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About the Proposed Infested Damage Increase


Grey_Star_Rival_Defender
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Yes shields are getting damage reduction, yes shield gating is becoming a thing. But with Tenno health types becoming neutral to damage, on any high armor frame Infested slash damage is going to already receive a net increase. Infested toxin / gas damage is still going to ignore high shield frames.

So does Infested damage really need to get increased?

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I don't know about you, but I've never seen the Infested as anything but the trash faction. I couldn't understand when I first started playing Warframe why the creepy space zombies that got special Dark Sector missions with bonus experience were universally weaker than enemies of either of the other faction at the same level. As of now at MR 19, I still think of Infested enemies as a goopy mass of yuck to clean out with no particular threat involved. Toxic Ancients can occasionally deal an absurd amount of damage if they're in whispering distance, and Infested have a slightly higher proportion of energy eximuses than other factions, which means they can briefly shut you down. If the changes can make Infested enemies a threat, I'm all for it. 

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Infested are honestly the weakest faction, only surpassing corpus because they have more mob types.

They are easily avoidable. So if they ever reach you (which shouldn't happen if you're paying attention), they'll just deal more damage. 

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3 minutes ago, Baterial said:

don't one infested eximus have instant kill aura?

If you get too close to a Toxic Ancient, it lets loose so much toxin damage it would kill any frame unless they were an immortal like Rhino, Nidus, or Inaros.

It got patched last year I think so it the attack will occur after the warning animation instead of before it.

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vor 17 Minuten schrieb Baterial:

don't one infested eximus have instant kill aura?

Sometimes Ancients do a "Vomit" attack dealing massive toxic damage with a tiny range and sometimes instakill frames (seems to deal less damage now then it used to do). 

It's not telegraphed very good and there isn't much of an graphical effect to it either. 

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I'd rather see thier speed increased.  That combined with indirect buff may make them more of a threat.  When I play infested defence, I use a speed Nova.  When they are that fast, they will get in a hit or two, but the molecular prime makes them and buddies explode.  

Point being, if they were faster, they would hit more.  That combined with indirect buff to slash / toxin may be enough.  

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I think that damage alone isn't that strong kind of buff, since their main "domain" is to deny your damage. And the main damage dealers are Chargers and Ospreys. The Infested's weakness is compensated by their number, they give you less XP when killed compared to any other faction. However, their weakness is just a temporal thing. Given that endless modes increase Eximi spawn rate when you stay for long, the faction will eventually be consisting of something like 85% Eximi and 15% regular mobs and it just becomes a force to be reckoned with. At really high levels, if the team isn't prepared or doesn't have means to deny their auras, they can simply steamroll you. And if you're fighting them in confined areas, it'll be a clusterf- of auras, effects and infested meat. To the point when it will be nearly impossible to take out the "buffers" first because you won't be able to distinguish them.

REGULAR (most of)

  • A regular Ancient Disruptor heavily reduces effectiviness and strength of powers (by 90%) and their CC (by 75%) while buffing nearby infested with an energy drain effect on hit that scales off their level and protective aura. Multiple auras stack.
  • A regular Ancient Healer provides a 90% DR to nearby infested (but not the other Ancients) as well as complete knockdown and status resist.
  • A regular Toxic Ancient buffs nearby infested with Toxin damage AND 100% Toxin and 80% Gas resistance while also dealing a helluva damage with Toxic roar attack when getting close which also scales off the Ancient's level.

Ancients' grappling hook is also being affected by scaling and can even cause Slash procs.

  • A regular Swarm Mutalist MOA fires swarms that buff other infested by 700 Ferrite armor which also scales up on higher levels.
  • A regular Tar-Mutalist MOA fires corrosive puddles that slow you down, have a high DoT and Corrosive procs along with a big HP pool and pretty long lifespan (10s)
Quote

The 700 armor granted by the swarms is the second highest in the game, after the Zeplen. It can easily scale to absurd damage reduction at high levels.

Both MOA types are very agile, can perform Shockwave attacks and jump aside when being targeted / aimed at.

  • Mutalist Osprey releases a Toxin-based cloud that can also inflict an 8s Toxin DoT.
  • Charger has probably the highest damage of all Infested, it can jump on target from like 10m and even knock it down. If it can't reach the target it starts spitting out the blobs that also have a pretty high damage.

