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Warframe Revised: Kuva Lich Murmur Change & Fix Megathread


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Just run into Hijack + Thrall bug, as described in this archived thread:
 

My situation was almost same - parazoning a Thrall which was before truck. Truck hit me, black screen, then lagged state. Couldn't move / shoot / cast / use gear wheel / switch to operator. After death I was able to revive myself using X button, that's the thing that fixed it for me. 

Thanks for the changes btw, so far I like them 🙂 

 

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So they still haven't added an option to reduce the murmurs it takes or something to bail out with platinum? Yikes.

The more I read of it and hear about it (and experience it for myself), the more I'm beginning to wonder if the Kuva Lich system was an even bigger mistake than Railjack.

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While this update did (slightly) reduce the murmur grind by sharing gains from lich kills, murmur farming is still the most boring content i've ever played in Warframe. Less of it is definitely an improvement, but its still unrewarding and tedious. Mindlessly killing thralls is really not fun. I dont think this system can be salvaged just by tweaking numbers. It might become tolerable, but its never going to be good (maybe youll prove me wrong and im happy to eat my words if so).

If I were to suggest an alternative: You can attack your lich at any time, via a special exterminate node. The can otherwise invade in any other mission, similar to existing assassins, just more frequently. You get a full murmur every time you defeat your lich.

To kill them you need the correct requiem which is comprised of all 8 mods. The only thing that matters is the order. Murmurs grant hints as to the order ("Fass is next to Jahu." "Khra, Netra, and Vome are not next to each other." "Xata is before Khra." "The finale word is Fass." "Netra and Vome are the same distance from the oposite edges, such as 2nd place and 6th.") only dressed up in flowery language ("Netra and Vome mirror each other." > "Netra and Vome share equal faith to different causes"). Otherwise, you keep the same system of trial and error for testing the sequence. Get the right sequence and the lich is dead.

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Personally I like the kuva lich system as it is, EXCEPT the RNG when picking the weapon.

I understand that if player wants a gun A from list of ABCDEFGHetc it will cause player to play more hours and looks good in gameplay reports in statistics. I get that reports to 'efficient managers' and people who don't know how these numbers represent reality are important, but sometimes it looks ridiculous.

So let's say I play 5 hours by doing Saturn - Cassini and finally get a weapon I want.
Hooray, 5 hours of gameplay time is recorded. Obviously player is enjoying the game if they play that long non-stop and keep completing the missions.

Except it is one mission.
I am not feeling fun, I am not happy. I am tired and annoyed.

Now other thing.
I am playing Dark Souls.
I played for 5 hours. I died over 50 times and only progressed into ONE next area.
I am tired and happy as I have made a progress, I have achieved something that required effort on my part and thus my effort and skills I learned on the way helped me advance. Yay, progress.

Give us a challenge system that does NOT replace RNG, but adds to it.
For example, I have no gear and want to get something. I look at simple mission and do it. Hm, didn't get what I want.
I look at challenge and am baffled by how difficult it is.
Then I have a choice. Do I try and fail-fail-fail-win in a challenge or do I just chill and do RNG runs not getting what I want, but getting some nifty side things?
That is a CHOICE. If I chose RNG and get what I want in few runs, yay. I don't? Well, I chose wrong. It was my choice.


What can be done to make Lich spawn with weapon we want?
Hm. How about chain of 10 missions that require PERFECT completion? How about 20?
It will be tedious, frustrating and hard. Especially if there is a mix of all game modes in that row of missions. Especially if there are additional tasks given when doing those missions.
Did you fail even one single task in the row? START FROM THE BEGINNING.





For example. Do a spy mission with 0 alarms, capture target at last vault before entering it. Proceed to extraction where you'll fight miniboss or evade it (because sneaky-sneaky!).
Now do it again, but now you also need to do some other random addition to that mission. How about Eximus rush that are *2 lvl of mission? Or what if their levels are multiplied by 3?
How to make it harder? All enemies are Energy Leech Eximus.

It will be tedious to do that perfectly for SOME players. For others? The spy professionals that'll be walk in the park.
But then comes the next mission type, for example, Disruption.
No fails allowed. All units are bombards.
Atlas can stand and receive damage (no knockdown) as well as Rhino. But will they survive the constant onslaught?

