2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh: Part 2!

[Zofon]

Can you please use this opportunity to make puncture not useless?

[Taiepii]

14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Why: We think being consistent is key. Passively removing 100% of an enemy's defenses is not an interesting choice, and we were completely inconsistent in this regard with Auras (i.e the efficacy of 4x Corrosive Projections vs 4x Shield Disruptions). Expect these Auras to reach somewhere in the 60-80% Range when 4x are equipped as we are still testing.

According to the Graph shown during the Dev stream. The armor scale will reduce only around the level 75. And the armor will be even higher than now at level under 75.

Many many player don't go over the level 80-100. Which is Lich level 5, Sortie level, 30min Requiem mission, 20min Arbitration. And so those player that arealready struggling at that level might struggle more because of the aura nerf ? ( Im aint forgeting that many still prefer "Steel charge" for grineer but still )

Endurance player will find other means to keep the damage high enough where as ordinary player might get mad at the game.

I hope this nerf mean something more like. Buff aura at singularity for all ( like 40% armor strip per aura ) and capped at 80% with squad. It will make diversity much more interesting this way.
"In short copy the same idea of Arcane rework" please.

 

[(PSN)Sentiel]

I don't get Viral...

If it increases health damage we deal to enemies, shouldn't it also affect Grinder units that have armor, making Corrosive redundant?

 

Also, with the change to Radiation...Nyx rework please. I love Nyx but with this, Irradiating Disarm and Hollowed Ground will make her mostly obsolete now.

[ZuroTheEvil]

Status changes are a complete joke.

[Nevieth]

6 minutes ago, SkornDarkheart said:

Why is magus elevate not 100%? Like I'm honestly confused. I don't see how this kind of RNG is ever a good thing.

I'd rather it be 99% than 95% cause at least then it's hilarious if it doesn't procc and you end up dying because of it.

😄 I'm a bit evil though

[TheLexiConArtist]

12 minutes ago, mikakor said:

i would rather say that the problem is that if self damage catch you, you get one shotted, period. with any decently modded weapon, even on the tankiest frame. if self damage was nerfed to like doing 10 per cent of a frame's health, people would shut the hell up about it, DE wouldn't have any problem with it anymore, and people would mostly be happy! but being OS'ed is cheap, period. and in a game that is all about going fast, no, i shouldn't have to "take my time" to use a weapon. not when i can do the same with an ignis, doing a far better job, without even risking of dying to my own bullets.

9 minutes ago, Nevieth said:

A set 200-damage hit for shooting yourself would be fine, most likely -- and it would appease both crowds. Keeping self-damage while making self-damage recoverable without absurd risk. But since Weapons have such absurdly high damage to compensate for the enemies health, it 1 shots any frame.

Please see my thread:

In it (and in several other places) when people have suggested such, I have explained why capping damages does not work (inconsistency regarding tankiness if percentage, too able to be ignored as flat damage).

I also offer a formulaic solution that would make the relationship of self-damage to output damage more elastic which would help make the increasing risk better match the increasing reward.

@mikakor it just sounds like you don't enjoy the playstyle required to operate around self-damage. That's fine! Nothing in the game and none of us who are enjoying it are telling you that you have to use it, that you have to get good (once beyond the ally-collision issue). The game has plenty of other choices that would suit you better, which is why self-damage never needed to be removed and explosives dumbed down in the first place.

[GruntBlender]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Sentiel said:

I don't get Viral...

If it increases health damage we deal to enemies, shouldn't it also affect Grinder units that have armor, making Corrosive redundant?

 

Also, with the change to Radiation...Nyx rework please. I love Nyx but with this, Irradiating Disarm and Hollowed Ground will make her mostly obsolete now.

Viral is capped at +325%, Corrosive doesn't seem to be capped. 10x Corrosive procs reduce armor by 17.7x, it's more effective but more specialized to grineer.

