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Warframe Revised: >100% Status Chance / Shotgun Megathread

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47 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Oh, I don't think that was overlooked or accidental at all. Smashing the radical function curve down into a straight line so that status chances other than 100% on shotguns meant something was most of the point. They've just waited so long to do it that all of the actual shotguns in the game are balanced around the expectation that this is how things work, so it completely pulls the rug out from under high-status shotguns as a set.

It still should have used 100 status shotguns as the basis for the linear equation. 

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ZZ41jG2.png

  • Akbronco's status chance is currently not modified beyond dividing its status chance by pellets.
  • Fusilai's alt-fire, which uses shotgun status calculation received boost to its status chance.
  • Arca Plasmor, despite being nerfed twice, received no status improvements. Unlike most hybrids the Arca Plasmor cannot headshot, fires relatively slowly, has a limited range, and a long reload. It also has a fairly low crit multiplier despite being a hybrid.
  • Astilla, which is already an okay shotgun, received no status improvements.
  • Lastly why were these status changes not at least listed in the patch notes? It would've made it much easier to see what actually changed statistically.

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1 hour ago, Nox_Terminus said:

ZZ41jG2.png

  • Lastly why were these status changes not at least listed in the patch notes? It would've made it much easier to see what actually changed statistically.

Just to note, phage has 6 innate multishot, not 7, the 7th/mid beam counts as a hitcheck one/doesnt get influenced by multishot (why its at 13 beams (6*2+1) instead of 14 (7*2) with a 100% hells chamber, so 93/6 = 15.5)and like other beam shotguns follows beam rules (fire rate is its per second status cap per enemy, not beam count).

And because it would show that it was a 3x per pellet chance multiplier, not total status probability multiplier as was implied (or simply forgotten among the pipeline of DE much like how the note that the pox wont be getting self stagger but lose its innate toxin procs or that PSF got fixed to have true 100% chance and not have a block animation while being buffed to also include staggers).

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I just want to make a point that there is no dedicated thread to talk about the changes to statuses themselves. They all seem to be lumped together into some amalgamation. I'll chalk it up to an oversight.

My thoughts:

I don't use many shotguns other than the Tigris Prime, but, with the reduction in armor, it's really hard to gauge the difference. If I change the modding around, it still annihilates almost anything; especially viral status. However, its functional behavior, one I quite enjoyed mind you, is radically different. It used to just shred heavy units and if it wasn't instantly killed, the slash procs would get it. Now, I can dump two in the chest and it still might be alive. There may not even be enough slash procs to finish it off. This isn't the end of the world but I absolutely loved how this gun behaved and it's just so very different now.

This also doesn't take into account that the Corpus shield gates absolutely can hamper this weapon fairly negatively if it's not particularly well-aimed. Before, you only had to sorta get close and whatever was there would cease to exist.

The other shotgun gun I've been messing around with is the Kohmak. I rebuilt my single because I don't care for dual secondaries and it seemed like a good time to level it up. This thing is an absolute monster. It absolutely vomits status like there is no tomorrow. It's like the old Tigris Prime but a lot less awesome. I'm really not sure how to feel about this since it seems like such an extreme outlier compared to how other shotguns with more pellets fared in the transition.

As for the statuses themselves:

Slash - Minor nerf to its effects regarding shields but still pretty good. There is a major nerf to being able to weight it as a reliable proc given the status elemental weighting changes.

Impact - I originally didn't think this was a big deal but it can be quite annoying in certain situations. The Kohmak I mentioned above, when shooting a Nox, would have to cycle through 2-3 knockdowns before it would die. This is pretty ridiculous.

Puncture - I'm fine with this effect. A lot of people say it sucks but not everything is 100% dead at all times for everyone in every single instance of the game. "It doesn't help you kill" but who cares when there are several other effects that do that already? A couple of defensive ones are fine. It also gives Vauban an indirect party buff ability by increasing everyone's durability in a way. Though this was possible even before so it's not new.

