to a maximum of 66%.

Fire

Armor reduction maximum should be 25% (slightly less than minimum corrosive proc).

Viral

Initial boost to health damage 100%, increases by 15% per stack to maximum of 250%.

Why on Earth would you want to nerf Heat? The nerf to Viral is good, although I'd really like to see that initial 100% halved as well. The change to Cold feels very minor and I'm not sure what the benefit would be. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

Any changes to status procs should be done mindful of the impact they would also have on players.

I can see, as stated earlier in the thread, that DE has not considered this. Electric procs, for example, are absolute murder in so many places where they were only an added inconvenience before. They're the new age of Mutalist Osprey toxin procs. One wrong application and you might just inevitably die if you're a softer frame.

[CopperBezel]

I was noticing the difference with Cold procs doing an Exploiter Orb run. (Still no Shocking Step, and even got a Freezing Step to rub it in.) Cold procs are exceptionally inconvenient now. Not a bad change in that case, just more to avoid. (The worst status effect on players is still Magnetic and that one's deliberate.)

[Andele3025]

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

It's a damage-oriented status weapon as opposed to a total procs status weapon. Both deal statuses, yes, but one puts its power budget into damage; in extrapolation, the Tigris is to the Boar what the Boltor is to the Grakata from my examples. Just further stretching the differences. Its reload quotient is still only 60% of the Boar's, so it's not just 'burst versus sustained'.

No. Its simply duplex vs auto. And you do know that with most mag sizes over 12~ish you can reload between packs of enemies/rooms, right?

Quote

Those were all zero multishot calculations. You're comparing after multishot to before multishot (old Boar would do >50 with Hell's Chamber). Disregarding rivens, this means that our Prisma Grak would have been still limping behind at ~22 because Split Chamber is also a weaker multishot mod.

No. Prisma grak on full status build does 52 procs a second. Boar (and Strunt) Hit much more impressive numbers because its full auto (and for the Strunt, it had a better mod budget and stats closer to full auto despite being semi auto at the cost of the individual load thus the freed up mod budget would most likely go on reload), but that has nothing to do with eachother because the Prisma Grakata is a hybrid weapon leaning crit AND the more impressive numbers to align around the same as full on deciaded status statblocks (e.g. full auto tiberon prime... or even the quartakk).

Quote

No, it says that the upper end of status shotties is now moreso in line with status weapons instead of skyrocketing doubly above them. The Tigris sitting below the curve of procs per second, however, is just a lingering question as to whether its damage-status potential being 25% higher relative to Boar makes up for the fewer non-damage procs.

No. It just means that once status shotguns with high pellet counts are now nerfed to no longer be good status weapons (or at best, as good as insanely outdated guns like the burston and braton prime) compared to rivals in rifles and pistols, because DE had the genious bar idea of nerfing by pellet count instead of convering by representative status. Its why the Kohm nerfs itself as you spool it up and why the Exergis was functionally untouched... and why the Hek is now about as good at status as the Tigris.

Also, tigris only beats the boar by around 12-14% higher full build average (accounting for both burst and sustained on a sane build, you could have gone for shotgun spazz and cutting it down to circa 7~%, but thats kinda insane/very playstyle specific) firepower, but actually requires mid combat reloads dividing its status per sec power massively making that difference moot.

P.S. @nslay

"it bothers me that the pea shooter Soma Prime can down a level 140 Gokstad Officer in 1 magazine. It takes a Kuva Kohm 1 magazine to down the same level 140 Gokstad Officer... but the Kuva Kohm should far surpass the Soma Prime in raw damage/status output." - id argue that they should be equal (as in most kuva and prime weapons), just not in the sense of the Soma Prime should be the baseline (and it should instead be buffed by 4~5 base slash damage per shot/upped to 10~11 base slash from 6 or given the guaranteed crit/40% crit chance with slightly less spread if to focus on headcrits to be in the modern ballpark of dps, without breaching into kitgun broke category).

