2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh: Part 2!

[Skaleek]

20 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

With all due respect, I thought you guys learned the last time you tried to change status procs that each proc needs to scale damage wise to be good.
And beyond that, there are other glaring issues here that are obvious to all veteran players.

Puncture reducing damage, even if it stacked up to 100%, is useless.
As crowd control procs such as Elec, Heat (which CC's and deals good damage), and now Impact apparently already can reduce enemy damage by 100% since they can't return fire.

For Cold, I'm not sure why it doesn't just build up to a freeze. Seems very obvious to do.

Blast has the same problems as Puncture, reducing accuracy does not matter. CCing an enemy with other procs, ignoring all other CC in the game, will still be better if you want safety.

Radiation just shows that you guys are still extremely out of touch with how enemies deal damage to each other.
Even after the armor changes this will remain the case. 
To put it bluntly, they never do enough for it to matter, even at thousands of % of a damage increase on their part.
It's one of the main reasons why Nyx is still bad to this day, and why only Octavia has an effective enemy damage scaling ability.
Because hers combines damage from all enemies at once and deals the total as DPS.

Now for Viral and Magnetic.
You just made them a damage multiplier for health and shield respectively.
However, for Corrosive, you kept it the same but in a nerfed state?
Why would Corrosive not just be a damage multiplier to armor like Viral and Magnetic now?
I fail to see the consistency here yet again, and it just seems like admittance that armor will still be king.

That's just fluff though, because the way I see it they're just losing their interesting mechanics for a generic stacking numbers game.
Speaking of stacking, these changes heavily favor rapid fire weapons only.
Burst weapons (like Sniper rifles for example) will not be able to benefit from these changes, seeing as stacking to 10 of the same proc (insane) will take them forever.

Overall this looks like a "we were short on time again, so just change procs to a numbers game" instead of expanding on status procs and making 'enhanced procs' interesting effects.
Ironically though, most of these statuses will still go unused, because they don't scale. Another layer of inconsistency.
Should have gone the route of heat procs for every proc (scaling damage and a nice effect).
The last time you guys gave up on interesting mechanics and switched to numbers game logic, we got Rivens. That still hasn't ended well to this day.

Well said. You just double proc'd status on me.

These changes feel like they were written on a chalk board and not actually thoroughly tested.

By the way, DE, you are changing a huge part of your game right now, you should be thoroughly testing these internally before shipping. Please, test.

Also yeah, how have you guys not figured out that a stacking debuff that reduces enemy damage is bad, regardless of %? A Dead enemy deals no damage. Make puncture do something else entirely.

[elZach]

Here's how I would change status-effects around while keeping thematic sense and being better balanced.

Impact gets the Toxin-Proc (making it the IPS shield-equivalent to Slash)
Puncture gets the Viral-Proc (making IPS the most relevant status effects, as they are hardest to achieve)

Toxin gets the Puncture-Proc (Toxin weakening enemies makes thematic sense and because regular Toxin-Damage is already bypassing Shields, there's no need to double-dip as THE anti-shield damagetype)

Viral spreads the procs of the target in a radius (viral would be an supportive amplifier to status)

[Xsoskeleton]

1 minute ago, Cephalon_Baphoma said:

Self Damage will more then likely return at some point.

 

That or they finally meet the reasonable middle ground;
Explosive weapon requiring arming range so people wont shoot at point blank even at the absence of self damage.
Kuva Tonkor, Corinth alt Fire, and Acceltra already does that and they prove the result quite well.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 hour ago, Gailus said:

From how it reads it's a defense debuff on the enemy. Subsequent hits will do extra damage while the viral procs are active.

With one stack it's mathematically identical to the old version of Viral. An enemy with half of its hp stays alive for half as long, and an enemy with all of its hp but takes twice the damage also stays alive for half as long.

Now we can just stack it up so the effective health of enemies is much lower. Slash Viral got a massive buff.

I don't think that's how it reads at all lol. It specifically says it no longer does the debuff that cuts max health in half. Now it just does double damage, stacking up to more damage.