Fire - This is absolutely boss with Nightwatch Napalm. It might be too good on its own since Corrosive was changed. I like it how it is but adjustments wouldn't be out of the question. What adjustments? Maybe ramp up the armor reduction? I don't know.

Electric - Don't really use it. Never did before. Don't now. No comment at all.

Toxic - Status effects are the same as before but shortened a bit to mirror slash. The damage still bypasses shields rendering magnetic fairly redundant.

Cold - Also didn't use it a lot before as a standalone element. No comment.

Blast - Absolutely love this effect. Like puncture, I do appreciate some defensive effects. I really appreciated this in Arbitration Excavation using my Ogris. Long range enemies couldn't hit anything! To echo many, perhaps swap this with Impact, though. You can mod for blast but you often cannot mod for impact. It's almost always there.

Corrosive - Still good but kind of a wash when viral exists in its current state. I'd rather just mod for viral and heat in most cases. Being unable to overstrip is a huge boon to this element, too. That's a solid change.

Viral - Totally awesome effects. Might be too good. Perhaps adjust the ramp up to do more damage at the later procs instead of the earlier ones? Something exponential? No idea. I just know it's good. On high rate-of-fire weapons it just melts enemies.

Radiation - Again, it's fine. It's not hurting anything. If enemies aren't shooting me, I don't really care what they are doing.

Gas - This is just very limp. It feels very weak in combat. Please adjust. It's one of my favorite elements. Perhaps give the gas-infected enemies a chance to reproduce the gas proc upon death to surrounding enemies. This would be a cool way to ramp up a lot of procs on a lot of enemies. Given its current low damage, it might be fun.

Magnetic - Rendered almost entirely defunct by Toxic existing. Maybe give this a bonus effect for Corpus/Grineer that would cause them to sometimes reload sooner than normal. Something akin to a gun jam because of the magnetic fields. This way it's not so narrowly limited in function to just one faction.

Some of this could be cleaned up by changing how the damage types interact with the different health and shield types but I don't even know where to start with that. I don't envy you, DE, haha.

Other comments:

I'm not sure how I feel about the status weighting being different. It's just different I suppose. Though, I would enjoy some IPS+status mods in the future. It would also be awesome if the basic IPS mods functioned like the elementals in regards to their bonus damage. Especially the common ones. Those things are practically worthless. I might even say buff those slightly, too.

It would also be nice to see some of the status-duration bonus mods improved. Some of them are laughably small increases and with the reduction in overall duration to some statuses they definitely won't offer the same effects. Do they round up a tick if they fall short? With everything becoming a bit more standardized, I feel these mods should also follow that line of thinking.

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6 hours ago, Nox_Terminus said:
  • Akbronco's status chance is currently not modified beyond dividing its status chance by pellets.
  • Fusilai's alt-fire, which uses shotgun status calculation received boost to its status chance.
  • Arca Plasmor, despite being nerfed twice, received no status improvements. Unlike most hybrids the Arca Plasmor cannot headshot, fires relatively slowly, has a limited range, and a long reload. It also has a fairly low crit multiplier despite being a hybrid.
  • Astilla, which is already an okay shotgun, received no status improvements.
  • Lastly why were these status changes not at least listed in the patch notes? It would've made it much easier to see what actually changed statistically.

The changes were strictly to weapons with innate multishot. The Arca Plasmor and Astilla are shotguns in category but not in mechanics, the same as the Akbronco is a shotgun in mechanics but not in category. The Astilla is a grenade weapon like the Acceltra and the Arca Plasmor is a wave gun like the Catchmoon and Fulmin semi-auto mode.

I don't think the Redeemer and Redeemer Prime received any change either, since their status chance was unchanged, but I don't have the Redeemer Prime to try 100% status chance and see if it's 10 guaranteed procs still. 

