2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh: Part 2!

[Borg1611]

edit: nvm I read it wrong initially.

I think adding a stagger to weapons that currently don't do self-damage is a really poor choice though. 

also: 

  

13 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

but it should only be noticeable in cases of extreme inaccuracy on the player’s part.

This is a ridiculous statement as some of the weapons listed you intentionally set off the explosion right on top of yourself because you're trying to AoE the things around you. Shooting the Staticor at your feet isn't inaccuracy, it was a strategic choice you could make that apparently you'll now be CCed for doing when previously you were not. 

[Gaikki]

So... no buff to kaboom guns AND no self ragdoll? This one's a bust.

[-VV-Crunchy]

No, God, don't touch corrosive, please. Also giving weapons self-flinch that didn't have self-damage is just absurd.

[GPrime96]

20 minutes ago, eboomer said:

The damage is only OP if the enemy has no shields and no armor (in which case two dashes kills them no matter how high level they are).  Based on what I'm reading from DE in the original post, it looks like that will only be true of the infested after the update lands.  And by the way, the tankier infested enemies actually have armor too.  So I disagree that it's too much damage.  And people only use the cc of lockdown in a pinch, not as the sole cc for an entire mission or anything.

Also can be completely useless on Demolishers at higher levels since it’s Duration diminish over time.

[(PSN)Vodka_Vision_]

Oberon gets buffed. Oberon prime does not. 

[maddragonmaster]

4 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

It should come back in augment form. Weapon augments for explosive weapons to have a decent ragdoll chance.

there is no way in vey hek that i am going to waste a dang slot for something that was removed because people can't stand trying to hit a target that moves. thats the most insulting piece of crap i ever heard. its like if they took half of chroma's vex armor buffs and locked it behind an augment because people where complaining about him being too strong.

[Shinmaye]

On the minuscule chance this is read, an idea for puncture damage instead of damage reduction:

On proc, all/some damage sources have a 50% chance to utilize weakness multipliers regardless of damage location. Multi-proc effect would be to increase chance by 5% until 80% and renew 6 sec duration.

For example, if you shoot a butcher's arm and proc, then keep shooting him in the arm, you have an X% chance to "headshot" the arm.
Description wise, we are literally puncturing their armor to deal increased damage.

Also an alternate idea for impact: After final level of stagger would be dazed, basically standing there with stars swirling around because they got a concussion.

Good luck

[rstripn]

Impact vs Blast status

As it is now based on patch notes:

Impact Old vs New: Stagger, unchanged.

Blast Old vs New: Knockdown -> Concussion-like stacking accuracy debuff.

Result: Significant reduction in CC ability from status effects, and impact is now the status least useful to apply multiple times.

Suggested change:

Impact: Interrupt, concussion-like stacking debuff.

Blast: Impact proc + increasing CC effects on additional applications. e.g. interrupt -> stagger -> knockdown -> ragdoll

Why: No loss of overall capability. Impact keeps pace with other status updates. Relatively easy to implement with existing code. 

[TheOneBird]

@[DE]Rebecca

A major concern about the arcane changes, how are the people who already own max rank arcanes (like Energize, Grace which cost a fortune to buy) are going to be compensated after the update?

I owned a "MAX RANK ARCANE" before the update so I should own a "MAX RANK ARCANE" after the update, this argument seems logical. Are our current  "MAX RANK ARCANE" going to be upgraded to Rank 5 after update or are we in for a BIG DISAPPOINTMENT?

Arcanes cost a lot of money. I spent around 3000 plat(which I had used IRL money to buy) to buy arcanes. And even before the update all the arcanes that I've bought have already lost half their value. And on top of it if I have to spend more plat just to buy items that I already should have had, then it's a big disappointment. If DE doesn't care about our investment in the game then the player base would soon move onto another game that does care.You always say you guys care for the player base so I think it would be appropriate for DE to provide adequate amount of compensation to the player base for their investment. 

What are your thought?

[TheFoxing]

rhino armor buff, but not rhino prime? that's cold. 🥶

status changes are overall good, but let's be honest here... viral/slash builds with hunter munition's is going to be the new meta.

did you not consider this? 300% stronger slashes 💩 on something that already semi-works on the current high armor targets. 