This game is about shooting things. So let's shoot things! Lots of hard to kill things.

As in, supercharged Nightmare Mode.
This will be more difficult for beginners and the more warframes, weapons and gear player has, easier it will be. Therefore it won't be much of a challenge for experienced player.
But while it sounds bad that it won't be much of a challenge, it will still be at least a little challenging.

The missions can also be timed to capitalize on parkour and use of operator dash in right moments or just right use of sprint mods and being capable of navigating tiles by memory.
AI can be strategically placed based on generated tile in ambush mode so that if player is focusing on timer too much, they get killed.

There are mines in this game. Some are explosive, some are electrical. That is good.
If Ivara lands into a field of mines that were hidden behind some objects her shields and ENERGY will drain very quickly. Same with other frames that rely on energy.


The more challenging the challenge will be, the better.
People will complain. People will whine and ask to make it easier. For them there is always other option: go do RNG runs.

So when player completes the missions, then they are sent on a mission to create their lich with weapon they chose along the way.

 

 


_______________________________________
RNG is fun when 'everything I get is useful!'. It is not fun when 'well, another useless thing in my inventory'.


Now I'm off to go make pretty numbers for statistics report and hope I get Kuva weapon I want.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

Edit.
If you really want to make people cry during that challenge, make it so that players need to infiltrate cloning facility to alter the clone just a bit.
Make player follow the Lich in their growth starting from their first mission.
Make the Queens notice the exemplary soldier.
Make the player infiltrate Kuva Fortress to hack the plans for the weapon for the Lich, but make players spend resources there.
But... There is no option to pick a weapon! ONLY LIST OF SPENDABLE RESOURCES and Numbers for them.
Players will need to experiment to find out how much of what makes a weapon. Trial, error, trial, error, database will be made.

BUT FIRST PLAYERS TO FIND RIGHT COMBINATIONS WILL BE REMEMBERED!

Then the player need to follow future lich on missions against corpus, help them from shadows, make them grow more and more and more.
And each time player must feel that it was their achievement that their 'pet' has gained so much.
And then they KILL THE LARVA to make the Lich.

And when time comes. They fight the lich, the lich is what they made. To vanquish the lich is to leave them only as a small remark in the codex. Nothing more, nothing less.

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9 hours ago, rhes-sulay said:

Hi team, 

Thank you for your hard work. However, it appears that the reduction of exterminate nodes for kuva liches also brought back the issues of defection nodes appearing. I am unable to spawn kuva thralls on defection nodes which makes the node unobtainable, which then prevents the kuva influence from spreading across other planets in the system, which in turn prevents me from conquering the lich at all. The current node affected for me is Memphis, Phobos. 

I have not read extensively through this topic so I am unsure if I am the only one affected. I hope you keep an eye on this issue and have it resolved soon. Thank you!

Can confirm this one, and would echo a "fix please, this shouldn't take y'all long" - the game now (again) tries to spawn kuva lich defection missions, which spawns only infested enemies and defectors, which doesn't make for a useful lich mission - it plays as a standard defection mission at base level 90 (I heard rumors of defectors turning into thralls but was unable to reproduce that in my attempts)

What's worse is that even if you succeed the mission (some rescues and extraction), that doesn't seem to count for purging lich influence from the node. This prevents the usual "If you have no more lich influence nodes, lich gets a random planet" failsafe - in effect, you can get stuck, where your only lich influence node is defection, which you can neither use to spawn a lich nor clear of influence.

Ultimately, this soft locks an account out of the kuva lich mechanic entirely - if your last influenced node is defection, you're stuck - no active lich cancelling/trading yet, and no way to progress influence. We tried earlier to work around this by squadding up with people who had working liches on the same planet, but still couldn't get the problem lich to spawn in a few hours of missions - not sure why.