Unrelatedly, nerf Viral.

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On 2020-03-12 at 6:09 AM, TheLexiConArtist said:

So I assume you're judging the new by the broken mechanics of the old, which is a fools' errand.

the problem is people more or less only used shotguns when they could hit that state of having a broken mechanic
other than they they saw very little use other than things like the arca plasmor

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Haven't checked if it's mentioned, but orb vallis electric sources seem to be bugged? There's an enemy which can latch a wire on to warframes/ companions to deal heavy constant damage. Electric eximi also deal similar damage. Enemy dot procs are pretty strong in general, but with the constant electric source and the absurd proc chance, it easily eats through a 1050 health nidus with adaptation within seconds. 

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Ratels can still deal absurd damage at high levels, with very fast ticks

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A small thing, but now that Magnetic procs have been changed to increase damage done to shields instead of reducing them by 75%, maybe make Kyta Raknoids not immune to them anymore.

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4 hours ago, StormSaber1 said:

A small thing, but now that Magnetic procs have been changed to increase damage done to shields instead of reducing them by 75%, maybe make Kyta Raknoids not immune to them anymore.

Are you talking about the pink health bar/shield thing? That's proto shield... something entirely different. Although I'm not sure if Magnetic ever interacted with proto shield?

EDIT: Oh I see, the pink stuff is overshield (where it recharges its shields at will). But it's still using proto shields!

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Kyta_Raknoid

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Yeah, purple is always overshield, whether for Tenno, allies, or enemies. 

Proto Shield has slightly different damage bonuses and resistances than regular Shield, but actually has the same +75% for Magnetic, and the wiki has the Corpus Tech and Corpus Nullifier listed as using it. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the status effect applies to both shield types, particularly since I remember thinking that the old Magnetic proc worked on Techs, similar to how Corrosive procs affect both Ferrite and Alloy armor. 

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Magnetic status is still underwhelming, I've tested it in Fortuna messing around to get Toroid (double drop made it worth it) tbh it doesn't even help much against Kyta Raknoids, Jackals or any NPCs with insane shield regen

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About Phantasma and it's lowered (-60%, from 37 to 22) status chances...

Here's a quick comparison chart of all non archwing beam weapons :

 

Révélation

 

Primaries:

Amprex : status 22%, crit 32% x2.2 (has +3 chaining capability)
Convectrix : status 45%, crit 16% x2.4 (status before update was 24%)
Flux Rifle : status 24%, crit 10% x2.0 (augment gives +150% to +250% status over 5s)
Glaxion : status 34%, crit 8% x2.0
Glaxion Vandal : status 38%, crit 14% x2.0
Ignis : status 27%, crit 11% x2.0
Ignis Wraith : status 29%, crit 17% x2.5
Phage : status 15.5%, crit 19% x2.0 (status before update was 31%)
Phantasma : status 22%, crit 3% x1.5 (status before update was 37%)
Quanta : status 24%, crit 16% x2.2
Quanta Vandal : status 45%, crit 22% x2.4
Synapse : status 13%, crit 39% x2.7

 

Secondaries:

Atomos : status 21%, crit 15% x1.7 (has +3 chaining capability)
Cycron : status 30%, crit 12% x1.8
Embolist : status 41%, crit 3% x1.5
Gammacor : status 20%, crit 8% x1.8
Synoid Gammacor : status 28%, crit 20% x2.0
Nukor : status 29%, crit 3% x4.0
Kuva Nukor : status 50%, crit 7% x5.0 (has +4 chaining capability)
Ocucor : status 24%, crit 16% x1.8 (hits up to +4 enemies with tendrils)
Spectra : status 22%, crit 14% x2.0
Spectra : status 28%, crit 20% x2.0

 

 

As you can see, the Phantasma has now the 3rd lowest status chances of all beam primaries, and 5th lowest status chances of all beam weapons (with the Amprex, which has 10x more crit chances, a much higher multiplier, and chaining capability). It also has by far the lowest crit potential of all beam weapons (with the Embolist, which has almost double the status chances). To give Phantasma's case some perspective, it's now even worse than a normal Spectra.