Examples:

Before it was something along these lines -

Enemy has 1,000 health. You deal a viral proc that reduces enemy max health to 500 temporarily. You deal 100 damage, they now have 400 health, until the debuff wears off then it goes back up to 900 health.

Now

Enemy has 1,000 health. You deal 100 damage, and a viral proc. Enemy now has 800 health. The more procs you do the higher that damage multiplier goes (I guess until they die...there's no time window listed in the description).

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Viral

New Status Effect entirely: enhanced Damage! First Viral Status Effect deals 100% additional Health damage, subsequent Viral Status add +25% for a total of 325% (capped).
Note: Before Viral would halve a target’s health pool and simply refresh the duration. Now it deals 2x Damage to Health, and can scale up to 4.5x Damage on repeat Status Effects. 

Is the difference that this proc does not work until you remove shields first? Or does the proc deal damage to health even if you're damaging shields with your weapon?

[Cubewano]

4 minutes ago, Mephane said:

I am with you on the concept of damage fall-off for AoE explosions, however this is too harsh. 50% reduction at max range would be harsh enough already.

i would agree if armor wasn't getting nerfed, but at higher levels (where fall off should matter) 50% doesn't even counteract the more than halved effective hp of enemy units, you could wind up arguably doing more damage at maximum fall off that you would full damage now comparative to enemies durability, that's a bit wild, especially with things like the bramma that can presently 1-3 shot 170+ bombards. but de also were pretty clear they are just starting off low to be safe and not immediately break the game, so if 90% is truly too harsh (up in the air since we have zero experience with the new stagger/fall off for explosives) it can be gradually tweaked following such observations.

[shanedesinnweir]

😊 wait for update 😊

[V45H]

3 hours ago, SnowyGreyish said:

First! Nice additions.

Seeing as how tombfinger works, this comes out as a nerf to the gun.

it is technically a Nerf as there is now a negative effect where there wasn't one before however your wrong

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

4 hours ago, Kylo. said:

Instead of halving health aka doubling damage you can 1/5 the health lol

This.  Viral is getting buffed for 99% of intents and purposes.

4 hours ago, The_CMD_Shepard said:

Wow.... thanks for murdering my Kuva Ogris with the dmg falloff, just because some little kids couldnt handle self damage cuz they shot themselves in the face with it. 

No reason to pick it up again, give me a mod that reverses all the stupid AoE nerfs and give me Self Dmg back. 

I want a Rocket Launcher that goes BOOOOOM and not some baby nutter that sucks like hell. 

Mod Incautious Shot: 100% Self Dmg and +70% Dmg

This.  I'd rather have self damage than 90% falloff.  I'd even rather have self damage and 50% falloff than 90% falloff.

4 hours ago, Battle.Mage said:

so you cant play 8+ hour survival anymore?

high loss 🤣

This will actually make 8+ hour survivals easier, just with different statuses.

4 hours ago, IgnisDraconis4316 said:

 

 

3 hours ago, xRufus7x said:

Sort of. Viral scaled infinitely before, always removing half of the enemies health no matter what their health value was. New viral will just be a damage boost, which means that the higher you scale, the less effective it will become. With the other scaling changes though, you would have to be in endurance runs for the longhaul for it to have a significant impact.

The only downside is that enemies won't lose 50% of their health when it procs.  Its upsides including increasing your damage output by comparatively much more, and not having to see enemies go from 1% health back up to 50% health when viral wears off at an inopportune moment.

[Senguash]

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Magus Lockdown

On Rank 5: On Void Dash:

Drop a mine that tethers up to 10 enemies in 15m. After 4s it explodes dealing 60% of their Health as Puncture Damage.

I understand the corrosive projection changes, but armor can still be a dealt with. It's 60% enemy max health, it's scaling damage. It's highly spammable AoE cc and subsequent killing of anything at any level.

Are guns supposed to be able to compete with this?

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Magus Repair

On Rank 5: On Void Mode:

Heal Warframes within 30m by 25% Health/s.

It's full hp for the entire team in 4 seconds, scaling. 

It seems hard to ever make real difficulty in warframe when taking damage is only ever a momentary inconvenience.

And both of these are just operator arcanes.

As if they werent ludicrous enough already.