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Not sure if its a bug or not but it seems like more than 1 lich cannot spawn in a mission unlike before where I've seen 4 liches spawn in one mission and now only ever seeing 1 spawn in a mission at a time

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Please increase the amount of murmur or revered back the reduce of ext or shared murmur drop, reduce the chance for lich ext mission is just not fun anymore, i rather played ext mission a hundred time was because i dont have high expectation due to how simple it was, now you giving me more spy and rescue for what exactly? what the reason of us for steal the data, and why do we need to save the hostage? there no value no reason

My sort of solution was the make each gamemode more rewarding and purposes

- Spy , excavation , capture and rescue mission = there will be 2 type of reward

1. it will trigger a special mission that show you you a secret hideout of with the high concentration of murmur 

2. it will trigger a message that will give you a special relics that is highly valuable to your kuva lich known as a Space McGuffin 

- Defense mission = just your normal defense but with a added panel that allow you to add Space McGuffin (stack to 4 increase difficulty, waves and more mobs) will trigger 1 life defense mode, all enemies will gain increase movement speed, chance of murmur spawn, 1 or 2 ghost lich will spawn trying to kill you

<<Ghost lich referred to those that you killed came back to beat the S#&amp;&#036; out of you again>>

- Survival,sabotage Hijack and Ext mission = there will be spray, random items across the map as part of their occupation that buff mobs, while killing enemies, we can sabotage by destroying and griefing causes to further anger the lich, destroyed a certain amount will turn 10 - 20 mobs into 10 - 20 murmur in a given time at the same time it will spawn a tomb, placing the Space McGuffin will trigger 1 life survival mode,all enemies will gain increase movement speed, chance of murmur spawn, 1 or 2 ghost lich will spawn trying to kill you within the 10 min, all player dead will destroyed the tomb, giving you nothing, if survived, you will get handsome rewards like resources, credits, etc

not my best idea but my point is, please make those gamemode more worth and enjoyable to play, there no reason for me to save a hostage, steal data, sabotage, excavate lost items, because there no reason to 😕

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My biggest nitpick is on why is it we cannot get a numerical value on how many mummers do we need per requiem clue? For some people it becomes really obscure how many is actually needed and what their progress is. It often gives a sense of tedium and people tend to just put off doing the missions and even as far as leaving the liches alone in level one to contain the inconvenience of them stealing your loot. 

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With this change it is very much crucial to play with randoms and not with your friends because your friends may not have their lich on the same planet as you , when i play with my friends my lich wont get angry at all = takes longer to spawn even if u have all the murmurs. I would suggest to add a bossfight map guranteed on a planet if you have all the murmurs filled up. With this change it will be a less painful grind to wait for the RNG spawn.

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Converted liches : Converted Liches are defenetly better but still not worth to convert them . A very very easy solution would be : Selecting a converted lich - you can put a lich beacon into your gear and you can always summon that lich with a 4-5 min cooldown . Maybe you could fuse kuva weapons that you dont need into your selected lich to make him / her stronger . Or simply mod them like warframe : Range would affect his / her skill radius , duration ofc the duration of the skills , Effy will make him / her cast more skills etc .

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I know you (DE) were considering it but ultimately decided against it for now, but you're still going to want to add a way for players to abandon a Lich. My cousin jumped on after a while away from the game to try the Lich system a month or so ago, the Lich quickly got to level five and now he is completely outclassed by the enemies in those nodes (and they've spread through a large part of his star chart), he doesn't have the time to grind to get on par with those enemies so he has just quit the game. He's tried going back a few times but just walks away in frustration every time. The Lich system is bad for players like him and it doesn't have an especially high barrier to entry. My suggestion to that end, the prerequisite should be completion of The Sacrifice quest, not The War Within.  

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- Grind feels a little too long.

- Grouping to complete feels punishing since it doesn't enrage your lich unless they happen to be on the same lich controlled planet. Less of a problem for pugs but then its a bet on whether you get teammates especially for the mission types that really benefit from it (e.g. Interception).

- When you valence transfer it takes the element of the donating weapon. It's great because it allows you agency in choosing what element you want. The bad of it is, if you first roll the element you want and you want to level up that weapon you can't shoot for other ephemeras while trying to increase the weapon's elemental damage bonus because you'll get the element of a weapon you don't want. To be fair, I'm not sure how to fix this without taking away the positives but it isn't ideal.