DE, please consider reverting the Phantasma's status chances back to its previous 37% !

Slightly off-topic : it must be noted that the Phage also suffered a similar nerf, but at least has good crit capabilities, and can benefit from hunter munitions.

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2 hours ago, Robolaser said:

Slightly off-topic : it must be noted that the Phage also suffered a similar nerf, but at least has good crit capabilities, and can benefit from hunter munitions.

No it does not, currently the phantasma has in fact higher dps and slightly better kill time than the phage, while both are using the same crit build. If they buff phage to 35% crit (or 25 and to 7 if not even 10 base damage) i might agree. And thats not counting the fact that thats comparing already focused phage. And that it has a bug where its beam alignment gets #*!%ed up once you reload it. You really need stupid amounts of crit to make up for over two times less base damage.

Tho thats aside, id argue that the phage shouldnt be a crit shotgun, at best hybrid (tho even that is just a result of the prior round of gun changes when they bumped it up to 19% from 10%), but the true calling should IMO go by giving it some infestation trick (possibly energy version of the hema or a gun that "eats" status proc duration off enemies to buff its damage or something) with decent status (aka should be 25~ish per beam in new model) and 10% crit as it had (or 13.3 if DE wants to make a e coli joke).

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il y a une heure, Andele3025 a dit :

No it does not, currently the phantasma has in fact higher dps and slightly better kill time than the phage

Still, 19% x2 is enough for a crit build, and to use hunter munitions. Call it decent instead of good, if you prefer, but fact is that the Phage can use it's crit capability to increase it's admitedly lower base damage significantly, on top of status. But the Phantasma can't, and is limited to status only. Thus, and in my opinion, it has been more severely impacted by the status chances nerf overall.

Anyway, let's not make it a Phage vs Phantasma contest, they both suffered from the update and i wasn't implying that the Phage doesn't need to be looked at, too. Also i'm all for giving it some extra infested quirk, as you suggested.

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4 minutes ago, Robolaser said:

Still, 19% x2 is enough for a crit build, and to use hunter munitions. Call it decent instead of good, if you prefer, but fact is that the Phage can use it's crit capability to increase it's admitedly lower base damage significantly, on top of status. But the Phantasma can't, and is limited to status only. Thus, and in my opinion, it has been more severely impacted by the status chances nerf overall.

And the point of my comment was, no, much lower base damage, average crit and average crit multi means it cant use HM. Or to be precise, it using HM is about as effective as using it on the phantasma with its 3%. Literally, phant gets better kill time with it viral crit modded setup than phage has with viral hm or corrosive hm on average. Not to mention that the phage was nerfed slightly harder because the nerf that happened was biased by pellet count (6* of phage vs 5 of phant) due to improper calc.

Tho to clear something up, im in general for fixing the unjust status nerfs compared to what was said (which 100% includes the phantasmas primary fire), its just the phage is 100% the wrong point of comparison as its only path to success is gutting its ammo economy into nothing to be barely average for the downsides.

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The way status is right now does not present interesting choices to the player.

We can roughly break down status designs into three categories:

  • Debuffs which ramp up and cap in effectiveness (corrosive, new viral, virtually all new statuses): these are fire-rate (and multi-shot) dependent and status-chance dependent
  • DoTs (slash, toxin, heat, electric, gas): these are not fire-rate dependent, but they are status-chance dependent
  • Debuffs which do not ramp up in effectiveness (old viral, heat armor stripping): these depend very little on either fire-rate or status-chance
  • Crowd Control (heat, radiation, old cold, electric, old blast): also depend very little on fire-rate or status-chance

With this in mind, most new statuses make fire-rate and multi-shot compete with status chance, not to mention the fact that fire-rate and multi-shot also increase your DPS, while status-chance mods need to be dual-stat to even be relevant, but dual-stats are more or less mandatory unless you don't want status chance at all. The only statuses that heavily depend on status-chance are DoTs.

