Warframe Revised: >100% Status Chance / Shotgun Megathread

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Yeah, which is not really different to what actually happens with >100% crit or status chance now, which is "you get one and have the remainder chance to roll for the next". Luckily, though, we dodged that bullet and got sensible numbers instead.

They are only sensible for a minority of shotguns. Most status shotguns have low crit and are rubbished by the new approach.

To be clear, crit is a workaround to badly chosen numbers The crit helps overcome the status nerf of which only about four shotguns can properly exploit.

[TheLexiConArtist]

As shown in the most recent chart I supplied, the change has buffed every (standard, pellet-based) shotgun to ~120% or greater expected procs per second, assuming a standardised 4*60% status chance mod load, except when the shotgun could achieve the (ostensibly broken) 100% status chance threshold of the old system - sole exception of the Exergis, which got an improved proc-per-second expectation despite being able to hit 100% before.

Shotguns just don't need to proc multi-status per pellet to be on par with status rifles.

 

Edited March 16, 2020 by TheLexiConArtist

[nslay]

1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

As shown in the most recent chart I supplied, the change has buffed every (standard, pellet-based) shotgun to ~120% or greater assuming a standardised 4*60% status chance mod load, except when the shotgun could achieve the (ostensibly broken) 100% status chance threshold of the old system - sole exception of the Exergis, which got an improved proc-per-second expectation despite being able to hit 100% before.

Shotguns just don't need to proc multi-status per pellet to be on par with status rifles.

 

Yes, and that threshold is technically 23% (don't forget old Shotgun Savvy and/or Motus Setup). You are aware that only 4 shotguns fall below 23% right? The vast majority of shotguns could be modded for 100% status with just normal mods.

[CopperBezel]

7 minutes ago, nslay said:

They are only sensible for a minority of shotguns. Most status shotguns have low crit and are rubbished by the new approach.

To be clear, crit is a workaround to badly chosen numbers The crit helps overcome the status nerf of which only about four shotguns can properly exploit.

Crit chance in Warframe is a magic Endgame Scaling Factor number. It's always a workaround to badly chosen numbers. 

But yeah, I didn't say that the actual status chance assigned to any shotgun was sensible, just the way they're now scaled like everything, which I'm quite done telling you.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, nslay said:

Yes, and that threshold is technically 23% (don't forget old Shotgun Savvy and/or Motus Setup). You are aware that only 4 shotguns fall below 23% right? The vast majority of shotguns could be modded for 100% status with just normal mods.

Shotgun Savvy I'll grant you (though in its old 30% form, such a weak choice if not for the broken maths), but Motus Setup was definitely a late and bonkers powerful addition to the shotgun mod family. I said assuming standard 4*60% for good reason.

Just for the sake of argument, accounting for Shotgun Savvy in the mix before and after its own buff (so 370% net status chance before, 430% after) the result is that the Sobek, Tigris and Sancti Tigris also fall below the median line. Sobek barely cuts under at ~93%, Tigris at 72.25% and Sancti Tig at 60.2%.

 

Either way: Regardless if Motus and/or Rivens allowed most shotguns to hit the broken threshold, doesn't make it any less a threshold of breaking things.

[nslay]

33 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Shotgun Savvy I'll grant you (though in its old 30% form, such a weak choice if not for the broken maths), but Motus Setup was definitely a late and bonkers powerful addition to the shotgun mod family. I said assuming standard 4*60% for good reason.

Just for the sake of argument, accounting for Shotgun Savvy in the mix before and after its own buff (so 370% net status chance before, 430% after) the result is that the Sobek, Tigris and Sancti Tigris also fall below the median line. Sobek barely cuts under at ~93%, Tigris at 72.25% and Sancti Tig at 60.2%.

 

Either way: Regardless if Motus and/or Rivens allowed most shotguns to hit the broken threshold, doesn't make it any less a threshold of breaking things.

Even if we ignore Motus Setup (and I forgot Nano-Applicator which was not a late addition!), more than half of the old shotguns are still nerfed. The threshold is 28% when considering Shotgun Savvy alone. Ironically, Sancti Tigris was one of those 28% shotguns.

EDIT: And ironically, Sobek's augment gave it access to 100% status too.

Edited March 17, 2020 by nslay

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

I have questions for all the PC players who said things like tigris prime suffered from this.

 

I tested all of my favorite weapons(each of my loadouts uses a different weapon setup, i had 21 loadouts to test.) and out of all of them, only my fusilai failed to succeed in killing things quickly.