Edit: - It would be nice to be able to abandon a lich. After grinding the thralls its reflex to execute them. When you are trying to choose a weapon it's kind of hard to remember to look for the weapon first; especially if, you were grinding your lich intensely. I get wanting to prevent making targeting ephemeras too easy though.

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Le 02/03/2020 à 19:06, [DE]Bear a dit :
  • Decreased the chances of Kuva Lich controlled sectors forcing an Exterminate situation to allow for more gamemode chances. 

Keeping the spy mission on Lua is perhaps a little too much, mostly when lich just spawned and missions choices are very limited.

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- With more than 50 liches downed I really appreciate the ability to filter just vanquished or just converted liches in the history.

 

- Shared murmurs from downing a Lich is fantastic. In reality on average it probably only speeds up progress 10%-20%, but it feels significantly faster by far.

** If it is not too hard to add I would love to see other squad members also gain murmurs from a Lich conversion/vanquish.

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I'd love to see liches be more naturally and organically integrated into the game, and become more unique individually. Maybe add a rare chance for liches to spawn like death squads coming after you in normal missions, allow larvlings to spawn in more places and become liches more naturally in some cases, and let multiple liches be active at once, even if just in the background.

Of course, alot of this won't be very interesting until more than two sets of voice lines/personality and more than a hand full of ability sets are added. Right now, none of the liches feel very unique after the first few, and it adds to the high monotony of lich hunting, running completely counter to the idea of kuva liches being personal, unique villains for us.

For the idea of liches being long lasting foes, eventually getting powerful enough to command ships in railjack, I'd like to see the ability to kill liches and take their weapon as normal, but have them come back again at level 6+ with a more powerful weapon and better gear, and become as powerful as what was teased for the system initially. Perhaps at level 10 or higher, they can become a clan objective to take down, and everyone who takes part in the hunt at that point can then claim kuva/a weapon/a unique railjack avionic or weapon at the crimson branch, once the super-lich commander has been defeated.

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Converting liches is a little disappointing. Although fun to have a helper, most of them are not great at support, and the weapon damage is very weak compared to spectres (and what we make of them). Give us a way of enhancing them, and/or give them a team shared effect, like accuracy, firerate bonus etc.

Here's an idea that could be nice skill prize, and potentially reduce the grind a little; When guessing requiems initially, and if ranked with at least one murmur tier - when you down/attempt a lich, you get a "ping" telling you if you have any correct requiem, just in the wrong place.

The way the known requiems continue to swap about in the UI when you start to know the order is pointless.

Echoing the sentiments of more "organic" integration with normal Warframe missions: Right now, I really can't think of anything else to do for liches except to speedrun Adaro over and over until I see something I want.

 

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Am 10.3.2020 um 20:39 schrieb Lightning_Bloom:

see liches be more naturally and organically integrated into the game

Good luck with that, as much i love this game and DE but lately they fail to make any connection at all to anything they bring in the game. Everything feels disconnected and shortly after gets dropped and or revisited only after years, Codex, Simaris, Operator, Archwing, etc. Same will go for Railjack and the Lichs surely.

I want them to evolve and succed but by god those latest updates really make me doubt DE and there way of thinking, free game or not, we can and should critize them for bad things.

Yet most feedback seemingly gets ignored and PC as beta testers have to suffer first despite able ot put input and suggestions up before Updates hit.

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Let's see, where do i even start. 

Let me say this first, a lot of these, I am not sure if community would agree with me, but my personal experience says that these are the main problems with liches at the moment, 

1) First off, The kuva liches takes way too much grind to kill them and I think everyone addressed that enough. (And pls don't even think that adding back the murmur share on failed lich takedown helped much at all, its like that band aid to stop a huge hole of water leakage). Why did you guys add multiple folds of rng here is beyond me. Now the best thing is everyone in public squad prays that a lich pops up. First layer of RNG is when matchmaking and praying that the other people who joins actually has a high rage meter for lich, Second layer of RNG is the rage meter itself. Due to different player having different starting locations of lich and the rage not being shared, we can't even play together with friends unless we are lucky to have a common node or one player is sacrificing his/her lich rage progress just to get some murmur.  