[mikakor]

6 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

 it just sounds like you don't enjoy the playstyle required to operate around self-damage. That's fine! Nothing in the game and none of us who are enjoying it are telling you that you have to use it, that you have to get good (once beyond the ally-collision issue). The game has plenty of other choices that would suit you better, which is why self-damage never needed to be removed and explosives dumbed down in the first place.

well, no thank you. i want to be able to use every weapons in warframe as i see fit, but also would want to see these weapons usable. in a fast paced game like warframe, you should NOT have to take your time, and be careful. go be careful with a frame with self destruction power. once every 10 minutes, you randomly get blown up becuase one of your friends came in front, a mob spawned, whatever. it's not niche, it's not "legitimate". and i will fight tooth and nail to make sure that self damage stays removed, while also making sure that DE's unfounded fear of a launcher meta realize how pueril and idiotic this kind of chimera-fearing is.

a percentage of health taken, as in, like ten, would have been the perfect middle ground. sadly, DE doesn't realize that a launcher meta will not be a thing, not when there's many better weapons. i want to use big boom weapon becuase i like explosions. but DE unnecessarily nerf launchers out of unreasonable fear. as a player, i need to make sure this rotten idea of falloff gets pushed away. Self damage is gone, and it's a good thing, but it was replaced by something so dumbed down that it defeat the whole #*!%ing point of launchers.  but you can help and participate in the feedback threat about AoE that they will post once the update goes live tomorrow. not by aksing for self damage coming back, it's not happening, but by helping everyone and pushing DE away from that horrendous falloff radial damage, and proving them that their fear are kid's nightmare. nothing else.

ho, also, good morning/evening/night to you, wherever you are! i was going to sleep, so i'll only see what you answered tomorrow. have a good day!

[GruntBlender]

4 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

it just sounds like you don't enjoy the playstyle required to operate around self-damage. That's fine! Nothing in the game and none of us who are enjoying it are telling you that you have to use it, that you have to get good (once beyond the ally-collision issue). The game has plenty of other choices that would suit you better

That's a great argument against Archwing movement changes and armor scaling rebalance.

[Nevieth]

8 minutes ago, mikakor said:

well, no thank you. i want to be able to use every weapons in warframe as i see fit, but also would want to see these weapons usable. in a fast paced game like warframe, you should NOT have to take your time, and be careful. go be careful with a frame with self destruction power. once every 10 minutes, you randomly get blown up becuase one of your friends came in front, a mob spawned, whatever. it's not niche, it's not "legitimate". and i will fight tooth and nail to make sure that self damage stays removed, while also making sure that DE's unfounded fear of a launcher meta realize how pueril and idiotic this kind of chimera-fearing is.

a percentage of health taken, as in, like ten, would have been the perfect middle ground. sadly, DE doesn't realize that a launcher meta will not be a thing, not when there's many better weapons. i want to use big boom weapon becuase i like explosions. but DE unnecessarily nerf launchers out of unreasonable fear. as a player, i need to make sure this rotten idea of falloff gets pushed away. Self damage is gone, and it's a good thing, but it was replaced by something so dumbed down that it defeat the whole #*!%ing point of launchers.  but you can help and participate in the feedback threat about AoE that they will post once the update goes live tomorrow. not by aksing for self damage coming back, it's not happening, but by helping everyone and pushing DE away from that horrendous falloff radial damage, and proving them that their fear are kid's nightmare. nothing else.

Agreed, for the most part. I respect Lexi's opinion and love how they gave it, but I have to call into question when they claim "Oh, that's right. The vocal player minority who don't actually like explosives." in their thread that they linked.

From everything I've seen in-game and on the forum, and the subreddit, it's the vocal minority that wants to KEEP it, not remove it. The majority is all for a rework or straight removal of self-damage, that much is apparent. I don't believe Warframe is the sort of game where that slow paced strategic play is benefited, and you need to be slow paced and strategic to effectively use explosive weapons with self-damage without the risk of killing yourself.

I also hated how inconsistent it was. One explosive weapon could blow you up while another would be just fine.

I'm all for removing self damage, or nerfing it into the ground to cause you to be cautious of instantly killing yourself based on a single goof without the need of Cautious Shot.

I'm also in full agreement with your claim regarding damage falloff. I think it's such an awful system, and can only hope that after enough outcry like with self-damage DE will change and fix it, too. There will always be weapons that are 'The meta' and explosive launchers barely make the top 5. Even the Kuva Bramma is only a new toy, it's not particularly the most power weapon, it's just the most fun currently.

I'm worried about mentioning non-explosive weapons like Amprex or Ignis though, cause DE may take that and say "ok Ignis nerf next" instead of saying "ok removing damage falloff" as they should.