Edited March 11, 2020 by Andele3025

[nslay]

17 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

P.S. @nslay

"it bothers me that the pea shooter Soma Prime can down a level 140 Gokstad Officer in 1 magazine. It takes a Kuva Kohm 1 magazine to down the same level 140 Gokstad Officer... but the Kuva Kohm should far surpass the Soma Prime in raw damage/status output." - id argue that they should be equal (as in most kuva and prime weapons), just not in the sense of the Soma Prime should be the baseline (and it should instead be buffed by 4~5 base slash damage per shot/upped to 10~11 base slash from 6 or given the guaranteed crit/40% crit chance with slightly less spread if to focus on headcrits to be in the modern ballpark of dps, without breaching into kitgun broke category).

The Soma Prime is a low MR weapon (MR 7) and there is a correlation between MR rating of a weapon and its power (it's not always true!). The Kuva weapons have higher MR rating and are supposed to represent some of the most powerful weapons the game has to offer. There is no way I would expect Soma Prime (with its very low base damage) to be comparable to the Kuva Kohm. That seems like an error to me.

That said, I do like playing with the Soma Prime! Soma Prime is also better than Prisma Grakata and Prisma Gorgon because these weapons proc Impact enough to be annoying (and they have recoil to boot! So Impact + Recoil = garbage weapons now.).

P.S. DE! Wild Frenzy on Grakata doesn't seem to work correctly with status or Hunter Munitions. If I just manually shoot a guy with one magazine, I can kill them faster than if I use Wild Frenzy and empty the clip. Stuff is not proccing correctly be it Hunter Munitions or status.

[.durandle.]

sorry if this has been mentioned by others but i feel that you guys when the wrong way with having status effects stack
i think having then stack similar to how corrosive used to stack would be far more intuitive
even if the first stack has double effect of subsequent stacks or something
eg old corrosive was a 25% reduction to armour per time it had been inflicted leasing the enemy with 0.75^x times their normal armour where x is the number of corrosive procs that have been inflicted
having other effects like viral, magnetic, impact, puncture, cold, blast, radiation all stack in this way would make for interesting game play
though you might need a different formula for say blast and have it is a >1 multiplier to accuracy rather that an increase to inaccuracy so they don't end up shooting behind themselves
to prevent enemies loosing all their armour/health/shields you could have the reduces values always round up if you wanted

for dot effects just have them stach the way they currently do is fine though new gas seems to do no damage unless you are using an aoe weapon on a group that you have clustered together with an ability like nidus larva vauban vortex or other such abilitys

also the fact that as many people have mentioned and i know i have also posted here about the major nerf to any shotgun modded for full status
probably one of the best for it was the twin rogga that could comfortably enough hit 100% status with no riven would consistently inflict 33 status effects if you hit an enemy with every pellet from a shot and could typically strip at least as much armour from an enemy as the current corrosive cap in 1 shot if you have a riven involved you can do more fun things but that is besides the point here

now the twin rogga with the same build of 2 multishot mods and 4 stat elemental mods (obviously also some damage but that is not relevant to status's inflicted)
can inflict ~7.4 status effects per shot a significant reduction from what it used to be able to do

and sure under the old status effects some of it's 33 wouldn't mean much as they would be duplicate impact and puncture procs but even then you would still have more than 7 or 8 relevant procs inflicted per shot

on top of that the only non dot that did stack has been nerf to the the point that at max stacks it does less than you would typically get from 1 or 2 shots from most 100% status shotguns and now the effect only lasts 8 seconds instead of till they die

despite you significantly reducing grineer armour scaling past lvl 84 i think it was you have in effect significantly increased their armour scalling for those that didn't permanently run 4x corrosive projection but did run any amount of corrosive status damage (more or less every shot gun build that was useable other than single projectile or crit shotguns like the arca plasmor)

another fun thing is to have a look at the armour reduction you get from corrosive now compared to old corrosive even if you only take it up to 10 stacks
it is even more depressing when you look at how corrosive and heat procs stack now and how they used to stack

old corrosive was a 25-94.37%
new corrosive is a 26-80%

and as i mentioned fire now seems to a 50% armour reduction that is now multiplicative with the 26-80% corrosive armour reduction when it used to be additive

and i recall DE explicitly stating that the interaction being additive and not multiplicative was explicitly the intended interaction between the 2
though i guess that was changed due to changes to grineer armour

