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Petition to make Harkonar Scope an exilus mod


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1 hour ago, Skaleek said:

Melee doesnt have exilus slots, probably the main reason it isn't an exilus mod.

Hence why I said "wouldn't be" instead of "isn't." since melee weapons are supposed to be getting exilus slots at some point, and I doubt body count will be one. 

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4 hours ago, Miser_able said:

It affects dps so I doubt it. Same reason body count wouldn't be. 

There are a bunch of exilus mods that affect DPS... reload speed and magazine size much...? x'D

 

Harkonar Scope is a quality of life thing more than anything, I would never add it into a build just expecting extra DPS.

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12 minutes ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

There are a bunch of exilus mods that affect DPS... reload speed and magazine size much...? x'D

 

Harkonar Scope is a quality of life thing more than anything, I would never add it into a build just expecting extra DPS.

Reload speed and magazine size aren't exilus. Weapon exilus mods are ammo max, ammo mutation, zoom, recoil, accuracy, silence, reload while holstered, holster speed, and projectile flight speed. 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Exilus_Weapon_Mods

Edited by Miser_able
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1 minute ago, Miser_able said:

Reload speed and magazine size aren't exilus. Weapon exilus mods are ammo max, ammo mutation, zoom, recoil, accuracy, silence, reload while holstered, holster speed, and projectile flight speed. 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Exilus_Weapon_Mods

I could have sworn the magazine size mod for rifles had the wexilus icon on it, but I guess either I'm mistaken or it was a weird graphics bug. My bad.

That being said Projectile Flight Speed is a straight damage buff... Accuracy and recoil are less impactful straight damage buffs... And ammo mutation is an indirect damage buff for low efficiency weapons...

 

Like literally the only reason you put Projectile Speed on Catchmoon now is for the damage buff...

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Just now, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

That being said Projectile Flight Speed is a straight damage buff... Accuracy and recoil are less impactful straight damage buffs... And ammo mutation is an indirect damage buff for low efficiency weapons...

none of these are true. at all. projectile speed gives more range, not damage. accuracy and recoil does not increase your damage, it makes weapons easier to use and ammo mutation is also the same deal.

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Just now, Zeclem said:

none of these are true. at all. projectile speed gives more range, not damage. accuracy and recoil does not increase your damage, it makes weapons easier to use and ammo mutation is also the same deal.

Projectile Speed extends damage falloff. Which strictly increases damage in a large part of the projectile path...

 

Accuracy and recoil on rapid fire weapons affect how many of your projectiles fall on target which absolutely does affect how much sustained damage you do...

 

Ammo mutation means you more consistently have ammo, which for weapons with a constrained ammo pool means you can fire them *significantly* more consistently, putting out more sustained damage.

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It technically doesn't increase dps but instead makes it easier to maintain the dps of snipers. It feels like a sort of a grey area and the mod doesn't offer an impactful enough difference to matter if it was an Exilus or not. So why not I guess, it's not like any of the other Exilus mods really matter besides Vigilante Supplies (seriously why is it still an Exilus mod) anyways.

But as for the comparison of the mod to combo duration for melee weapons I feel the melee variants shouldn't be Exilus mods. Because of the interactions between Weeping Wounds, Bloodrush, and Heavy Attacks the combo count for melees is far more impactful than on Snipers. If Snipers were to get combo related mods then I'd say Harkonar then can't justify an Exilus tag.

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Just now, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

Projectile Speed extends damage falloff. Which strictly increases damage in a large part of the projectile path...

which means it increases its effective range, which for vast majority of the weapons already long enough to cover most of the game without any kind of damage faloff. 

Just now, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

Accuracy and recoil on rapid fire weapons affect how many of your projectiles fall on target which absolutely does affect how much sustained damage you do...

which is an indirect (and negligible) damage increase at best through making the gun easier to use.

Just now, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

Ammo mutation means you more consistently have ammo, which for weapons with a constrained ammo pool means you can fire them *significantly* more consistently, putting out more sustained damage.

again, thats not a damage buff. 

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3 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

which means it increases its effective range, which for vast majority of the weapons already long enough to cover most of the game without any kind of damage faloff. 

Again, with the new nerfs to the catchmoon it can frequently be the difference between doing 10% of it's possible damage or 100% of it's possible damage on a hit. That is an increase of 10x to damage. In other words a damage buff...

3 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

which is an indirect (and negligible) damage increase at best through making the gun easier to use.

again, thats not a damage buff. 

Sure if you want to call that indirect fine. You admit yourself there that it increases damage if only slightly.

 

What do you call an increase in damage if not a damage buff?

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37 minutes ago, trst said:

It technically doesn't increase dps but instead makes it easier to maintain the dps of snipers

It increases the window duration of the various scope buffs from 2 seconds to 12. Except for the Lanka, which goes from 6 to 18

Yes, it absolutely increases sniper dps, and no, it's not in a small way.

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7 minutes ago, XRosenkreuz said:

It increases the window duration of the various scope buffs from 2 seconds to 12. Except for the Lanka, which goes from 6 to 18

Yes, it absolutely increases sniper dps, and no, it's not in a small way.

Actually I just double checked the mechanic and the mod is more worthless than I remembered. Snipers don't lose every stack when the window expires and instead only lose one stack at a time, all Harkonar does is extend the window from losing 1 stack per 2 seconds to 1 stack per 14 seconds. Except Harkonar stops working if you don't zoom back in after some period of time, after which the stacks begin to fall off at the default rate.

This really isn't increasing dps at all and is more similar to ammo mutation if anything. However if the mod granted more stacks per shot like Multishot does then it would be increasing dps. But either way I still (more so now) think that the mod isn't worth slotting even if it was an Exilus.