2) They said that kuva liches were meant to be farmed for a ling time so I understand the time it takes to kill them. Would It break the system if Kuva liches were actually more rewarding? Why not add,,lets see,around 10K kuva per kill/convert. that would act as an incentive to actually do them.

3)Lich nodes, simply horrible. For many reasons.   i) Murmur progress, either increase the larva spawns by around double per node or decrease murmur farm. Because as is, the nodes are feeling left out.  ii) I have no idea who had the smart idea to have more spy nodes instead of exterminate that were faster(even tho most community was clear that they hated the lich grind) atleast add some goodies so that people actually play those nodes more often? like for example, if anyone does 1 of the 3 vault they get 3 or 5 bonus murmur progress. people would actually do those more if they were more rewarding. iii) Another very important note, the nodes feel critically unrewarding. Just to get murmurs and facing high level enemies of tedious grind is a problem, Why not add a mission completion cache of like 500/750/1000 kuva at the end of each missions and buff the credist we get to atleast 3-4 times? We are fighting in lich territory for God's sake, whats the point of getting some few thousand credits after a successful completion.

4)Kuva weapons need a balance check, Some weapons are good, some are extremely useless, like kuva karak feels so underpowered. 

5)The whole point of converting the Kuva liches was to have a Powerful ally. Please don't even think that buffing the damage to 5 times and enabling proper abilities helped much. They are still almost useless and tickle the enemies at best. Why not make them share atleast 10% of the warframes equipped weapon dps? That wouldn't make them ultra strong and obliterate the entire map, instead make them a little more useful than the joke it is now. OR heck, let us customize them, it would actually add more fun and build play styles. Incase you guys didn't figure out yet, most tenno incl me are converting them so that we can sell them to player who needs the weapon for transfusion or ephemeras or both or probably collecting them or wanna use them  for command intrinsic when it comes. . Because I will state this again, currently they are not even a powerful ally. This defeats the purpose of conversion completely. 

6)Instead of making them randomly appear in missions unreliably, let them spawn with us. They would stay till their health runs out and they die. We didn't go through all the grind to have them spawn using RNG again. We griinded for an Ally, not some joke who spawns during extraction (personally happened to me once in a void interception sortie)

 

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Alright, yeah, you fixed the problem with the sharing of Lich Stabbing murmur by rolling it back to how it was before you messed it up, fantastic job.

If only you'd also reduce the murmur required from the "average 180 total" to maybe a straight 100 total? Just to save some of the grind and avoid being burned out of the game entirely and quitting.

And while you're at it, also reduce the Forma required to max Kuva Weapon from 5 to 2 (at 5 levels added per forma) for the same reason as above. It was cute when Paracesis did it, it's an insult when a whole series of 16 (and still growing) weapons does it.

Also, if you still have free time, add some more ways to get murmur. Like, Kuva Afflicted consoles in Lich-controlled nodes that we can hack to get some murmur. Or better yet: an extra item drop from killed Thralls that we can manually use to get some Murmur on the current Lich outside of missions, to make it worth sticking around stabbing more Thralls with friends when your own rune clues are already complete.

There's PLENTY of more things, but for now I'll leave it at that.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Zoh_Veldae:

Alright, yeah, you fixed the problem with the sharing of Lich Stabbing murmur by rolling it back to how it was before you messed it up, fantastic job.

If only you'd also reduce the murmur required from the "average 180 total" to maybe a straight 100 total? Just to save some of the grind and avoid being burned out of the game entirely and quitting.

And while you're at it, also reduce the Forma required to max Kuva Weapon from 5 to 2 (at 5 levels added per forma) for the same reason as above. It was cute when Paracesis did it, it's an insult when a whole series of 16 (and still growing) weapons does it.

Also, if you still have free time, add some more ways to get murmur. Like, Kuva Afflicted consoles in Lich-controlled nodes that we can hack to get some murmur. Or better yet: an extra item drop from killed Thralls that we can manually use to get some Murmur on the current Lich outside of missions, to make it worth sticking around stabbing more Thralls with friends when your own rune clues are already complete.

There's PLENTY of more things, but for now I'll leave it at that.

Can only agree to all this, i still say objectives should give murmur as well because what sense does it make if the lich "controls" a planet apperently but not uses any of it like hacked data, cargo transfers, resource caches, etc.