 

most of my weapons are stronger now due to the changes to the status effects(mainly viral.) and i didn't even have to change any of the builds I use.

 

so i'd love for someone to answer "what the -CLEM!- are you smoking?" because all this talk about various shotguns basically being killed by this update were BS. my phantasma even performs BETTER now than it did before(except against corrupt gunners.)

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

I tested Magnetic against Kyta raknoids, as these are one of the few opponents that really has strong shield / overshield. But they are immune to magnetic procs.... so magnetic damage are still widely irrelevant.

[Traumtulpe]

6 hours ago, (XB1)Orcus Imperium said:

I have questions for all the PC players who said things like tigris prime suffered from this.

I have had a Tigris Prime for a long time, as time passed it got replaced as my main weapon. After the patch I tried it again, and there is no doubt that it got even worse.

Essentially it got turned into a burst-fire rifle with a fire rate of 8,9 / 10% crit and 2x multiplier / 11.3% status. Those are TERRIBLE stats, even the high base damage cannot salvage this.

[ZiltoidiaAttacks]

Love the planned changes to Impact and Gas status.  I think you need to also fix puncture and blast.  My suggestions are:

Puncture:

On proc: (Ranged) +Punch Through for proc'ing shot (magnitude based on Puncture element damage magnitude), 

On proc: (Melee) Ignores multi-target Follow Through damage reduction for subsequent enemies (# based on puncture element damage magnitude).

On stack: +1% (max 10%) chance to enhance criticals against the target (similar to vigilante mods)

AND/OR

On stack: +2% (max 20%) chance to enhance status procs against the target (similar to vigilante but for status stacks)

Blast:

On proc: Hit deals 50% of its Blast element damage to all enemies in AoE centered on target (radius/falloff based on damage magnitude of blast element) *also triggers explosive self-stagger if applicable (except on melee weapons?)

On stack: +% inaccuracy, -% damage on affected target (Punctures current effect)

 

I think this would make both Blast and Puncture 'feel' more noticeable and gratifying, while being immersive, and giving each a definite role.

Edited March 18, 2020 by 2ndProtectsThe1st

[rstripn]

Both statements are true:

1) Status shotguns got nerfed. They cannot reliably proc per pellet 100% anymore.

2) Status shotguns got fixed. They were broken due to an issue with rounding when multishot was included in status chance.

Shotguns have innate multishot leading to very high pellet counts by the standards of (most) other weapons. Multishot being built into status calcs and rounding being applied to the result led to absolutely crazy status outputs. They were broken, had been broken forever, and were just getting more broken over time as additional mods came out. They could not stay as they were if status was going to be changed to an everything-stacks system or if status was going to start working against boss mobs. But there is no question that this was an overall nerf for the vast majority of shotguns.

 

@(XB1)Orcus Imperium

On average the status procs per second went down only if you had 100% status before, otherwise they went up. Beam weapons got a universal upgrade since they never had broken multishot calculations in the first place. And the status effects themselves are now better for high fire rate / high multishot weapons because everything stacks.

Edited March 18, 2020 by rstripn

[TRPBWhite]

On 2020-03-12 at 7:37 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

THEY

DID NOT

NERF

BASED

ON

PELLET

COUNT

I'm sorry i'm slow but:

Two hypotetical shotguns identical stats with the exception of pellet count. For numbers, lets go with 30% and 4/8 pellets each.

With the conversion they now both have they apply the exact same average number of procs. That number doesn't change no matter how many or how few pellets those two shotguns had. Before the two shotguns had a "small" but non-zero difference, which got larger as the status AND the base number of pellets increased (sure, the change would have been minimal, but still)

While not really that meaningful as a base, the difference would become larger as the +status% would increase. I get that in the old system there was a problem. But i don't think that this was one that needed changing.

Edit: Assuming i'm not really THAT terrible at maths, which i could very well be.

Edited March 17, 2020 by TRPBWhite
Assumption made clear:

[rstripn]

No longer relevant based on personal research. Posts further along have details.

^{@DE: IF you agree status shotguns got hit too hard by the update, and if you want to make any changes universal, here's an easy fix: Increase pellet count and decrease damage per pellet for each shotgun such that the non-status damage stays the same. Choose the value of pellet increase so that the average procs per second is close to the old value for the "average" shotgun. The very best of the status shotguns should overall still have less procs per second than before but the majority should end up similar to previous. Again, IF you think it needs addressing at all.}

Edited March 18, 2020 by rstripn

[.durandle.]

18 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

What Steve was introducing there was the "everything stacks" system, and they confusingly brought in the >100% status aspect as well at the same time. It's a bit to untangle.