Warframe is a hack-n-slash. A dungeon crawler. It's basically Diablo but in third person and in space. You go into zones, kill enemies or complete objectives, and load out -- evaluating your goodies on the way out. I think they need to increase the mob spawn-rate truth be told, especially for Solo players... not create more self-damage risk.

Overall I'm pleased with this mainline update, if not concerned over a few choice issues.

[Frost_King]

13 hours ago, Olianu said:

The last time it was attempted, DE got a horrendous backlash on it.  We got vacuum on Sentinels/bots, we got fetch on pets.

Yeah I know but with the mainline and fixing everything else including self damage to self knockdown was kinda hoping that it would get touched on too.

[Nevieth]

2 minutes ago, Frost_King said:

Yeah I know but with the mainline and fixing everything else including self damage to self knockdown was kinda hoping that it would get touched on too.

Hey friend, that's fair. I also wish they'd rework and remove the trade limit on sentinel mods that you get from Simaris. I bought a Negate a week ago for the sole purpose of selling for platinum for forma, but I can't sell it or trade it without having a duplicate in my inventory. It's such a dated system that's been long forgotten about.

It doesn't help anyone, and seems to be from a time that no longer exists.

 

I don't even have a Wyrm. 😢

[suogi]

So, the question is after changing status for viral that has no duration while health damage affect???

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

That's a great argument against Archwing movement changes and armor scaling rebalance.

Except that you're forced to deal with Archwing in any mission that requires Archwing, and you're forced to deal with armour whenever fighting armoured units?

The equivalent would be a "self-damage weapon only" Sortie condition - the game forcing you to deal with the unwanted option - which of course does not exist.

On the other hand, we do have Bow Only, and bows are probably used just as little as launchers are/were. But there's no easy scapegoat for complaining about them like self-damage is for explosives.

1 minute ago, Nevieth said:

Agreed, for the most part. I respect Lexi's opinion and love how they gave it, but I have to call into question when they claim "Oh, that's right. The vocal player minority who don't actually like explosives." in their thread that they linked.

From everything I've seen in-game and on the forum, and the subreddit, it's the vocal minority that wants to KEEP it, not remove it. The majority is all for a rework or straight removal of self-damage, that much is apparent. I don't believe Warframe is the sort of game where that slow paced strategic play is benefited, and you need to be slow paced and strategic to effectively use explosive weapons with self-damage without the risk of killing yourself.

I also hated how inconsistent it was. One explosive weapon could blow you up while another would be just fine.

I'm all for removing self damage, or nerfing it into the group to cause you to be cautious of instantly killing yourself based on a single goof without the need of Cautious Shot.

Warframe is a hack-n-slash. A dungeon crawler. It's basically Diablo but in third person and in space. You go into zones, kill enemies or complete objectives, and load out -- evaluating your goodies on the way out. I think they need to increase the mob spawn-rate truth be told, especially for Solo players... not create more self-damage risk.

Overall I'm pleased with this mainline update, if not concerned over a few choice issues.

I admit the initial post of that thread was a little bit hasty but I was discussing self-damage heavily in a thread before the devstream happened anyway, so I was a little wearied on repeating myself.

I later clarified that it's the vocal minority who hate it and absolutely insist on removing another player's niche to cater to their desire for <10% of total weaponry. Also, I accept that those of us who actively enjoy it are also a minority, but it's the latter who stand to lose everything they like about it for the slim gains of the former.

The majority of players are in the middle-ground groups:
1) Dislike self-damage but accept that they don't have to use them, so leave them be.
2) Have no strong opinions for or against self-damage, and might equally use as not use the weapons just like anything else in the game.

There's also a point on consistency - one that was brought up back in the Tonkor days. It's actually far more consistent than you think, depending on where you categorise 'an explosive'. Conventional, chemical reaction explosives have always self-damaged to a relevant scale, except the original Tonkor release. On the other hand, energy pulses, concussive shockwaves, etc, those either don't, or only do in certain edge cases (e.g. Lenz).

 

Speaking as someone who does use them - not predominantly, but enjoying when I do and enough that there's one in a persistent loadout slot - unless you're comparing it to the W+M1 Ignis-on-Mercury levels of pacing, you might be surprised how well you can keep pace and mobility going while remaining safe, once you've mastered it. It just asks you to think, strategise and manoeuvre a little differently in the moment-to-moment instead of barrelling through your enemies' faces.