EXIMI

  • Parasitic Eximus (can be all Infested mobs): aside energy drain they also have 300% of their base health and an innate resistance of 50% to all damage types, added additively from their health and armor types.
  • Caustic Eximus (Ancients, MOA and Boiler) units project a fire resistance aura to their nearby allies, which nullifies all Heat damage; this aura also extends to combined elemental damage and will nullify the Heat damage of combined types utilizing it. Such type also has an innate resistance of 50% to all damage types, additive to their health and armor types.
  • Sanguine Eximi (Ancients, MOA, Boiler and Charger) have 300% of their base health.
  • Venomous Eximi (Ancients, MOA and Boiler): project a toxin resistance aura to their nearby allies, which nullifies all Toxin damage, this aura also extends to combined elemental damage and will nullify the Toxin damage of said combined type.

They are capable of delivering Toxin attacks towards their enemies and also have the ability to emit a potent toxin aura in a 10 meter range. When inflicted, an 8s Toxin proc will persist and deal moderate damage over time, depending on the level of the enemy which inflicted the proc. Such type also has an innate resistance of 50% to all damage types, added additively from their health type and armor type.

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In a perfect world, it'd be nice to see all of these auras get a rework to be more visible and more impactful. As it stands, we don't notice any of these resistance effects, we just notice that occasionally an enemy will be slightly less squishy than usual. (I can't get over how weird the Infested's squishiness really is in concert with the visuals, considering Chargers have Grineer ferrite armor on but don't get it mechanically.)

I do like the idea of the speed boost, though, preferably with new animations to sell it. And the suggestion I've seen that Chargers should be able to run on walls. 

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3 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

Yes shields are getting damage reduction, yes shield gating is becoming a thing. But with Tenno health types becoming neutral to damage, on any high armor frame Infested slash damage is going to already receive a net increase. Infested toxin / gas damage is still going to ignore high shield frames.

So does Infested damage really need to get increased?

Infested are like the Reapers in ME3, they were a threat for about 6 months with only Banshee and Brute posing actually any kind of threat below platinum, and when retaliation was introduced, instead of getting a buff they got miscellaneous changes to damage types, and with the reintroduction of the Collectors became literally obsolete except as introductory level fodder and were the xp grinding faction of choice.

The initial joke faction of the game was Cerberus, with only Phantom providing any kind of threat, but by Retaliation were the second strongest faction.

The Infested were the premier threat in the first stages of WF, with level 60 Infested being considered the Bar for testing an "infinite challenge" build, if you could make it against Infested defense at level 60 and protect the target, your build and weapons were good enough to tackle anything in the game.

The only threats in the Infested roster now are Toxic Ancient Eximus and Sapping Radiation Ancient Eximus. and gas-blaster over level 100 or so, and the corpus have fully evolved into the defacto NO FUN POLICE, complete with continual fire weapons armed with slash and toxin.

Sound familiar?

The infested need a complete rework to become a threat again.

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18 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

But with Tenno health types becoming neutral to damage, on any high armor frame Infested slash damage is going to already receive a net increase.

Slash gets a +25% against Tenno health, but -15% against armor. With nuteral health/armor we will receive less Slash damage.

18 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

Infested toxin / gas damage is still going to ignore high shield frames.

Toxin gets a +50% bonus against Tenno health and additional +25% against armor (this interaction actually made low armor Frames even more vulnerable to Toxin). Neutral health/armor against Toxin will be a huge survivability buff.

 

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3 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Slash gets a +25% against Tenno health, but -15% against armor. With nuteral health/armor we will receive less Slash damage.

Toxin gets a +50% bonus against Tenno health and additional +25% against armor (this interaction actually made low armor Frames even more vulnerable to Toxin). Neutral health/armor against Toxin will be a huge survivability buff.

 

We will be receiving more slash damage on high armor frames because the slash damage penalty for armor is both a -15% damage reduction, and it also multiplies armor by 15% for purposes of reducing that slash damage. Neutral health means slash damage on high armored frames won’t benefit from the armor multiplier.

I’m well aware of toxin’s damage multipliers being neutralized making armor tank frames far stronger. But any toxin damage will still destroy any high shield frames that attempt to shield tank after the update.

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23 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

Yes shields are getting damage reduction, yes shield gating is becoming a thing. But with Tenno health types becoming neutral to damage, on any high armor frame Infested slash damage is going to already receive a net increase. Infested toxin / gas damage is still going to ignore high shield frames.

Any high-armour Warframe is unlikely to notice the change. Rhino's Iron Skin is already untyped. Do you see the Infested ripping through it faster than you'd expect? Because the same is going to apply to your average Inaros, Atlas, Nidus, Wukong, etc.

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Just now, Steel_Rook said:

Any high-armour Warframe is unlikely to notice the change. Rhino's Iron Skin is already untyped. Do you see the Infested ripping through it faster than you'd expect? Because the same is going to apply to your average Inaros, Atlas, Nidus, Wukong, etc.