It's easy to just be like who cares, and yeah it's not as big a deal as im framing it as, but like... Most balance changes doesn't really matter as long as this is still a thing.

The self damage changes are really nice, but none of the AoE weapons were remotely close to lockdown and they won't be now either.

[Cubewano]

31 minutes ago, GPrime96 said:

Ouch, hoping my Bramma is still good on KPS after this.

Probably will be with how hard it hits but also keep in mind 90% is the maximum fall off, meaning the damage reduction will only happen at the furthest outreach of the explosion, most of the time you shouldn't be seeing that level of fall off unless you are just trying very hard to barely hit enemies. 

[Gailus]

Okay I'm actually super excited about the change to AoE guns. I know that getting weaker against groups should be a bad thing, but my favorite guns are all single target and I rarely used them anymore with the increasing prevalence of radial damage. It just felt foolish to be using something that I knew was objectively worse if that makes any sense.

[anfuerudo]

52 минуты назад, IgnisDraconis4316 сказал:

So you want it changed for one frame. Just like everyone wants self damage back for just Chroma........ And I have used mesa and the impact proc does nothing and in that mode your killing so fast it isn't an issue. Unless you modded for crap damage. 

Right now Impact and Magnetic are the most worthless procs cause they do nothing. All this does is push back the update further and further. In the majority of gameplay unless if you using a impact weapon it will not matter since everyone uses Slash weapons and the change of Puncture and Impact procing is remote.

Not one frame - Mesa was used as an example, duh. There're a lot of weapons that have impact as their primary damage, both ranged and melee. A lot of new weapons have a lot of impact on them. Hell, impact is one of bonus damages you can get on your lich. And no, it doesn't "do nothing". It has stagger proc, which usually throws aim off. Your aim, that is. And the only reason "impact proc does nothing" on Mesa now is because she has a built-in aimbot. And, while trash enemies do die quickly, elites don't. Something like Nox usually takes some time to kill. Currently it's a no-issue because they just get staggered, nothing more. But I can clearly imagine level 90-100 Nox flying across half a map with proposed(and currently revised, thank god) impact proc. Because that's what happened to some melee stances that just straight up yeet your enemies away in a bloody Neutral Tactical combo, which was supposed to pin them down so you can deal with them.

For crying out loud, there's a reason why -impact rivens are a thing.

And knowing all of this you're still thinking that changing it to ragdoll is a good idea? U wot, m8?

[janjandark]

3 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

Is there anything planned for status immune targets ?
These changes are good, but status are still useless on most of bosses and they are the only enemies strong enough for us to mod for. Maybe a status resistance instead of immunity would be welcome ? Reduced duration of effectivness could work.

they do mention in the post they are planing on removing status immunity from bosses and other targets depending on how things go

[waterboytkd]

@[DE]Rebecca I like the look of these changes! Only 2 concerns I still have: Impact escalating to ragdolling, and Magnetic status still being anti-shield.

For Impact, ragdolling is a fun bit of cc, but it's pretty unpredictable, and can make using guns very hard. I like a lot of the alternative ideas I've seen on this thread (such as escalating to a disarm/stun/opening the target for a finisher). Ragdolling is pretty cool on on-demand abilities, because you know what you're getting. It could get annoying, though, if I'm tearing into a Nox's head with my Twin Grakatas, and he suddenly starts flying away from ragdoll.

For Magnetic, the damage type already deals +75% damage against Shields and Proto Shields. Outside of specific sortie modifiers, enemies just don't have enough shields for the status effect to be meaningful before the Magnetic damage has already broken the shields, anyways.  I'm not really sure what else you can do, though. I like suggestions like "bullet attract" where shots veer to the target. Or maybe the bullet attract makes hits that would otherwise not be head shots become head shots, with additional procs increasing the headshot multiplier? I'm not really sure, but I'm pretty sure that leaving Magnetic as just more shield damage is going to leave it in its current place of "not really worth it".

[(PSN)MJ-Cena7]

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

The first Puncture Status Effect has an enemy deal 30% less Damage. Subsequent Puncture Status add +5% weakening, leading to up to 75% (capped). Each Puncture Status has a duration of 6 Seconds.

