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Adding 2 more ranks to arcanes was completely unnecessary.


(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA
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1) removing the ability to stack arcanes could have been it's own change. 

2) adjusting the efficacy of arcanes to compensate (to a point) for not having two of them didnt require creating 2 more ranks requiring 11 more arcanes. They could have simply adjusted the stats as is.

3) it doesnt seem like the "as good as 1.5 arcanes" thing is actually what we ended up with. The general consensus seems to be that guardian and energize for example are *worse* at rank 5 than they used to be at rank 3.

It really gives me the impression that DE just wanted to create artificial grind incentive for the new event but didnt want to come up with new rewards. 

And "but you still have your rank 3 set so don't complain" is not a valid argument when the old rank 3 is BETTER than the new rank 5, let alone the new rank 3. 

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Removing the ability to stack definitely improves diversity since instead of running two of the same players are now free to run two separate arcanes while still gleaning the bulk of the effect of running the duplicates. 

While they could have said "Hey all your R3s are just boosted" that would have completely decimated the Arcane values and if you think the whining from the Arcane sellers is bad now, just double the availability of max rank arcanes over a single patch and the shrieking would have been deafening. 

Most Arcanes seem to be IMO upgrades, at least the arcanes I gave a hecc about. Some Arcanes did kinda get shafted and others where clearly nerfed from a double stack but it's kinda to be expected. 

 

I'm not 100% sure that I would disagree there, the sentament that they are trying to create a sense of reward without actually bringing anything to the table is pretty much how I feel about the whole "Lich gunna steal ur stoof" mechanic. Soooo I can definitely see where you're coming from there. Hopefully there will be some new stuff in addition to the Arcanes and hopefully it is a permanent addition and not a limited event that ultimately religates Arcanes back to the exclusivity of Eidolons. 

 

On your last point I definitely disagree, R5s in many instances are either strait up better or more reliable than the old R3s even when double stacking. Arcane Nullifier for example went to 90% in the old system and even tho you could double stack two 90s, it did not actually give 100% resistance. There was still some wiggle room for getting hit with magnetic damage, where as the new R5s strait up block 102% and while I'm not sure why they felt the need to go a whole 2% above 100 that is a definite 100% resistance which strait up beats the old doublestacked R3s.

Some things didn't come out quite as well but they given that you can now freely take up a 2nd unique Arcane, I'm personally happy with the changes. 

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"Removing the ability to stack definitely improves diversity"

That implies a certain level of trust that I find naive at this point. I mean, it'd be like reaching for a piece of candy on a table, only to get your hand slapped away. If someone places another piece of candy on the table, would you reach for it, knowing what happened the other time?

No, the devs really messed up hardcore with these nerfs. If they'd just changed the stats, that'd been enough, but nerfing the most valuable ones to the players? That's a huge breach of trust.

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Adding rank 5 to arcanes was done just so people wouldnt *@##$ about nerfing arcane stacking.Most of the new arcanes are fine a few need some buffs and hopefully with the new event it will be easier to get arcanes.People always make way too big of a deal out of deserved nerfs 

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On 2020-03-05 at 6:15 PM, Countess_Hapmuhr said:

"Removing the ability to stack definitely improves diversity"

That implies a certain level of trust that I find naive at this point. I mean, it'd be like reaching for a piece of candy on a table, only to get your hand slapped away. If someone places another piece of candy on the table, would you reach for it, knowing what happened the other time?

No, the devs really messed up hardcore with these nerfs. If they'd just changed the stats, that'd been enough, but nerfing the most valuable ones to the players? That's a huge breach of trust.

How can a diversified build be naive? Breach of trust? 

A higher stat single arcane coupled with a different arcane is exactly how a build should be. More fragile warframes not only benefit from a higher stat survivability arcane but can now increase confidence with the use of another. Can't see a fault with that.

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21 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

How can a diversified build be naive? Breach of trust? 

A higher stat single arcane coupled with a different arcane is exactly how a build should be. More fragile warframes not only benefit from a higher stat survivability arcane but can now increase confidence with the use of another. Can't see a fault with that.

Before this nerf, I used five arcanes, now I only see three which are worthwhile to use. That's less diversity. If anything, they should have made the others worthy of using instead. Removing double stacking isn't the problem, nerfing the top three arcanes out of usability is however. The same goes for Auras too. Only thing nerfing corrosive projection caused me as a vet to do was replace it with energy siphon to make up for the Arcane Energize nerf. Aka, nothing has changed, I still don't have any more worthwhile gear just because DE chooses to nerf the high ranking stuff.