Last I checked Rhino’s Iron Skin uses ferrite armor as it’s health type, but I don’t care about Rhino beyond MR.

I imagine that frames like Wukong would notice their health being depleted at a faster rate then before.

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25 minutes ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

We will be receiving more slash damage on high armor frames because the slash damage penalty for armor is both a -15% damage reduction, and it also multiplies armor by 15% for purposes of reducing that slash damage. Neutral health means slash damage on high armored frames won’t benefit from the armor multiplier.

More damage on the main hit, but the proc damages shields now, and armor class modifiers are less important for players with 600 armor than enemies with thousands. The reality is that we only notice Slash when it's a proc on a shield frame, and that problem is going away. Making the initial hit only equal to other damage types is just not going to be a meaningful problem.

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4 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

More damage on the main hit, but the proc damages shields now, and armor class modifiers are less important for players with 600 armor than enemies with thousands. The reality is that we only notice Slash when it's a proc on a shield frame, and that problem is going away. Making the initial hit only equal to other damage types is just not going to be a meaningful problem.

The armor damage modifiers are rather important to players with 600 armor actually. An armor tank currently reduces a lot more damage from Infested chargers compared to Corpus techs with their puncture based Supras.

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2 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

We will be receiving more slash damage on high armor frames because the slash damage penalty for armor is both a -15% damage reduction, and it also multiplies armor by 15% for purposes of reducing that slash damage. Neutral health means slash damage on high armored frames won’t benefit from the armor multiplier.

But we will lose the 25% amplifier from flesh along the way. High armor Frames will hardly notice the difference, but squishy ones will benefit from it.

2 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

I’m well aware of toxin’s damage multipliers being neutralized making armor tank frames far stronger. But any toxin damage will still destroy any high shield frames that attempt to shield tank after the update.

While shields will be penetratee by toxin, we will lose 50% amplifier from health and another 25% from armor. Hence, shield based Frames will be far more resilient against toxin. Not to mention that there are not many toxin damage types in the first place.
On the sidenote, I find the idea of different builds having their natural counters and be aware of those interesting.

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13 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

But we will lose the 25% amplifier from flesh along the way. High armor Frames will hardly notice the difference, but squishy ones will benefit from it.

While shields will be penetratee by toxin, we will lose 50% amplifier from health and another 25% from armor. Hence, shield based Frames will be far more resilient against toxin. Not to mention that there are not many toxin damage types in the first place.
On the sidenote, I find the idea of different builds having their natural counters and be aware of those interesting.

The health multiplier doesn’t matter for high armor frames when the extra armor reduction would handle the 25% weakness. So high armor frames will still see an effect. And shield frames will still be more resilient, but shield frames don’t have the health amounts to survive toxin still.

Different builds, different natural counters, sure, whatever. Doesn’t change my thoughts on increased Infested damage.

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The only thing I'm concerned about with infested is the aura's from ancients... they could already one shot frames at higher levels so hopefully DE have remembered this and given this a balance pass.  Other than that infested were never really an issue to deal with in all honesty.

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3 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

I imagine that frames like Wukong would notice their health being depleted at a faster rate then before.

Unsure. Currently, Flesh takes 25% more damage from Slash but Ferrite takes 15% less and operates with 15% more armour. Currently, a 100-damage pure Slash hit to a 600-armour Warframe would deal 100*(1 + 0.25 - 0.15)*(1 - (600*(1 + 0.15))/(300 + 600*(1 + 0.15))) = ~‭33 damage. If Warframes get their own health types with no strengths and weaknesses, then that damage would instead be 100*(1 - 600*(300+600)) = ~33%. Yes, I checked the numbers a few times, they all come down to taking 1/3 of all damage, either way. While Warframes would lose their resistance to Slash damage from Ferrite, they're also going to lose their vulnerability to Slash from Flesh.

Moreover, Flesh takes 50% more damage from Toxin and Ferrite takes 25% more damage from Toxin with 25% less armour. Even assuming what I've listed above doesn't hold true for all armour values, Warframes are still going to be SUBSTANTIALLY less vulnerable to Toxin, which I remind you will still go through shields. My experience with the Infested on both high-armour and low-armour Warframes is that Mutalist Osprey Toxin clouds are a fare more frequent source of unexpected death than actual enemy melee damage.

Mind you, I'm absolutely not a fan of increasing Infested damage for the simple fact that it's an uncreative way to try and "balance" them. I was much more interested in looking for ways to give them constant health regeneration. However, I don't think the new Warframe health types are going to be a substantial deciding factor either way.

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