"we want to bring status chance into the meta" --> crit mod that makes the strongest status by building crit not nerfed, but BUFFED.

corrosive damage actually got buffed here too because you can't overstrip a target to lose 75% increased damage.🤡

 

most of the changes don't actually do anything for wanting to use those status or useful unless you've just got an extra type laying around.

Magnetic just obliterates shields, but who cares? you can just bypass shields entirely via multiple ways. why isn't magnetic... idk... MAGNETIC... pull enemies together that have armor, and does extra to shields if an enemy collides with them.

 

Inaros literally got a buff to survivability... the invincible king got a fugging buff...

meanwhile hildryn is just having her passive given to everyone and will still get 1 hit by anything toxin, or that remotely hits hard as "25% damage reduction guys" even on 90% adaptation you get creamed for your whole shield because it doesn't work with armor, and this 25% change is essentially the same thing as saying "well shields work with armor... up to 50 armor lmfao nerds" - please. for the love of having an option to tank that isn't just a crusty ass mummy... make hildryn's shield work with armor, or triple the passive shield damage reduction at the very least (ie. that would still only be about 800 armor)

 

i'm also still hoping that the new "stagger" system isn't completely separate to knockdown and there will still be some warframes/mods that will allow us to bypass the staggering such as iron skin, cautious shot rework / prime surefoot.

 

[Nevieth]

28 minutes ago, -VV-Crunchy said:

No, God, don't touch corrosive, please. Also giving weapons self-flinch that didn't have self-damage is just absurd.

I don't agree with the first part of your post, but I'm 100% in on the second part. Weapons that functioned without self damage all of a sudden being affected by self-damage replacement nerfs is absurd and a bit unfair.

Yeah, spamming Staticor underneath you isn't very strategic, but it's not like its overpowered. A quick melee swing would have the same effect, overall. I hope some weapons that don't have self-damage are evaluated and left as-is, even if the explosive range doesn't change whatsoever.

Like the Pox... do they expect the 4 second Pox cloud to just cause knockback? Or the initial toss? How is Pox even explosive? It's not, it's cloud.

Clouds don't knockback irl m8.

[GruntBlender]

Another thought about the oft-forgotten infested. This time it's about the Cold status. It's not very useful, as slowing enemies isn't enough compared to what Rad or Heat statuses do. Where it would be useful is with the Infested, as they're mostly melee and therefore rely on getting to the player. A spoke in that wheel is that Infested Flesh and Fossilized have a resistance to Cold, making it kinda useless. Combined with Cold mods having a different polarity to everything else...

At least beef up the Cold status a bit to compensate, like extra crit to slowed enemies, DoT, or self-damage on attack. As it is, converting Cold to literally anything else makes it better. The other 3 basic elements have DoT in addition to other gimmics, why not Cold?

• Heat: DoT + Armor Strip + Panic
• Toxin: DoT + Bypass Shields
• Electricity: AoE Damage + Stun
• Cold: Slow them down a bit?

It even nerfs Electricity and Heat when combined with them. Heat: (DoT+ArmorStrip+Panic) -> (Reduced accuracy) They go from panicking (not shooting), DoT, and being more vulnerable, to just shooting less accurately. Electricity: (AoE+Stun) -> (Extra shield damage) Useless on anything but Corpus (and some Corrupted), and even then stunning them is probably better, and Electricity does +50% to Robotic health. Cold is only useful to make Viral. Plz address this.

[Nevieth]

5 minutes ago, TheFoxing said:

status changes are overall good, but let's be honest here... viral/slash builds with hunter munition's is going to be the new meta.

 

 

When was that not the meta? lmao

[TheFoxing]

1 minute ago, Nevieth said:

When was that not the meta? lmao

the "only" meta i should've said... viral/slash has always been good, but corrosive was always a necessity for armor targets... but who needs that when targets are like 60-70% less tanky, and you can do 300%+ the damage to them.

[TheLexiConArtist]

13 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Self Damage + AoE Weapons

In addition to Self Damage being removed, some of the more powerful AOE weapons without Self Damage presently will have the Stagger added, but it should only be noticeable in cases of extreme inaccuracy on the player’s part. The Weapons include: 
Kuva Chakkurr
Opticor
Opticor Vandal
Battacor
Simulor
Synoid Simulor
Ferrox
Astilla
Shedu
Kuva Seer
Cyanex
Staticor
Pox
Tombfinger
Granmu Prism
Exard Scaffold

In the original Dev Workshop, we said:

As a result of this overall systemic change, Weapons with Stagger will be getting approximately a 20% buff in Damage, with any weapons with AOE receiving a 50% Radial Damage Falloff from central impact. 

