2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh: Part 2!

[Arcira]

Damage interface:

Spoiler

Instead of hiding damage number from dot effects like slash or toxin I´d suggest another approach:

- stacking them into one number which displays the current dps value

- add a symbol variation infront of the number in order to differentiate them from hit damage (optional: can be enabled/disabled in HUD options)

- add a number in brackets behind the dps number showing the latest dot damage value applied (optional: can be enabled/disabled in HUD options)

example: ﴾ 350 (+50)

Status effects:

Spoiler

Not a big fan of this kind of cap especially against low tier units (trash mobs). For Bosses or elite units this might be reasonable if there isn´t a better solution.

- Utility/CC effects should stack up in efficiency and result in a special effect when you reach a certain threshold. Rinse and repeat.

Cold: Same as stated but without the 75% cap. Instead at 100% the enemy becomes frozen solid for a short amount of time. After that all cold stacks are reset to a lower value you can stack them again up to 100% for the freeze etc.

- Things like anti armor/shields/health effects should be treated like damage e.g. when you deal a "status hit" they take damage to there corresponding defense layer (liniar no diminishing returns):

Corrosive: Each status proc deals damage to the armor like Shattering Impact does

Heat: Reduces armor up to 100% when you reach a certain amount of stacks for a limited amount of time. The armor value only resets when you don´t deal heat damage within a certain amount of time

Also armor reduction was always kind hard to grasp. Maybe you could add some kind of mechanic like a blend over from yellow to red or increasingly cracked yellow life bar for some kind of visualization and feedback.

 

On another note. The description for the radiation/viral procs sounds like they will stack multiplicative with your damage. If that´s the case I just want to say a 5 times+ damage multiplier sounds ridiculous overpowered.

Arcanes:

Spoiler

I don´t think much will change here other than a shift in meta builds (maybe)

Problems I can see:

- still huge imbalance in efficiency and/or usefulness

- changing between operator arcane setups is inconvenient

- even with the the rework the amount of slots is ver limited compared to the aviable options

General:

Spoiler

Not specifically related to this post but since armor buffs are mentioned:

I thnk one of the main issues in warframe is the massive EHP gap between warframes which makes it quite difficult to implement any kind of fair "challange". This is where I´d actually like to see some kind of cap especially in terms of damage reduction. I´d suggest to implement a hard cap at 90% no matter what source you are using (armor/abilities/mods/arcanes etc).

First of this alows for new abilities/mods/arcanes to be introduced without too much power creep. Of cause this will require changes to ability/mod scaling since certain warframes can reach this cap with next to no effort already but I think this would be a good balancing decision. Second this might actually increase build deversity and theory crafting to some degree because player have the choice how to reach the cap.

Self damage: Looking forward to test this. Especially the interactive knockback recovery part sounds good I hope this mechanic will be added to other sources of displacement effects as well (moas,scorpions, acient healers etc).

 

 

[BlackSunSerpent]

Changes that was made to explosive falloff radius is tremendous, this weapons still be viable for enemy lvl up to 50-60, and then they will just be a lesser alternative to ANY pin point gun even with scaling changes. Cmon DE, the only thing why explosive weapons exist in first place is to deal AoE damage. I can agree to some point of falloff but not up to 90%. Please reconsider this changes.

[Sylonus]

38 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Hang on. Couldn't you just go Tanker 5 + Guardian 5 and have.. more, post-change? 

You could, Guardian now has an even lower proc rate, and Most Rhino Iron Skin builds are rather squishy without Iron Skin active and Guardian won't proc with iron skin on.

So, if you're gonna have something annoying to set up IMO you may as well change to Naramon to open enemies to finishers and use Arcane Ultimatum for even more armor memes.

I have my issues with the arcane changes, but, I don't think Rhino got hit hard by them, and in fact if you're willing to put up with some annoyance, he got stronger.

[Meistoo]

You guys know that e.g. Bramma outperforms many pin point guns even in single target damage right?