The only thing that *has* changed in this is the fact that we 1) Know that if something becomes popular it's going to get nerfed (which we already knew with rivens) and 2) Investing time grinding stuff in this game is pointless because the rules get swapped around, thereby nullifying your effort.

After six years, as a vet, I am getting pretty tired of this and I know I'm definitely not alone in thinking this.

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36 minutes ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

I feel like being able to use the same Arcane twice was really cool since it was a unique option compared to how Mods work. 

To be honest, builds get kind of lazy when everyone just stacks the same abusive stuff, such as C.P. aura stacking, using only corrosive on builds even against corpus, using only saryn cause it sheets on mobbing in general regardless of what type enemies were, etc. etc.

Now i am already seeing setups taking advantage of now that energize is not abusable, to where people can make what is basically immortal setups with frames that are normally were hyper squish and not really needing to use grace or energize at all, instead opping for status proc immunity arcanes to fully cover anti.c.c measures. Especially since the frames themselves would have rather efficient costs or barely need to worry about spamming abilities that much. Not to mention shields are popular as a form of durability now, which its major weakness can be covered by using a particular arcane to negate that one status which bypasses shields.

I definitely want some slight refinements to the rank 5 arcanes though, such as the extremely low proc chances for certain effects having much higher proc chances or duration, such as i feel Arcane guardian if it can`t refresh proc, based on how some were stating it, really needs to last an extra 10 seconds for a total of 30, when other armor arcanes are lasting 45 and even 60 seconds with easier to proc methods and higher armor values then the others.

But honestly, double stacking the same arcane was kind of just as scummy as the gag of people stacking blind rage, trans fort, umbral intensify, augur secrets and power drift to just maximize power strength to such high levels, it did quite the good the good job of having its issues instantly negated via arcane energize or pancakes to chain speed run the `big content` like eidolons, likely even Law of Retribution with a similar setup and of course, kuva liches. 

 

Now im curious to see once console gets the fully hotfixed version, how useful in kuva lich & other certain fights will become with the changes, Though i wish they would let titania freaking be able to pick up data masses, power cells, coolant/thermia so i can really enjoy using her calling card ability in plenty of content, especially as she has continued to rise into epic tier quality now.

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11 hours ago, Countess_Hapmuhr said:

Before this nerf, I used five arcanes, now I only see three which are worthwhile to use. That's less diversity. If anything, they should have made the others worthy of using instead. Removing double stacking isn't the problem, nerfing the top three arcanes out of usability is however. The same goes for Auras too. Only thing nerfing corrosive projection caused me as a vet to do was replace it with energy siphon to make up for the Arcane Energize nerf. Aka, nothing has changed, I still don't have any more worthwhile gear just because DE chooses to nerf the high ranking stuff.

The only thing that *has* changed in this is the fact that we 1) Know that if something becomes popular it's going to get nerfed (which we already knew with rivens) and 2) Investing time grinding stuff in this game is pointless because the rules get swapped around, thereby nullifying your effort.

After six years, as a vet, I am getting pretty tired of this and I know I'm definitely not alone in thinking this.

As a vet, I assume you're no stranger to the constant cry for balancing by other vets. Well, here is a phase of that balance. 

-Double stacking should have never been a thing in the first place. No other mod stacks so why should these?

- The "big three" are nowhere near "out of usability". That's just over the top, sorry. An R5 gives you basically a stack and a half instead of double stacking. If I can't get the job done with that plus another arcane now, then maybe I'm not good and relied on it for way too long. I can literally use two of the big three with only a slight decrease in performance each...when I originally couldn't run both. How is that a nerf?

My bad, I'm not trying to hit you with the BS line but, seriously, this is why DE has such a hard time dealing with "vets", especially Min-Max vets. It's unnecessary whining and it gets mixed in with real issues. It's even harder to kill frames now too so, I don't get you.

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18 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

As a vet, I assume you're no stranger to the constant cry for balancing by other vets. Well, here is a phase of that balance. 

-Double stacking should have never been a thing in the first place. No other mod stacks so why should these?

- The "big three" are nowhere near "out of usability". That's just over the top, sorry. An R5 gives you basically a stack and a half instead of double stacking. If I can't get the job done with that plus another arcane now, then maybe I'm not good and relied on it for way too long. I can literally use two of the big three with only a slight decrease in performance each...when I originally couldn't run both. How is that a nerf?

My bad, I'm not trying to hit you with the BS line but, seriously, this is why DE has such a hard time dealing with "vets", especially Min-Max vets. It's unnecessary whining and it gets mixed in with real issues. It's even harder to kill frames now too so, I don't get you.