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5 hours ago, Zeclem said:

which means it increases its effective range, which for vast majority of the weapons already long enough to cover most of the game without any kind of damage faloff. 

which is an indirect (and negligible) damage increase at best through making the gun easier to use.

again, thats not a damage buff. 

projectile speed extends the damage at specific range, making it a damage increase compared to no mod.
also, vigilante supplies exists.

you're wrong, you were proven wrong, and you still have trouble admitting it. why? 

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8 hours ago, Miser_able said:

Hence why I said "wouldn't be" instead of "isn't." since melee weapons are supposed to be getting exilus slots at some point, and I doubt body count will be one. 

No offense but how do you know what would and wouldnt be an exilus mod for melee weapons since it doesnt exist? If not body count, I don't think there are any other melee mods that could qualify. I think that every other melee mod increases damage in some way.

Edited by Skaleek
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Just now, Skaleek said:

No offense but how do you know what would and wouldnt be an exilus mod for melee weapons since it doesnt exist? If not body count, I don't think there are any other melee mods that could qualify. I think that every other melee mod increases damage in some way.

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And there's a few others.  But yeah, melee exilus would be a very abbreviated system if DE used the same rules without adding new mods. 

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18 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

And there's a few others.  But yeah, melee exilus would be a very abbreviated system if DE used the same rules without adding new mods. 

Good call. Forgot about the focused defense, guardian derisions. I am getting old. I suppose life strike, healing return also do not increase dps. relentless combination and the one on heavy where you get + movespeed too. It's all coming back to me i havent been WF'ing much lately.

Edited by Skaleek
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Just now, Skaleek said:

Good call. Forgot about the focused defense, guardian derisions. I am getting old. I suppose life strike, healing return also do not increase dps. relentless combination and the one on heavy where you get + movespeed too. It's all coming back to me i havent been WF'ing much lately.

Yeah, I just chose that one because it's such an oddball it struck me as funnier.   There's not that many candidates though.  Although even though the pool is much bigger, it's not like there is a huge variety that are actually used in the current weapon exilus, so maybe it doesn't matter that much.

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2 hours ago, tzadquiel said:

projectile speed extends the damage at specific range, making it a damage increase compared to no mod.
also, vigilante supplies exists.

and how often are you going above that range falloff on most non shotgun weapons? vigilante supplies provide it through a set bonus.

2 hours ago, tzadquiel said:

you're wrong, you were proven wrong, and you still have trouble admitting it. why? 

i wasnt proven wrong, because those guns give that tiny bit of damage they add (when they add that damage) its the secondary benefit of using those mods at best, which was always my point.

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4 hours ago, Zeclem said:

and how often are you going above that range falloff on most non shotgun weapons? vigilante supplies provide it through a set bonus.

Why is your constraint non-shotgun weapons?

Giving a damage boost to even one shotgun weapon would be enough to disprove your argument that it's not a damage boost.

I provided that argument, the Catchmoon, where it provides as much as a 10x damage increase to many of your shots.

 

But it's not exclusive to just the Catchmoon, it applies to pretty much any weapon with a short Max effective range.

 

4 hours ago, Zeclem said:

i wasnt proven wrong, because those guns give that tiny bit of damage they add (when they add that damage) its the secondary benefit of using those mods at best, which was always my point.

A 10x increase in damage is hardly tiny.

Even a tiny bit of damage is still an increase in damage.

 

You keep shifting the goal posts. The original argument was that wexilus mods don't provide DPS increase. Not that the DPS increase is significant. Not that the DPS increase is consistent.

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5 hours ago, Skaleek said:

Good call. Forgot about the focused defense, guardian derisions. I am getting old. I suppose life strike, healing return also do not increase dps. relentless combination and the one on heavy where you get + movespeed too. It's all coming back to me i havent been WF'ing much lately.

I'm not sure Life Strike or Healing Return will be exilus either. The New Loka Furis heal mod (Winds Of Purity?) isn't exilus. It has the usual aoe proc that might discount it but as a vigilante mod made the cut I doubt this was the reason.

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2 hours ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

Why is your constraint non-shotgun weapons?

why do you think?

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Giving a damage boost to even one shotgun weapon would be enough to disprove your argument that it's not a damage boost.

cept they are not any direct damage buffing mods.

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I provided that argument, the Catchmoon, where it provides as much as a 10x damage increase to many of your shots.

no it does not lol. it definitely does not give a consistent 10x damage increase.

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But it's not exclusive to just the Catchmoon, it applies to pretty much any weapon with a short Max effective range.

yes, as i said, by increasing its effective range. not direct damage.

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A 10x increase in damage is hardly tiny.

good thing that its not that kind of a damage increase.

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Even a tiny bit of damage is still an increase in damage.

which has nothing to do with my point. 

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You keep shifting the goal posts. The original argument was that wexilus mods don't provide DPS increase. Not that the DPS increase is significant. Not that the DPS increase is consistent.

im not, you are just arguing semantics. damage mods increase the damage/dps of a weapon in every situation, not just a few. we call these exilus mods "utility". 

i never liked arguing semantics, nor people who make up bs numbers on the fly and you just did both. consider yourself as the winner, im very much done with this conversation.

Edited by Zeclem
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Imagine thinking +flight speed mods don't increase your DPS on weapons like kuva kohm where your damage falloff begins at 13 meters.  13 meters is not very far.  Oh and it drops to 6.25% of its total damage at 26 meters/your opponents will probably giggle at that.  

Sustained DPS is a relevant stat for some weapons like base kohm or even boar prime.  Not for every weapon, however, kohm without ammo mutation deals zero damage eventually due to it chewing up all your ammo pretty quickly without a mutation.  

It would be nice to have harkonar scope as an exilus mod, but I guess I don't really care when I just get to run stabilizer with vectis prime to improve DPS.  

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