[Shonaney]

-so guardian now from r3 20% 600 with 20 sec over r5 15% 600 with 30 sec to r5 15% 900 with 20 sec .... if u now change it to 20% 900 with 20 sec im fine

-also the energize cooldown change, gaining energy in huge amounts even with draining abilitys active is a nice to have and allows to build different (frame and squad) if you dont balance that cd the right way, we will have to rely on other ways that reduce our frame and squad build variants, for some ppl that even mean they are pinned to zenurik, cause we want to use our shiny abillitys to smash around and create effect explosions all over the tilesets without thinking of energy in first place, also we already get other stuff we have to maintain like embers heat that (for me) is a pain cause while fighting, takn care about my life and energy i have to babysit that one too ... (would be a big improvement if you could fit all these values we have to babysit together in one place where it could easy be noticed!) (I know that is a problem of a lazy end content user, but yes, sometimes i want just to hop in and rush around and enjoy the time i invested 😉 )

-i like the changes of the status effects, but i dont like the cap of it and like some ppl already stated, these status effects should always scale so they are usefull within every enemy range ppl want to play, you added x seconds until it wear off, thats a point to balance it, if a status is to strong, reduce it a second or change the grow to be not linear (to a cap) but like nth root function (procs starting strong but getting weaker the more you add, but still count!) but dont limit the number of status stacks we could apply to an enemy (at least i hope even with the cap it is possible to renew the cd with every status i apply that would go beyond the cap)

-when u rework the auras, may line all up to the same drain (prefered 9 but also ok with 7)

-please for the fun, add a 100% Selfdamage -100% falloff range mod (otherwise reconsider the +90% falloff)

(Edit: Oh and one question, if energize get a cooldown, will it ONLY pick up orbs if it could trigger or just waste other orbs during the cd?)

[Jarriaga]

I know it's late for this post as changes are coming today, but I think some status effects should be swapped for practical and logical reasons:

- Viral and Puncture status effects should be swapped. Puncture so it can compete better with Slash (More so against armor), and Viral because you'd expect it to weaken enemies.

- The Blast effect should be given to Impact. Makes more sense because when you take a big hit and get dizzy, your coordination (Ergo your aim) fails. This in turn opens the door for Blast to be given knockdown or stagger, as expected from an explosion.

[TheLexiConArtist]

21 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

You could, Guardian now has an even lower proc rate, and Most Rhino Iron Skin builds are rather squishy without Iron Skin active and Guardian won't proc with iron skin on.

So, if you're gonna have something annoying to set up IMO you may as well change to Naramon to open enemies to finishers and use Arcane Ultimatum for even more armor memes.

I have my issues with the arcane changes, but, I don't think Rhino got hit hard by them, and in fact if you're willing to put up with some annoyance, he got stronger.

Fair play, I had a feeling it might prevent triggering but wasn't totally certain, Rhino's not my beefy lad of choice. People like to accuse weird inconsistencies where there aren't any, and completely miss out on things like this. Pretty sure temporary invulnerability still allows On-Damage triggers, even...

[Siyovott]

12 hours ago, Ikusi_Prime said:

I'm loving these changes, but you forgot one status effect: Void

The Void status effect is, quite frankly, terrible. It can actively hinder you trying to hit enemy weakpoints if a stray shot procced on a part of a body you didn't want to hit (see: EIDOLONS!!!). It also doesn't stack like the new system should allow it to.

A better status effect that suits the themes of the Void would be to have the Void status proc strip the damage resistances granted by their health type, slowly bringing them down to neutral. This would be similar to how it strips the resistances built up by Sentients, and it would make the damage type less terrible outside of Eidolon hunts, as a high status Amp could actually deal real damage to enemies and set them up for big damage from your weapons.

Meanwhile, the bullet attractor Void currently has, can be added to the magnetic status instead, since when someone says "magnet" one usually thinks of attraction.

Notice I said "ADDED" not "replaced with".

[Sylonus]

Just now, TheLexiConArtist said:

Fair play, I had a feeling it might prevent triggering but wasn't totally certain, Rhino's not my beefy lad of choice. People like to accuse weird inconsistencies where there aren't any, and completely miss out on things like this. Pretty sure temporary invulnerability still allows On-Damage triggers, even...