[OnlyFans]

 

14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

No damage buffs have been added, but any weapons with AOE are receiving ~20% increase in Radius. Additionally, AOE weapons are receiving a 90% Radial Damage Falloff from central impact. This means on the very outer section of the explosion Radius 10% of the Damage will be dealt. Tactics will be deadly - aim true, Tenno. 

This is a NERF to a sub-type of primary that isn't popular already. More radial damage the closer it detonates to you = more radial dmg and more severe the stagger - the further the detonation the less damage from point of impact. The whole point of launcher/explosives was that they were high risk, high reward - This update will make them high risk low reward because you'll be dead by the time you come out of your stun-lock anyway, Self damage is NOTHING compared to the nerf that launchers are going to receive. I hope everyone who whined about self-dmg is happy because I am f**kn pissed.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Permanent armour strip was VERY powerful and - I suspect - one of the reasons why we're seeing such absurd armour levels....

...Speaking of Corrosive Projection - yes, not being able to stack that to 100% is a good idea. I'd honestly redo Auras themselves. Double or triple their current values for an individual player, but have them stack at something like 25%-50% of their base value for every additional player using the same aura....

Hate to be that guy, but no, that's not why we have such absurd armor levels.  We actually already have less crazy and more s-curve scaling on armor (or health?  I forget) than we used to.  Yes, it used to be even higher.

Corrosive Projection.... can't be fixed or leveled for coordinated teams without effectively deleting it from the game for randos and casuals.  In particular, this is because of things like Coaction Drift.  If Corrosive projection strips even 12% of armor, people will just go from 4x CP to 4X CP +4X Coaction Drift and still strip 100% of armor.  The idea to make the first instance of it more effective and additional instances less effective is great, but TBH the first instance still can't be allowed to go above something like 30% with the additionals going for maybe 4% each if they're serious about this.  Even then people could use CP with Corrosive procs to completely strip armor about instantly.

The problem with armor is that it's a scaling %DR, and it defends scaling health, so even with an S curve the tankiness of armored enemies with a health pool to speak of is always going to scale in a north-of-linear fashion.  Maybe if it were a fixed % reduction, perhaps determined by unit type, and health was the only thing that scaled, this wouldn't be a problem, but we're pretty far from that sort of system.

[KokoroWish]

Personally I'd swap Blast/Impact procs. It just makes a little more sense to me.

[Nevieth]

10 minutes ago, Sleepers said:

 

This is a NERF to a sub-type of primary that isn't popular already. More radial damage the closer it detonates to you = more radial dmg and more severe the stagger - the further the detonation the less damage from point of impact. The whole point of launcher/explosives was that they were high risk, high reward - This update will make them high risk low reward because you'll be dead by the time you come out of your stun-lock anyway, Self damage is NOTHING compared to the nerf that launchers are going to receive. I hope everyone who whined about self-dmg is happy because I am f**kn pissed.

1. I agree with the issue regarding damage falloff, and think it's a bad implementation and explosive weapons aren't powerful enough to warrant a mass nerf like that.

2. I don't agree with blaming those who were against self-damage for this, though. It seems the self-stagger animation can be skipped or sped up depending on player response, seeing how Rebecca while showing it off on the Dev stream was chastised for doing so. Also even a huge hit that would've otherwise killed you beforehand now seems to only stagger you for a second or two, less than the time it takes to be knocked onto the ground by an enemy.

3. Shield gating will prevent being killed while staggered, plus in situations where you're self-staggered and die, you would've died anyways from self-explosion. It's trading one evil for a lesser evil.

The idea of self-damage being high risk/high reward is absurd, since self-damage weapons weren't even really the meta before the Kuva Bramma, and even that is only as good as some other Primaries that don't have self-damage.

[master_of_destiny]

18 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Hate to be that guy, but no, that's not why we have such absurd armor levels.  We actually already have less crazy and more s-curve scaling on armor (or health?  I forget) than we used to.  Yes, it used to be even higher.

Corrosive Projection.... can't be fixed or leveled for coordinated teams without effectively deleting it from the game for randos and casuals.  In particular, this is because of things like Coaction Drift.  If Corrosive projection strips even 12% of armor, people will just go from 4x CP to 4X CP +4X Coaction Drift and still strip 100% of armor.  The idea to make the first instance of it more effective and additional instances less effective is great, but TBH the first instance still can't be allowed to go above something like 30% with the additionals going for maybe 4% each if they're serious about this.  Even then people could use CP with Corrosive procs to completely strip armor about instantly.