While we at it DE, could you finally havea look at THIS HERE.

It is not funny anmore how broken it can get at times, i like the game and you but come on DE, you are the laughing stock by now again, you had so much potential but drop it with random content drops seemingly, not knwoign what game you want to be, a looter shooter? Space shooter? Action RPG like Shadow of Mordor with those Lichs?

De please find a identity again, you loosing your current one and your image.

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On 2020-03-05 at 11:36 AM, Ecclessia said:

Exterminate is default and most "fitted" gamemode for lich/thralls hunting, as it both requres not going way too fast, so lich and thralls could spawn, but also gives freeflow encountering of thralls. Other gamemodes either too fast (capture, sabotage), or has some objects, which could be damaged by lich up to mission fail (such as mobile defence), so in first type of situations in public games thralls almost don't spawn comparing to exterminate, while second type of missions are usually ignored. Was it really good idea to lower amount of exterminate?

I agree completely, I like doing the exterminate mission for lich. It feels the most appropriate mission type.

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I added another suggestion on how to change the weapon designation process (Larvling RNG).

 

Zitat

Weapon determination:

  • It was annoying as hell to pray to RNG to get the weapon the you want
  • With this hotfix the only thing that changed is that i get a preview of the RNG - you didnt remove the annoying part
  • if i want a certain weapon i still have to pray to RNG that i am allowed to get a certain weapon and might have to run a stupid amount of meaningless missions to get there

Possible fix:

  • i suggested it a few times: just let us actively chose the weapon the Lich/Larvling will carry. Whats wrong with that?
  • Just like our Warframes determine the element of the weapon - the weapon we used to kill the larvling determines the weapon itself.
  1. is there an existing weapon of a kuva-variant (normal Kraken for example)? Kill the Larvling with Kraken to get Kuva Kraken.
  2. want the Archgun? Kill it with an Archgun.
  3. Want the Melee-Weapon? Kill it with a Melee Weapon.

.

Edit: different possible fix:

  • instead of making the carried weapon determine the kuva weapon, make the Starchart map the factor choosing the weapon
  • so each Kuva Weapon has one or more designated Starchart maps to it
  • this means you can farm whatever weapon in a reliable way and focus on what is important for you instead of having to run random missions again and again for possibly hours just to get the weapon you want (keep in mind, you still have to go through the whole murmur process afterwards...all you have achieved so far is to start the farming process)
  •  

 

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When it comes to Lichs, the player has three "competing" systems to work for: Requiem Mods, Murmurs AND 5 Forma... (And remember, you delivered 16 weapons AND Ephemeras). So, in order to make this "digestable" (not to say pleasant for the player) IMO you need/should remove ONE, but preferably, TWO of these system.

I could write a wall of text, but I already made a video about it. So I'll share that here, if anyone cares to look:

 

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So, When are we going to get the option to hunt down our lich in our RJ and stab it? This was a shown feature and i feel like if you have the kill code or the lich is level 5 you should be able to run in and force a stab. This suggestion solves all the reasonable complaints as far as liches go. 

-reduces the grind but only if you have the guns/frames/gear to actually beat a lvl 5 lich. 

-Makes RJ actually useful and tied to the greater game at large instead of being an island. 

-Huge reduction in RNG grind as far as having to farm multiple missions when you inevitably get the 25.0% weapon. (not even going into how the weapons are biased to spawn lower percents.) 

-RJ missions are kinda hard and your friends can come with you and get that murmur farm going as well as their toes in the "water" of RJ 

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On 2020-03-06 at 9:54 PM, rhes-sulay said:

Hi team, 

Thank you for your hard work. However, it appears that the reduction of exterminate nodes for kuva liches also brought back the issues of defection nodes appearing. I am unable to spawn kuva thralls on defection nodes which makes the node unobtainable, which then prevents the kuva influence from spreading across other planets in the system, which in turn prevents me from conquering the lich at all. The current node affected for me is Memphis, Phobos. 

I have not read extensively through this topic so I am unsure if I am the only one affected. I hope you keep an eye on this issue and have it resolved soon. Thank you!

This is fixed on today's patch. Thanks DE!

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