Yep, though in this case it is indeed a weird inconsistency, temporary invulnerability due to say, a Vazarin dash will still allow Barrier to proc, but Iron Skin will not, you could use this to proc Barrier easier, but, Naramon and Ultimatum is going to be more armor anyway, and Naramon I feel is more helpful to an iron Skin Rhino than Vazarin. (He's my tanky boy of choice in some situations, but honestly, I can hit 400k iron skin, and still need to refresh it in lich missions >.>, I'd rather just go Inaros or Revenant.

[BlackSunSerpent]

29 minutes ago, Meistoo said:

You guys know that e.g. Bramma outperforms many pin point guns even in single target damage right?

Exept in this game Bramma is not the only one existing explosive weapon, you know. 

[Gehirnspaghetti]

As many people have pointed out Now, impact procs feel more like a punishment than sth to root/mod for. 

I want to suggest a modified Version of what SortaRandom suggested in this thread

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1171335-impact-shouldnt-cause-aoe-knockdown/

 

What about this:

Impact procs Now stun enemies for 0.75 second. Each subsequent proc adds 0.25 seconds to this duration up until 3 seconds. In stunned position they leave their head exposed, similar to equinox' or ivaras sleep abilities. Enemies are NOT open to stealth damage in this state but after the fifth proc (when the timer would've reached 2 seconds total) they open to finishers (perhaps indicated by slumping into another Pose, from head hanging to their left to it hanging more to the right).

 

This would have the following advantages:

-preserves inherent logic (big thing Hits enemy, enemy blacks out)

-both impact damage and its status procs are Now effective against enemies with shields, as hitting the head is a crucial part to bypass an enemies shields)

-status on snipers has a much more inherent value (either you kill em with one shot, kiddo, or your shot will stun em so your next can Land perfectly)

-impact is Now desirable on close range weapons (finish the enemy off with a finisher) and long range weapons (open them up to headshots)

 

[o0Despair0o]

21 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Banshee Prime: 65 to 125

 

21 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Impact

Repeat single-target Impact Status Effects will escalate the efficacy of the Impact Status (from Stagger to full Ragdoll).
EDIT: We are reviewing how Ragdoll feels and may change pending feedback. EXPECT AN UPDATE TODAY ON THIS NOTE! EDIT 2: No more Ragdoll!

 

21 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Viral

New Status Effect entirely: enhanced Damage! First Viral Status Effect deals 100% additional Health damage, subsequent Viral Status add +25% for a total of 325% (capped).
Note: Before Viral would halve a target’s health pool and simply refresh the duration. Now it deals 2x Damage to Health, and can scale up to 4.5x Damage on repeat Status Effects. 

I like this.

21 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Tombfinger

This, I don't like.

What made this one shine is the AoE. Without it (or rather, with it being nerfed so hard), this gun is essentially worthless.

 

Good thing I'm not one of those geniuses who spend thousands of plat on a Riven 😛

[Dante6th]

 

Nidus will not have any kind of buff?, it is not fair for the main´s Nidus, he should be given more life and deff,U give him a buff to def inaros? by god inaros and will not give nidus?

[Siyovott]

1 hour ago, Arcira said:

Damage interface:

  Hide contents

Not a big fan of this kind of cap especial against low tier units (trash mobs). Bosses or elite units on this might be reasonable if there isn´t a better solution.

- Utility/CC effects should stack up in efficiency and result in a special effect when you reach a certain threshold. Rinse and repeat.

Cold: Same as stated but without the 75% instead at 100% the enemy becomes frozen solid for a short amount of time. After that all cold stacks are reset to a lower value you can stack them again up to 100% for the freeze etc.

- Things like anti armor/shields/health effects should be treated like damage e.g. when you deal a "status hit" they take damage (liniar e.g. no diminishing returns etc):

Corrosive: Each status proc deals damage to the armor like Shattering Impact does

Heat: Reduces armor up to 100% when you reach a certain amount of stacks for a limited amount of time. The armor value only resets when you don´t deal heat damage within a certain amount of time

Also armor reduction was always kind hard to grasp. Maybe you could add some kind of mechanic like a blend over from yellow to red life bar for some kind of visualization.

 

On another note. The description for the radiation/viral procs sounds like they will stack multiplicative with your damage. If that´s the case I just want to say a 5 times+ damage multiplier sounds ridiculous overpowered.