Armor reduction not dmg reduction dmg reduction on a proc is useeeleesssss

[Xsoskeleton]

Just now, (PS4)MJ-Cena7 said:

Armor reduction not dmg reduction dmg reduction on a proc is useeeleesssss

Considering corrosive no logner grants permanent armor removal, having mroe armor crippling procs without the possibility of reaching 100% could be fun.

[(PSN)FinaLLanceR]

In response to the Corrosive Changes specifically:

Uh, are you sure about this? I know the S-curve change is supposed to assuage the armor scaling issue when it gets to enemies above level 75 you said. At the present time, though, perfectly common enemies like Heavy Gunners have a 93.65% damage reduction due to their armor at level 75. That's about 4400 armor. For the sake of figuring, I'll assume it doesn't get meaningfully higher than that as the game increases level. Removing 80% of that brings them to 880 armor which is still nearly 75% damage resistance. In this instance that's about 3x to 4x the damage, which isn't bad. For higher base armor enemies the 80% reduction of armor gets much less noticeable, like with, say, the Gokstad Officer with 1000 base armor going from 97% to 87% damage reduction. Again, technically a 3x-4x increase in damage and that being the cap on armor reduction leaves little recourse on the enemies that still have enormous base armor ratings. 13 cents on the dollar isn't a good rate when the enemies can have a few hundred thousand health and that's the best we're able to do.

Slash seems viable but with the nerf to status shotguns, and slash having a relatively poor rate of return anyway, it seems the new way to deal with armor is to max corrosive procs, and use heat to lower it further. So 9 corrosive procs and a heat proc within 8 seconds of the first one to take an enemy from 93% damage reduction to about a 60% reduction in damage. Sure, going from 7 to 40 damage is technically one hell of a boost. But isn't this supposed to be a buff to status effects and status weapons in general? Running pure status to strip armor completely could take a Heavy Gunner at level 100 with nearly a Million effective hit points to under 40k even if those status effects did Zero damage. Now it still leaves them at over 150k. And only for 8 seconds. 

I guess my biggest issue is that with the current system fast status based weapons are viable as long as they have some kick to them. The meta has been shifting toward big burst damage weapons for a while now. I feel like without the ability to completely strip armor, low damage (or non crit viable) weapons, and especially non slash status weapons simply won't be as useful in a game where they were already waning. 

[(PSN)Onder6099]

No more DoT or I’m missing something?

[thelasttand]

i don't see the poin of using blast.
Fire has CC, DOT and armor reduction.
Blast will just reduce accuracy...
If the current AI don't have any accuracy/precision up i don't see why we should use blast.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

2 hours ago, Crusher4881 said:

So heat procs still won't stack? Heat's useless without the stacking DOT of other elements.

It already does stack, as of several patches ago, right after it got 50% armor reduction.

2 hours ago, IgnisDraconis4316 said:

 

 

2 hours ago, BrazilianJoe said:

Gas is still super-unsatisfying. 

It is an AoE, but weaker, version of Toxin. 

What?  No it isn't.  You realize that the proc is literally a AoE toxic proc, right?  The major downside to gas is that gas damage itself doesn't ignore shields... the proc is a straight upgrade to toxic procs.

[Duduminador]

As a person who frowns over power fantasy and trully believes it's the one thing wrong with Warframe... Even if I were Jim Carrey I still would lack the facial muscle strength to accurately express in my reaction uppon these buffs.

[BloodRavenCap]

We will no longer kill ourselves with self-damage, we'll be dying from enemies killing us after stagger. It feels like a bad joke really. And status rework is just depressing. Feels like you give two buffs, but then roll out ten nerfs.

Maybe it's time for all auras give additional capacity like Steel Charge? 

[(PSN)Nagato_09716]

3 hours ago, Sauravisus said:

No armor buff for Nidus who cannot take advantage of shield gating, because he literally has no shields? For shame.

Nidus already have 400 armor

[Fiedra]

damage 3.0 is bacc baby! better late than never. i appreciate the revisions made to the current damage system.

[(PSN)Stardust-Rebel]

I hope you like farming toroids, kid.