This is no longer accurate after continued testing. What we are doing now is:

No damage buffs have been added, but any weapons with AOE are receiving ~20% increase in Radius. Additionally, AOE weapons are receiving a 90% Radial Damage Falloff from central impact. This means on the very outer section of the explosion Radius 10% of the Damage will be dealt. Tactics will be deadly - aim true, Tenno. 

Why: Several players brought up the history of the Tonkor and we want to make sure we ship this change in a place that’s conservative in its starting point from a balance perspective. The complete removal of Self Damage does change the pace of destruction with some of the game’s most powerful weapons, so we want to make sure we can iterate upwardly instead of releasing a bonanza of explosions with no other choices. 

You forgot why you didn't give the Simulor self-damage when you fixed it and the Tonkor.

Weapons which naturally deploy too-close (e.g. Simulor) or are unpredictable (e.g. Cyanex due to homing) should not be affecting the player. The fault is not theirs, but of the mechanics.

 

That one point aside, JUST KEEP SELF DAMAGE. For the love of the Lotus, I'm glad you acknowledged the Tonkor meta history but you've still forgotten the other lesson;

Removing automatic headshot to address the power level of the Tonkor/Simulor made other explosives even less usable, and they weren't fixed until much later.

Once again, you're removing power from weapons that don't all need it (courtesy of damage falloff) when the correct solution - NOT abandoning self-damage as its own control factor - is staring you in the face.

The biggest problem people have with it is colliding with allies. Out of all the reasons against, reasons it's "too RNG/unpredictable", that is the single highest justification. Change that first, then take a look to using a diminishing return formula to better scale damage output with self-damage that respects the growth curve of our effective health. Then most people would be happy. The rest have 90% of other weapons to use instead. They don't NEED the self-damage explosives.

 

Explosives need to be explosive, not throw out mildly inconvenient water balloons. This is not permanent Dog Days.

[Darkmega18]

my 5c, I like ragdoll, if only cause I love seeing enemies going flying, like, YEET when I off them in certain fun ways, and if still alive, the ancients and certain small grineer enemies get a little nutty and bounce all over the place which brings me a smile if i'm taking my time. But, I'd consider ragdoll would be more of an "explosive finish" to a well stacked blast proc rather than impact. I'd say impact would be more like, mini stun, more stun, big stun, omega stagger stun with execute window, then if the omega stun wears off but they're still affected by the lingering impact proc, then knock them on their ass for an extended period, like as if a bursa got to them. at that point, they're so dizzy from all the blunt force they just don't wanna play the video game anymore.

[Nevieth]

15 minutes ago, DracoPrimo said:

@[DE]Rebecca

A major concern about the arcane changes, how are the people who already own max rank arcanes (like Energize, Grace which cost a fortune to buy) are going to be compensated after the update?

I owned a "MAX RANK ARCANE" before the update so I should own a "MAX RANK ARCANE" after the update, this argument seems logical. Are our current  "MAX RANK ARCANE" going to be upgraded to Rank 5 after update or are we in for a BIG DISAPPOINTMENT?

Arcanes cost a lot of money. I spent around 3000 plat(which I had used IRL money to buy) to buy arcanes. And even before the update all the arcanes that I've bought have already lost half their value. And on top of it if I have to spend more plat just to buy items that I already should have had, then it's a big disappointment. If DE doesn't care about our investment in the game then the player base would soon move onto another game that does care.You always say you guys care for the player base so I think it would be appropriate for DE to provide adequate amount of compensation to the player base for their investment. 

What are your thought?

As someone who also will be potentially losing quite a bit of platinum due to these changes and events, I'm not expecting DE to provide any sort of reimbursement to me. You still have your Arcane rank 3, and it's stats will most likely remain as-is (or close to it), it will just have a higher upgrade path for future expansion.

I don't see how its DE's business that you made an in-game transaction in a constantly changing and evolving game. Do you want them to refund people who bought disposition 3/5 rivens that got nerfed to 1/5? That won't happen nor is it acceptable to expect that.