 

If corossive should stip base armor like shattering impact, what would you propose for puncture, since reduction of damage reduced doesn't exactly help with it dying faster nor does it stop it from dealing damage entirely like CC would?

On heat, I am on the same page as you, but was hesitant about proposing that, because i fear DE would find multiple elemental armor strips either redundant or imbalanced, but the more I think about it, the more I think it will add diversity to modding instead.

Same page on cold as well.

But what about blast? I advocate for it to blind enemies in range, but I am wanting to hear if you have a better idea, as per your insight on the others.

Would you consider magnetic procs negating enemy shield gates to be a good idea?

[KelvinM6]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Dredgen_Vor said:

The complaints far outclassed the pro self -damage players. Just move on 

And I was anti-self dmg for sure, I think it's a terrible fit for this game, but with 90% $#% falloff I'll take it.
It's honestly kinda cruel we finally get what we want and they basically just make aoe weapons single-target weapons.
What, is our shield-gating gonna kill us instead of making us invulnerable too?
Also STOP, we've been over impact ragdolls, sometimes I wonder what's wrong with DE, this is supposed to be the point where we go ''They're finally listening!'', how do you mess this up DE? I'm out, gj

[Steel_Rook]

7 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Hate to be that guy, but no, that's not why we have such absurd armor levels.  We actually already have less crazy and more s-curve scaling on armor (or health?  I forget) than we used to.  Yes, it used to be even higher.

Fair point. That might not be the reason to GIVE enemies their current armour levels, but it certainly is a reason to KEEP enemies at their current armour levels. With enemy armour dropping drastically, the need for Corrosive in its current implementation drops, meaning it can be nerfed or redesigned in conjunction with the armour changes. I mean, go through threads in General Feedback and you'll see a pattern: "The armour changes won't do anything because Corrosive!" shows up over and over again. Well, since we're not going to have old Corrosive, then the new armour scaling changes make more sense. Just like I predicted 🙂

 

7 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Corrosive Projection.... can't be fixed or leveled for coordinated teams without effectively deleting it from the game for randos and casuals.  In particular, this is because of things like Coaction Drift.  If Corrosive projection strips even 12% of armor, people will just go from 4x CP to 4X CP +4X Coaction Drift and still strip 100% of armor.  The idea to make the first instance of it more effective and additional instances less effective is great, but TBH the first instance still can't be allowed to go above something like 30% with the additionals going for maybe 4% each if they're serious about this.  Even then people could use CP with Corrosive procs to completely strip armor about instantly.

I was more aiming that suggestion at other Aura mods in general. Stuff like Energy Siphon, Physique, etc - those effects are so low as to be inconsequential with just a single player running them, but they have to be this low lest they stack too high with a full squad. But look at something like Energy Siphon. Assuming it doesn't just straight-up need a buff (it does, but hypothetically), that's 0.6 energy/s solo, 2.4 energy/s on a full team. Now let's say we set the mod to 1.8 for a single user, then each additional user adds another 0.2 with a fully-ranked mod. Total stays at 2.4 (1.8 + 3* 0.2) but a single player still has substantially higher energy recovery on their own.

Years ago, Payday 2 did something similar. Teams were padded to 4 characters with bots filling the missing slots. Each bot could be equipped with a buff of some kind (+health regen, +armour, +ammo, etc.), but that buff only worked if the bot was actually on the team. The moment players join your game, they replace your bots and those buffs disappear, ideally made up by actual intelligent players with a decent build. I can definitely see the same being the case with Auras, at least to some degree.

[Emperrier]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Dredgen_Vor said:

The complaints far outclassed the pro self -damage players. Just move on 

So? If the majority of players who don't use your favorite gun/frame/etc said to DE that it should be deleted from the game, you'd be ok with that?

[(NSW)Greybones]

Looking forward to seeing how all of these changes play out! Thanks for the work DE 👍

[TheLexiConArtist]

14 minutes ago, Emperrier said:

So? If the majority of players who don't use your favorite gun/frame/etc said to DE that it should be deleted from the game, you'd be ok with that?

Nah, we clearly just need to spam constant posts stating "this is fine" for every item in our arsenal. Bloody confirmation bias.