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Numbers out of thin air

Gonna need more concrete evidence to show that you're not just ignoring part of the calculations to suit your argument or including the randomness of Rivens. Your numbers seem nonsense by comparison, since the PrisGrak even at pure burst is only hitting ~30 pps with Split Chamber too.

Most likely you're misleading purposefully as a means to 'undermine' the 'argument'. Which is hilarious considering it's just straight number compare.

 

For the shotties themselves, let's cut out the approximations and get down to the hard numbers, to be certain:

Boar: 8.65 procs per second, 46 avg. base damage per pellet

Tigris: 2.18 procs per second, 209 avg. base damage per pellet.

Ratios: 3.968:1 procs per second, 1:4.543 damage.

I approximated a little generously in favour of the Tigris, then, once properly accounting for the minor crit the difference drops to 114.5% Tigris proc damage. Which is close to what you said, credit where it's due.

Only that's still a superiority in damage procs favouring the Tigris, it just casts a less flattering light on the debate of how the capped statuses accumulate on the 'damage based' status gun. Which it still is, as we've now proven again. Push through all the numbers and there's still a correlation of damage and proc rate. If you could somehow build both to deal purely a single damage status, then the Tig would be doing it better despite its lower chance.

 

Using @GilgaMelchi's list, I don't see anything penalising pellet count at all. In terms of the actual status chance improvements to each shotgun in the list, other than a couple anomalous points, there's a negligible difference or even a slight upward trend in the improvement value as compared pellets per shot.

So I assume you're judging the new by the broken mechanics of the old, which is a fools' errand.

Edited March 11, 2020 by TheLexiConArtist
Yes, let's completely confuse ourselves by glazing eyes over a number of poorly formatted spreadsheet cells. Pillock.

[rstripn]

4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Why on Earth would you want to nerf Heat? The nerf to Viral is good, although I'd really like to see that initial 100% halved as well. The change to Cold feels very minor and I'm not sure what the benefit would be. 

RE: Heat

1) Does too much with no downside now that it stacks damage.

2) Too good in comparison to corrosive's new effect.

3) Is not part of corrosive so its easy to have both proccing at once.

RE: Viral

Tenno can only be hit with a single stack, so the single stack effect needs to be significant. 100% places it solidly near the old version in effectiveness.

RE: Cold

1) A single stack is too weak both on Tenno and on weapons that only proc cold occasionally.

2) Maximum should not be greater than 2/3, that's plenty high.

3) The biggest change I'm suggesting is that like heat its duration doesn't expire, so you can keep maximum slowdown active relatively easily.

[CopperBezel]

21 minutes ago, rstripn said:

1) Does too much with no downside now that it stacks damage.

Well, the damage stacking came at the same time the armor halving did, in October. It was unchanged in the mainline. But that's a phrasing detail. It could obviously still be nerfed to bring it in line with the other changes.

Anyway, it's a nice all-rounder element with a bit of everything - DoT, CC, and armor mitigation. If the problem is that a weapon is now functionally better with a bit of Heat on it alongside Viral, or Corrosive against the five enemies for which that's still a better choice, I think the problem has more to do with having just three status effects with this kind of multiplicative effect.

But as far as I can tell, Heat is the model that other things ought to be living up to. It does a few okay things but nothing wildly multiplicative. It'd be kinda nice to bring something like Cold up to its level and Viral or Corrosive down to it.

21 minutes ago, rstripn said:

Tenno can only be hit with a single stack, so the single stack effect needs to be significant. 100% places it solidly near the old version in effectiveness.