It's sad, but you gotta just roll with the punches, friend.

It would be one thing if the Arcanes in question were being removed completely, but they aren't. You aren't losing your rank 3s, and you know it. That's why you said "max rank" instead of "rank 3."

Assuming your rank 3 arcane gets a free upgrade to rank 5 is dumb, and I think you may know that since the way you phrased it.

[rstripn]

14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Heat

No Change.

 

If Heat stacks damage even close to as effectively for damage as do Slash and Toxin, it definitely does not need armor reduction in addition to the panic effect. This would be the perfect time to remove it, when all of status-kind is being renewed.

[rstripn]

15 minutes ago, DracoPrimo said:

 

A major concern about the arcane changes, how are the people who already own max rank arcanes (like Energize, Grace which cost a fortune to buy) are going to be compensated after the update?

I owned a "MAX RANK ARCANE" before the update so I should own a "MAX RANK ARCANE" after the update, this argument seems logical. Are our current  "MAX RANK ARCANE" going to be upgraded to Rank 5 after update or are we in for a BIG DISAPPOINTMENT?

 

Compensation assumes loss. You are losing nothing. A rank 3 arcane still has the exact same abilities as it did before. All they're doing is adding the possibility to increase it further.

If you have two max ranks of the same type, you can now break down the second and be almost all the way to a full rank 5, PLUS you now have a whole extra arcane slot.

... unless I'm missing something?

[GruntBlender]

13 minutes ago, rstripn said:

Blast: Impact proc + increasing CC effects

Making Blast do for Impact what Gas does for Toxin sounds pretty good, if Impact is buffed like you said.

Maybe make Impact do Interrupt -> Stagger -> Disarmed(melee) -> Dazed(standing idly) -> Dazed 2(open to Finishers)? Ragdoll seems like it's a bit divisive.

[Nevieth]

2 minutes ago, rstripn said:

 

Compensation assumes loss. You are losing nothing. A rank 3 arcane still has the exact same abilities as it did before. All they're doing is adding the possibility to increase it further.

If you have two max ranks of the same type, you can now break down the second and be almost all the way to a full rank 5, PLUS you now have a whole extra arcane slot.

... unless I'm missing something?

Nope not missing anything, basically what I also said.

Not sure why they would expect compensation when they're not losing anything. It's an upgrade path, not a removal of the Arcane.

It's also why they said "MAX RANK" and not "Rank 3", cause I think they knew that deep down, it wasn't something that warranted compensation/ reimbursement from DE.

[mikakor]

9 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

The biggest problem people have with it is colliding with allies

i would rather say that the problem is that if self damage catch you, you get one shotted, period. with any decently modded weapon, even on the tankiest frame. if self damage was nerfed to like doing 10 per cent of a frame's health, people would shut the hell up about it, DE wouldn't have any problem with it anymore, and people would mostly be happy! but being OS'ed is cheap, period. and in a game that is all about going fast, no, i shouldn't have to "take my time" to use a weapon. not when i can do the same with an ignis, doing a far better job, without even risking of dying to my own bullets.

[Nevieth]

Just now, mikakor said:

i would rather say that the problem is that if self damage catch you, you get one shotted, period. with any decently modded weapon, even on the tankiest frame. if self damage was nerfed to like doing 10 per cent of a frame's health, people would shut the hell up about it, DE wouldn't have any problem with it anymore, and people would mostly be happy!

A set 200-damage hit for shooting yourself would be fine, most likely -- and it would appease both crowds. Keeping self-damage while making self-damage recoverable without absurd risk. But since Weapons have such absurdly high damage to compensate for the enemies health, it 1 shots any frame.

 

[GruntBlender]

11 minutes ago, TheFoxing said:

the "only" meta i should've said... viral/slash has always been good, but corrosive was always a necessity for armor targets... but who needs that when targets are like 60-70% less tanky, and you can do 300%+ the damage to them.

Slash/Viral was great for armoured targets as Viral reduces health and Slash does true damage, ignoring armour. it was actually MORE useful against armoured targets than others.

[SkornDarkheart]

Why is magus elevate not 100%? Like I'm honestly confused. I don't see how this kind of RNG is ever a good thing.