Newsflash @(PS4)Dredgen_Vor - nobody's posting about the status quo because that's how it already is. Only time self-damage needed 'defending' is when the entitled group who can't handle making a mistake insist the game change to suit them.

Now look what happened. They're all going to be boring and useless. Thanks to the kind of people who desperately need "THIS END TOWARDS ENEMY" printed on their guns.

[(PSN)Mr_Maikels]

On the self damage part: What about the wapens like the ogris? Are they still going to deal self damage?

[Kaotyke]

23 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Expect these Auras to reach somewhere in the 60-80% Range when 4x are equipped as we are still testing.

Are you taking into account Coation Drift?

[Emperrier]

13 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Now look what happened. They're all going to be boring and useless. Thanks to the kind of people who desperately need "THIS END TOWARDS ENEMY" printed on their guns.

I just really wish DE would embrace that when you have hundreds of guns, not everyone needs to like every single one. Between the changes to launchers and to status it's pretty clear they want the functional ideal of a Warframe weapon to be a high-fire rate, hitscan, crit/status hybrid rifle. Ok, well I find that kind of gun extremely boring. So there's pretty soon going to be zero guns in this game that I enjoy using. Is DE okay with people bouncing off or leaving their game because their guns are all snoozefests?

[(NSW)Greybones]

15 minutes ago, Emperrier said:

I just really wish DE would embrace that when you have hundreds of guns, not everyone needs to like every single one. Between the changes to launchers and to status it's pretty clear they want the functional ideal of a Warframe weapon to be a high-fire rate, hitscan, crit/status hybrid rifle. Ok, well I find that kind of gun extremely boring. So there's pretty soon going to be zero guns in this game that I enjoy using. Is DE okay with people bouncing off or leaving their game because their guns are all snoozefests?

I think you’ll need to let the veterans find the new (ugh) meta 😛. They’re the ones who are gonna make sure it’s flawless, after all, and they’re not tied down to silly ideas like “Is this meant to work like this?“.

Also, there’s more than a handful of them to search, and they got time, so you can be sure that everything will be tested to player satisfaction 👌

[Arcira]

1 hour ago, Siyovott said:

If corossive should stip base armor like shattering impact, what would you propose for puncture, since reduction of damage reduced doesn't exactly help with it dying faster nor does it stop it from dealing damage entirely like CC would?

On heat, I am on the same page as you, but was hesitant about proposing that, because i fear DE would find multiple elemental armor strips either redundant or imbalanced, but the more I think about it, the more I think it will add diversity to modding instead.

Same page on cold as well.

But what about blast? I advocate for it to blind enemies in range, but I am wanting to hear if you have a better idea, as per your insight on the others.

Would you consider magnetic procs negating enemy shield gates to be a good idea?

First of I want to clarify that the purpose for my examples is to explain my suggestion. Wether corrosive does base, current or even a % of armor is up to balancing. The actual point is making offensive status procs scaling behaviour similar to damage but with it´s own unique mechanics.

Anyway I can give more example how it could look like for the damage types you´ve mentioned

Puncture could be a mixture of defense/ and cc type. What this means is stacking Puncture procs reduces the enemies damage capabilities like they are currently planing to do but instead of the cap you can reach 100% which will result in the disarm statuseffect.

Eventhough i don´t like the current iteration of Blast procs the basic concept is quite similar to the damage reduction from Puncture which means reducing accuracy to 100% could result in the blind status effect.

Magnetic on the other hand is quite different. Like corrosive and viral it´s primary effect is supposed to be a purely offensive mechanic limited in two ways here (duration and hard cap). Other than my concerns about the actual strength of the damage multiplier I think the fundermental concept is fine. Negating the shield gating would be a better fit for the secondary proc effect (regen reduction). But whether or not it´s a good idea to add this is a balancing decision I don´t really want to do without actual testing.

Also I think it´s absolutely fine to have different things affect the same object (e.g. corrosive and heat both reduce armor) as long as you can differentiate them by there mechanics or something. As you said it might even increase modding deversity.

[b4timert]

21 arcanes needed to max one is way to much. What happens when the event go's away?Do you have any idea how many long it takes just to farm 10. Not including plat just buying them from players cost a insane amount of credits.

Also do we need a rank 5 for the extra revive  now or will it still a rank 3?