1. Shotguns couldn't have worked the way they used to in a system where >100% status chance was possible. The funky-looking status numbers were the chance of at least one pellet causing a proc, which mean that they didn't give you any idea what number of procs to expect at all. Well, without applying a funky formula based on pellet count. But in that formulation, 100% chance (and this by extension on any weapon, not just shotguns) just meant 0% chance of not causing a proc, and greater than 100% chance would have no mathematical meaning.
2. The ability to go past 100% status also only makes sense if there's some benefit to the second of two identical procs, because whatever the weapon's damage type leaning, it's very likely to hit the same thing again more often than not. 
3. So they added universal stacking to procs. Previously, the only stacking procs were DoTs and Corrosive. Of those, Corrosive alone stacked by number of procs, rather than converting a multiple of the damage of the proccing projectile; DoTs stacked exactly as if they'd been one proc on twice as big a bullet and still do, unaffected by any of this. But importantly, now, statuses that don't have a damage component stack by raw number of hits, same as Corrosive did. 
4. This last part is a benefit to shotguns, which are good at stacking statuses, using any statuses that aren't DoT or Corrosive. Right now, the only other really good one is Viral, but it's (intended to be) true of Cold, Impact, Blast, and Radiation as well. This doesn't have anything to do with >100% status on a projectile or double-proccing; it just relates to volume of fire, which shotguns in theory excel at, since a single trigger pull can apply multiple status effects including stacked duplicates. 

So having more than 100% status chance on a weapon is more like an alternative to being a shotgun than it is directly about shotguns. What actually happened was that shotguns got their status chance curve straightened out, which was a buff to the actual, in-effect status chance of shotguns that weren't already showing 100%, but a nerf to those that were, while "applying multiple status effects on the same attack", something shotguns are theoretically good at, got a buff through all the new status effects.

the problem with this is shotguns are a large number of small hits
so now dot status effects are next to useless on them and sure now non dot/corrosive procs stack
but other than viral getting a buff the only usable procs before the change are now all weaker after the change or the same in the case of fire

meaning that this has been a net nerf to status both for shotguns that have been even more restricted to a "meta" list of usable shotguns and for status on all other weapon types as well

post rework the only usable procs are still corrosive slash heat and viral
though i guess radiation is better now
other than that i personally wouldn't run any procs other than maybe the other raw elementals (toxin to bypass shields in index and electric/cold if i have a free mod slot somehow/need some form of cc also not sure how)

of the usable procs corrosive massivly nerfed
the cap of 10 procs is comperable to 6 procs before the change

slash lost its ability to bypass shields
while viral did get a buff it isn't really worth stacking activly

and now if your main damage type on a weapon is not associated with a dot type proc then you may as well have less than half your effective status chance

and given the only dot effect that is a combined elemental is gas and it feel like it does less damage if you build for it than if you just have a single fire/toxin mod equipped as it is far too focused on being an aoe thing to be able to deal real daamage

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

9 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I have had a Tigris Prime for a long time, as time passed it got replaced as my main weapon. After the patch I tried it again, and there is no doubt that it got even worse.

Essentially it got turned into a burst-fire rifle with a fire rate of 8,9 / 10% crit and 2x multiplier / 11.3% status. Those are TERRIBLE stats, even the high base damage cannot salvage this.

yet my tigris prime's ability to kill hasn't changed. i'd even say its stronger now than before(this has nothing to do with new weapons being better in terms of performance. i'm aware that various weapons out perform Tigris prime's overwhelming damage numbers....my CERNOS PRIME performs better overall.)

 

my point is that anyone who says that weapons like tigris prime, phantasma and various others were gutted unless you change the build were wrong, because i didn't have to change my builds at all and they still perform better now than before.

 

for context: i use dedicated loadouts for each warframe. that way i force myself to use different playstyles based on frame. Tigris prime, euphona and orthos primes all go to my oberon prime, for example...who i use often.