Furthermore, if we look at what statuses actually do, there are really only two functions: boost the player's damage and reduce the enemy's damage. Because Heat pairs with Viral and Corrosive and depends very little on its status chance, there is one obvious choice for CC and damage that automatically pairs with the two best choices for damage.

Now let's discuss IPS 4x status weighting. In conjunction with the fact that IPS mod effectiveness is based on the weapon's base IPS distribution, the IPS distribution of the weapon was more worth considering in the past. Nowadays, a weapon with 70% base Slash and 30% base Status (using +120% Slash and two +60% dual-stats) will have 30% chance of Slash status on hit, the same as Hunter Munitions on most critical weapons, which ignore IPS distribution. Rather than removing this, wouldn't it have been more interesting to make Impact and Puncture actually useful? Puncture actually doesn't even need to be changed all that much. You could just make it 50% effective vs both types of Armor. I think it's okay to have a damage type that is purely for raw damage, considering raw damage is all that's saving some shotguns. I'm actually somewhat excited for the new proposed Impact, because it could potentially interact with Arcanes and Parazon Mods, which brings up an important question:

What if statuses actually interacted with other game mechanics?

What if Magnetic status boosted the damage dealt by Warframe Abilities the same way Ancient Disruptors reduce the damage dealt by Warframe abilities? Or hell, what if it even regenerated energy? Considering it can only be paired with Gas, Heat, and Toxin, I don't think it would be that ridiculous. It might even give Status Explosives a new niche that actually works well with their low fire-rate, or synergize with energy-hungry armor-strippers like Avalanche Frost. 

What if Electric status regenerated your shields within its AoE? This would mostly compete with Heat as an auxiliary to Viral, and it would encourage frenetic movement from enemy to enemy, like actual electricity.

What if Cold could completely freeze someone as cover? It would be like Radiation but actually playable rather than random. This would also mostly compete with Heat as an auxiliary to Corrosive, and it would encourage hunkering down, like actual cold weather. If Cold and Electric were more different, then their pairings with Corrosive and Viral would be more different, too.

I'm sure these are all awful suggestions, but they would still make for more interesting decisions than what we have now. Rather than having everything do somewhat well at the same thing, we should have different things do great at different things.

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When it comes to Damage and Status (or even Armor, Health, those sort of things) I feel I should have gonne to Tenno College to understand everything, so I apologize in advance if my feedback is limited or innacurate.

Slash - Shouldn't eat shields. It is already too much "Meta" to now have that bonus attached to it.

Impact - Should definitelly ragdoll BUT ONLY on kill! Enemy itens would drop where he was killed, while his body just flew away.

Magnetic - Should "attract" more damage to the target from ally fire (a bit like Mag's Magnitize). Because, if all the benefits for it are against Shields it becomes rather useless against other factions that aren't Corpus.

Toxic - Should create a cloud WHERE (on the map) you hit the enemy, for limited period of time.

Gas - Should create a cloud AROUND the enemy, also for a limted amount if time. Ence, if the enemy moves it spreads that gas (a bit like Nezha's firewalker).

BOTH (and I might be touching current events, but it is still a good idea) Toxic and Gas affected enemies can "transmit" their condition IF they, or other enemies, come into contact with them. If you used abilities like: Vaubans Bastille or Nidus Larva, that would help that happen too.

That's it. Hope it helps.

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So electricity is a DoT now, unless that's a bug, which I expect it is and which I've reported in the big warframe revised bug thread.

Wow. Just wow.

Until they fix it, electricity is now lord of the elements.