The problem with armor is that it's a scaling %DR, and it defends scaling health, so even with an S curve the tankiness of armored enemies with a health pool to speak of is always going to scale in a north-of-linear fashion.  Maybe if it were a fixed % reduction, perhaps determined by unit type, and health was the only thing that scaled, this wouldn't be a problem, but we're pretty far from that sort of system.

I have to agree with you, that we are lacking critical information.

 

What DE has not yet shown is the EHP curve, and that's really what we need.  They pulled the armor reduction magic with Railjack, bumped the health, and the EHP of our enemies raised.  It's almost like we're being shown only what they have, and they might not understand that giving us parts of the new system without an idea of the interaction, might be frustrating.

 

I'm of the mind that you are entirely correct with the 60-80% numbers actually being dealt with via coaction drift, and the eventual result will be that coaction drift eats a nerf.  This will be well after we've had time to acclimate and rebuild, because basic testing won't have uncovered this "cheat" to the system.

 

Negativity aside, I look forward to what the EHP graph actually shows, and I'm hoping DE doesn't do anything for months.  It'll be fun to watch, and given the community called it within hours of the posting it'll be interesting to see the reaction.  Maybe we'll get another delay, and push this into next week with a part 3.  Maybe we'll get a measured response and a 2-3 week delay while they work out the bugs and basics so that the release is minimally bumpy.  Maybe I'm an idiot and this thing will release Thursday night to be furiously patched Friday afternoon, so the "double affinity weekend" can be spent figuring out what is a bug and what is a feature with no new content to actually use the affinity gains on.  Let's roll them bones, and hope for something better than a 10.  Anything less than a 10 is going to be interesting for all the wrong reasons.

[(PSN)Agent_CHAR]

52 minutes ago, Taiepii said:

The armor scale will reduce only around the level 75. And the armor will be even higher than now at level under 75.

You aren't reading the graph correctly.  There are two lines - the current one that starts low and spikes really high and the other that starts higher and goes flat.  The "S" curve they keep talking about comes from using the current line up to level 75 and then swapping to the other line after 75 (the intersection point of the lines).

What you said would be true if they threw out the 1st current line and used only the new line for all levels.

 

 

[staranow]

13 hours ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

Not at all. The current fearmongering argument is that it's going to take years for the average player to earn maxed arcanes because of the current rate at which you can farm arcanes from Eidolons.
 

Who are you and why do you use the term fearmongering? Really why?

[IamLoco]

A big MEH! from my side concerning AoE weapons.

In your efforts to somehow rebalance self-damage, you completely went the wrong way.

Again, I remind you that huge parts of the player base suggested lowering the self-damage to a reasonable amount. Don´t remove it, balance it.

What you now did to AoE weapons though makes them completely (!) irrelevant on higher levels. They will still be good to show off against newbies in lvl 15 defense missions (look at my big badda boom, noobs!) but with a 90% dmg reduction, what´s the purpose of using them in sorties or even arbitrations?? Why would any sane person use a kuva ogris or bramma (clunky, slow) if it only kills with a direct hit while you could easily achieve the same result with a much easier to handle sniper rifle or even a pesky burst rifle? The only reason to ever use a clunky explosive weapon was to blow up a whole room or to launch enemies behind cover into space.

You really dropped the ball here, my dudes.

[(XBOX)OnlineTH]

About Corrosive, does it still have permanent "armour strip?" or enemies will gain back full armour after 8sec end.

[GruntBlender]

31 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Except that you're forced to deal with Archwing in any mission that requires Archwing, and you're forced to deal with armour whenever fighting armoured units?

Don't play those missions if that's not your thing. Armor rebalance only affects lvl70+. The basis for all these arguments is "Don't like it, go somewhere else". Niches don't make money, broad appeal does. In turn, broad appeal justifies these weapons existing. If they're relegated to a niche, introducing new ones in that class is wasted effort. Like new Conclave maps at this point, imagine wasting all that time and effort to make a Conclave map for the few who play it.

[Vesiga]

I can't tell if this is a nerf or buff to Saryn