[CopperBezel]

58 minutes ago, .durandle. said:

the problem with this is shotguns are a large number of small hits
so now dot status effects are next to useless on them and sure now non dot/corrosive procs stack
but other than viral getting a buff the only usable procs before the change are now all weaker after the change or the same in the case of fire

meaning that this has been a net nerf to status both for shotguns that have been even more restricted to a "meta" list of usable shotguns and for status on all other weapon types as well

post rework the only usable procs are still corrosive slash heat and viral
though i guess radiation is better now
other than that i personally wouldn't run any procs other than maybe the other raw elementals (toxin to bypass shields in index and electric/cold if i have a free mod slot somehow/need some form of cc also not sure how)

of the usable procs corrosive massivly nerfed
the cap of 10 procs is comperable to 6 procs before the change

slash lost its ability to bypass shields
while viral did get a buff it isn't really worth stacking activly

and now if your main damage type on a weapon is not associated with a dot type proc then you may as well have less than half your effective status chance

and given the only dot effect that is a combined elemental is gas and it feel like it does less damage if you build for it than if you just have a single fire/toxin mod equipped as it is far too focused on being an aoe thing to be able to deal real daamage

Right, in practice, among the non-DoT effects, Corrosive got a nerf and Viral got a buff, and everything else is still non-meta. I would definitely say that Viral stacking matters, though of course less than Corrosive stacking, and I'm usually seeing three or four procs even on weaker units by the time they die, which means that for heavies it certainly speeds up the kill. In the DoTs, Slash got nerfed in being even harder to build for now and Gas is presently nerfed into F tier - whether the larger, persistent, but still very weak AoE DoT Gas is getting instead is going to matter in practice we'll really have to wait and see for the update. 

The Corrosive nerf and armor changes were meant to work together, but remove the situation where very high status and very high armor meet, which means that weapons that excelled at that just lost the role entirely. 

Basically, they set out to nerf the top tier and buff the lower tiers, with everything from shotgun status chances to stacking status effects to the unrelated arcane changes and so on. I think they technically succeeded, but didn't actually close the gap in a way that made more options viable. They did remove some of the more ridiculous extremes and flatten the overall scale a bit, but the top tier didn't really expand and the middle tier lost some things as indirect consequences of nerfs to top-tier things. 

[Andele3025]

49 minutes ago, .durandle. said:

meaning that this has been a net nerf to status both for shotguns that have been even more restricted to a "meta" list of usable shotguns and for status on all other weapon types as well

Technically, not much of a nerf for any non-innate multishot weapon. In fact the few non-"shotguns type" shotguns (cernos) got buffed by it. Shotguns just got nerfed because DE nerfed by pellet count for no reason.

49 minutes ago, .durandle. said:

slash lost its ability to bypass shields

True, tho in case of slash the true nerf was removing physical types weighting without buffing the physical type mods to account for it as slash damaging shields is still kills enemies fast, but now cant kill frames as fast.

3 hours ago, rstripn said:

@DE:

IF you agree status shotguns got hit too hard by the update, and if you want to make any changes universal, here's an easy fix:

Increase pellet count and decrease damage per pellet for each shotgun such that the non-status damage stays the same. Choose the value of pellet increase so that the average procs per second is close to the old value for the "average" shotgun. The very best of the status shotguns should overall still have less procs per second than before but the majority should end up similar to previous.

Again, IF you think it needs addressing at all.

OR just properly calculate status chance for shotguns so that once status shotguns are again shotguns instead of the vhek being about as effective at status as the tigris prime.

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, TRPBWhite said:

I'm sorry i'm slow but:

Two hypotetical shotguns identical stats with the exception of pellet count. For numbers, lets go with 30% and 4/8 pellets each.

With the conversion they now both have they apply the exact same average number of procs. That number doesn't change no matter how many or how few pellets those two shotguns had. Before the two shotguns had a "small" but non-zero difference, which got larger as the status AND the base number of pellets increased (sure, the change would have been minimal, but still)

While not really that meaningful as a base, the difference would become larger as the +status% would increase. I get that in the old system there was a problem. But i don't think that this was one that needed changing.

Edit: Assuming i'm not really THAT terrible at maths, which i could very well be.

Actually, in the old system, with all other stats being equal, you barely gain any net procs per second at sub-100% status chance regardless of your base pellet count increasing.

I grabbed out the Tigris Prime row on my spreadsheet, tweaked pellet counts to 4 and 80 and the 30% base status chance column for procs-per-second only increases 4.3% between the two rows - since the changed pellet count is absorbed into the distribution of the base status chance.

The 340% status column (=100% per pellet, old style) sticks at precisely the pellet count in difference, 20 times the procs per second.

Going over to the new maths, if the status per pellet doesn't change then the procs per second remains static at 20x - no reduction in efficacy at higher pellet counts.

The pellet proportion and status-per-pellet proportion directly equate to the difference in expected procs per second regardless of the modified status chance in the new maths.

 

Conclusion: Unless they buffed the status chance significantly differently between two otherwise identical guns based on the number of pellets (which the charts have shown not to be the case) then pellet count did not factor into it. If anything, higher pellet guns only benefitted (where incapable of hitting 100% before).