Well, 100% places it exactly at the old version's effectiveness, which halved max health for the duration, for the first stack, so the effect on us is happily unchanged, but also presently allows us to stack it from there on enemies up to a cap equivalent to quartering it. That's a massive headstart for an effect that builds, even with diminishing % returns. (Corrosive technically has growing % returns since it's subtracting from a multiplier instead of adding to a divisor, but only pulls ahead on extremely high armor on the last proc.) Could we do 75%/15%? That would be functionally close to the old effect on the player, but take three (two and two-thirds) stacks to catch up completely, and put an enemy at the cap at just under 1/3 effective health. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by CopperBezel

[rstripn]

20 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Well, the damage stacking came at the same time the armor halving did, in October. It was unchanged in the mainline. But that's a phrasing detail. It could obviously still be nerfed to bring it in line with the other changes.

Anyway, it's a nice all-rounder element with a bit of everything - DoT, CC, and armor mitigation. If the problem is that a weapon is now functionally better with a bit of Heat on it alongside Viral, or Corrosive against the five enemies for which that's still a better choice, I think the problem has more to do with having just three status effects with this kind of multiplicative effect.

But as far as I can tell, Heat is the model that other things ought to be living up to. It does a few okay things but nothing wildly multiplicative. It'd be kinda nice to bring something like Cold up to its level and Viral or Corrosive down to it.

Well, 100% places it exactly at the old version's effectiveness, which halved max health for the duration, for the first stack, so the effect on us is happily unchanged, but also presently allows us to stack it from there on enemies up to a cap equivalent to quartering it. That's a massive headstart for an effect that builds, even with diminishing % returns. (Corrosive technically has growing % returns since it's subtracting from a multiplier instead of adding to a divisor, but only pulls ahead on extremely high armor on the last proc.) Could we do 75%/15%? That would be functionally close to the old effect on the player, but take three (two and two-thirds) stacks to catch up completely, and put an enemy at the cap at just under 1/3 effective health. 

RE: Heat

My balancing is versus the average current status effect, not on a per-status level. I love Heat but either it needs a nerf or most of the other status effects need significant buffs. A big part of the goal with this mainline status change was to balance the status effects and it is a lot easier to nerf 1 or 2 than to buff all the others. Even with the armor debuff dropped Heat will still clearly be a winner in comparison to the others.

RE: Viral

Considering that warframes now generally have higher armor, that damage type modifiers no longer apply to us, and that our shields are now staggeringly more effective, I don't think it's a good idea to cut the amount that enemies can debuff us with Viral as well.

 

P.S. I have updated my original post with additional reasoning based on your feedback 🙂

Edited March 11, 2020 by rstripn

[CopperBezel]

I don't know. I don't like it. It sounds like missing the forest for the trees. Nerfing heat down to get it closer to the level of the status effects that aren't Viral or Corrosive would make sense if Viral and Corrosive didn't exist. But they do, so it's only making Heat less effective in a meta that's still going to be 90% Viral and 5% Corrosive. I would rather have three damage types to care about than one or two, and I'd still have the option of putting on a bit of Cold or Electric CC alongside my Corrosive or Viral respectively instead. Which, I mean, is exactly the spot Heat is going to occupy anyway. 

But yeah, at this point I'd suggest that if a nerfed Viral is too weak when it's used on players, it needs to get special player-only effects like Magnetic has. The current implementation is just too damn much. You know, compare that to Heat halving armor and then only additively stacking a DoT. (I'd be worried about Corrosive in the absence of Viral, but it's limited to armored enemies as it's always been, and the best thing it really has going for it is that 75% penetration on Ferrite.)

It's hard to gauge these things in practice in the current enemy scaling, since our enemies are made of paper no matter what we're using, but yeah, in principle I'm with you on bringing these things down to be on scale with one another, but let's deal with the obvious outliers first before the "slightly best remaining".