Each tic of damage deals full damage and scales with electrity mods.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)LeonidasxGGG said:

Magnetic - Should "attract" more damage to the target from ally fire (a bit like Mag's Magnitize). Because, if all the benefits for it are against Shields it becomes rather useless against other factions that aren't Corpus.

You know, I've always found it a strange design decision that Magnetic damage - the most prevalent kind of magnetism being ferromagnetism - is weak against the ferrite armour type.

You'd think Mag would have been casually making tinned Grineer using their own armour all this time.

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4 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You know, I've always found it a strange design decision that Magnetic damage - the most prevalent kind of magnetism being ferromagnetism - is weak against the ferrite armour type.

You'd think Mag would have been casually making tinned Grineer using their own armour all this time.

Iron (ferrite) is actually an excellent protection against magnetic fields for whatever is inside the iron shell. All conductive metals are. Transient electromagnetic fields can only penetrate a very small distance into them. What's special about ferromagnetic materials (iron, cobalt, nickel) are that they will sometimes form their own magnetic fields without being forced into that alignment externally.

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@TheLexiConArtist

Note: The same materials that are best for shielding against transient EM fields are also the ones a magnetic field can move the most easily. So if you had say a grineer behind a plate of iron, you'd have trouble affecting him directly with a magnetic field but you could affect him indirectly by hitting him with the wall.

i.e. your point about Mag might still be true, depending on the construction and exact composition of the armor. 🙂

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I don’t get the logic behind the shotgun status nerf.

Steve said it should actually be a buff given the fact that you can now double proc status, but given the fact that only one maybe 2 shotguns can actually reach past 100% Status I don’t see how double Status is supposed to help shotguns as a whole.

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It is technically a buff for sub 100% builds of shotguns. The problem is that DE seemed to not realize that most players modded most of the shotguns to have 100% status. Only 4 shotguns before could not reach 100% status with normal mods (and only one of those four would be a shotgun anyone would use).

So DE buffed shotguns for unrealistic builds and usages of shotguns that nobody used.

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What Steve was introducing there was the "everything stacks" system, and they confusingly brought in the >100% status aspect as well at the same time. It's a bit to untangle.

  1. Shotguns couldn't have worked the way they used to in a system where >100% status chance was possible. The funky-looking status numbers were the chance of at least one pellet causing a proc, which mean that they didn't give you any idea what number of procs to expect at all. Well, without applying a funky formula based on pellet count. But in that formulation, 100% chance (and this by extension on any weapon, not just shotguns) just meant 0% chance of not causing a proc, and greater than 100% chance would have no mathematical meaning.
  2. The ability to go past 100% status also only makes sense if there's some benefit to the second of two identical procs, because whatever the weapon's damage type leaning, it's very likely to hit the same thing again more often than not. 
  3. So they added universal stacking to procs. Previously, the only stacking procs were DoTs and Corrosive. Of those, Corrosive alone stacked by number of procs, rather than converting a multiple of the damage of the proccing projectile; DoTs stacked exactly as if they'd been one proc on twice as big a bullet and still do, unaffected by any of this. But importantly, now, statuses that don't have a damage component stack by raw number of hits, same as Corrosive did. 
  4. This last part is a benefit to shotguns, which are good at stacking statuses, using any statuses that aren't DoT or Corrosive. Right now, the only other really good one is Viral, but it's (intended to be) true of Cold, Impact, Blast, and Radiation as well. This doesn't have anything to do with >100% status on a projectile or double-proccing; it just relates to volume of fire, which shotguns in theory excel at, since a single trigger pull can apply multiple status effects including stacked duplicates. 

So having more than 100% status chance on a weapon is more like an alternative to being a shotgun than it is directly about shotguns. What actually happened was that shotguns got their status chance curve straightened out, which was a buff to the actual, in-effect status chance of shotguns that weren't already showing 100%, but a nerf to those that were, while "applying multiple status effects on the same attack", something shotguns are theoretically good at, got a buff through all the new status effects.

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