1 minute ago, Andele3025 said:

Shotguns just got nerfed because DE nerfed by pellet count for no reason.

Disproven again!

[Traumtulpe]

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Orcus Imperium said:

my tigris prime's ability to kill hasn't changed

I believe you are fighting weak enemies that die to the initial shot. The big thing about the Tigris were it's slash procs - and those are pitiful compared to before.

[.durandle.]

5 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Technically, not much of a nerf for any non-innate multishot weapon. In fact the few non-"shotguns type" shotguns (cernos) got buffed by it. Shotguns just got nerfed because DE nerfed by pellet count for no reason.

basically what i have been complaining about regarding the nerf to shotguns but most weapons don't really care about the greater than 100% status without rivens anyway other than shotguns
 

6 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

True, tho in case of slash the true nerf was removing physical types weighting without buffing the physical type mods to account for it as slash damaging shields is still kills enemies fast, but now cant kill frames as fast.

for me it will kill frames about as fast as shields are still useless and the shield gating is actually a negative for me about 90% of the time as it just screws with rage/hunter adrenaline

8 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

OR just properly calculate status chance for shotguns so that once status shotguns are again shotguns instead of the vhek being about as effective at status as the tigris prime.

also the fact that the more pellets a shotgun has at base the harder this was a nerf to it
eg tigris prime previously the best varient for status now has the lowest status per pellet of the varients

[nslay]

The Vhek is more effective at status than the Tigris because it can reliably proc Hunter Munitions. Crit is a bandaid that works for a very small number of shotguns. The rest are rubbish now.

[TheLexiConArtist]

20 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I believe you are fighting weak enemies that die to the initial shot. The big thing about the Tigris were it's slash procs - and those are pitiful compared to before.

That's not really fair to attribute to the status chance changes though. The status chance is accountable for reducing the Tigris Prime's proc expectation to 38.4% (in a 340% build) but that's compounded with the physical de-weighting which means you only get 25% of that - for a result of a little under 10% slash proc expectation compared to before the patch.

27 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

OR just properly calculate status chance for shotguns so that once status shotguns are again shotguns instead of the vhek being about as effective at status as the tigris prime.

Just grabbing this to make a point of how broken the old maths were.

Sub-100%, Old system: Vaykor Hek status procs per second were ~1.82 times as frequent as the Tigris Prime.

340% Status VHek, 340% Status (100%per-pellet) Tigris, Old System: Vaykor Hek status procs per second were ~0.47 times as frequent as the Tigris Prime.

New System: Vaykor Hek status procs per second are equally ~1.87 times as frequent as the Tigris Prime regardless of modded status chance (assuming same mods on each).

 

The Vaykor Hek should always have been better than the Tigris Prime, because its fire rate and reload efficiency give it almost twice the pellet per second output and it did not have half the status chance.

 

(Note: These are calculated on naked stats, so discounting the Tigris' duplex-trigger and overriding manual-reload shenanigans. The Tigris' procs-per-second may be more equal to, or better than the Vaykor in practice due to this.)

Edited March 17, 2020 by TheLexiConArtist

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

That's not really fair to attribute to the status chance changes though. The status chance is accountable for reducing the Tigris Prime's proc expectation to 38.4% (in a 340% build) but that's compounded with the physical de-weighting which means you only get 25% of that - for a result of a little under 10% slash proc expectation compared to before the patch.

That would be a good point, except the loss in slash procs from weighting is made up for by the additional viral procs. The drop in performance is thus entirely due to the severe reduction in total status procs.

You don't mod a weapon with 11.3% status chance for damaging status effects, it would be highly ineffective.

[CopperBezel]

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

That would be a good point, except the loss in slash procs from weighting is made up for by the additional viral procs. The drop in performance is thus entirely due to the severe reduction in total status procs.

You don't mod a weapon with 11.3% status chance for damaging status effects, it would be highly ineffective.

Fanged Fusillade, New Shotgun Savvy, and the Viral dual stats would get you something like 20% instead of the old 50% of your procs going to Slash if I remember correctly from the last time I worked this out five pages ago or whatever, while also averaging one sad Viral proc per shot. So you can freely blame either depending on how you build. 

Edited March 17, 2020 by CopperBezel

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

So you can freely blame either depending on how you build.

Fair enough. Still, if you see a weapon with 11.3% status chance you don't think "That's gonna be great modded for gas!". Because it would not be good at all, and this applies to all damaging status effects.