Double stacking isn't the problem. If DE had just buffed everything 1.5, we'd have utility and new goals. That'd be nice, it'd tell us vets "we respect you, but we're gonna swap some stuff around and give you more room for expansion." Instead they just destroyed Arcane Energize (And yes, it IS destroyed compared to before when you could get energy quite easily, now it's more or less the same as having another Zenurik buff on you. Do the math.) and more or less made Grace and Aegis pointless in the same wave.

But yeah, I assume DE hasn't nerfed anything you've spent time on yet. I assure you though, that day will come and then you'll be here, filling in for me, because then I'll be gone. Assuming of course that DE keeps on with this stupid nerf mentality instead of accepting that we just need newer goals and ways to expand. Trying to force us use subpar gear isn't the way to do that.

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On 2020-03-09 at 5:38 PM, Countess_Hapmuhr said:

Double stacking isn't the problem. If DE had just buffed everything 1.5, we'd have utility and new goals. That'd be nice, it'd tell us vets "we respect you, but we're gonna swap some stuff around and give you more room for expansion." Instead they just destroyed Arcane Energize (And yes, it IS destroyed compared to before when you could get energy quite easily, now it's more or less the same as having another Zenurik buff on you. Do the math.) and more or less made Grace and Aegis pointless in the same wave.

But yeah, I assume DE hasn't nerfed anything you've spent time on yet. I assure you though, that day will come and then you'll be here, filling in for me, because then I'll be gone. Assuming of course that DE keeps on with this stupid nerf mentality instead of accepting that we just need newer goals and ways to expand. Trying to force us use subpar gear isn't the way to do that.

For a bit of info, I'm over five years now, with 99% of everything this game has to offer. I have plenty of arcanes, including the "big three", and have spent a lot of time playing this game. 

You are whining.

I welcome these changes with open arms and can't wait to explore builds beyond the usual corrosive. We have options now, CC is back and every frame is tough enough to have fun at higher levels....adding that difficulty option vets asked for simply by making arcanes powerful but not OP. Balance.

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I'm hoping the event actually lets you farm them at a reasonable pace so you can farm multiple full sets during the event. I'm never going to buy them and I refuse to farm Eidolons because I think locking them behind an absurd artificial clock is nonsense on top of the RNG. If the event sucks, I'll just continue not having useful arcanes. While I'd like to have them and I think they'd make certain (especially non-meta) frames more fun to play, I've made it 2.7k hours without any useful arcanes already, so none of them are a necessity. 

It seems like they might be launching the event against the new season of PoE if it's going to start this week, so it'll need to be rewarding if they're competing for people's attention. If it takes a long time just to get one arcane when I need 18+ of each decent set, I'd just not bother at all. Make it rain arcanes DE!

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On 2020-03-06 at 2:01 AM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

It really gives me the impression that DE just wanted to create artificial grind incentive for the new event but didnt want to come up with new rewards. 

It's clearly only for that, no need to call it an "impression". A smart [, despicable and dishonest] marketing move. Unnecessary for the players but not for the developers. 

They did a great job with the last mainline overall re-balance, that surely asked them some time investment, and i agree with them asking something in return (read: more playtime) from the players. But i also agree that arcane ranks 4-5 are really an exaggeration and a slap in the face to our previous achievements.

What i would call an "impression", strongly arisen from the Old Blood update, is that they are trying to see how low they can go with decency to keep players on the edge, just one step before leaving en masse. 

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On 2020-03-05 at 7:01 PM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

1) removing the ability to stack arcanes could have been it's own change. 

2) adjusting the efficacy of arcanes to compensate (to a point) for not having two of them didnt require creating 2 more ranks requiring 11 more arcanes. They could have simply adjusted the stats as is.

3) it doesnt seem like the "as good as 1.5 arcanes" thing is actually what we ended up with. The general consensus seems to be that guardian and energize for example are *worse* at rank 5 than they used to be at rank 3.

It really gives me the impression that DE just wanted to create artificial grind incentive for the new event but didnt want to come up with new rewards. 

And "but you still have your rank 3 set so don't complain" is not a valid argument when the old rank 3 is BETTER than the new rank 5, let alone the new rank 3. 

Bunp

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stop complaining and start farming the eidolons....

beside that, even though i can't speak for all arcanes, some r5's are better now - and that we can't 'stack' them anymore doesn't concern me much since i rarly done it anyway.

i do wish we had given a 3rd arcane slot though ^^)

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19 minutes ago, fr4gb4ll said:

stop complaining and start farming the eidolons....

beside that, even though i can't speak for all arcanes, some r5's are better now - and that we can't 'stack' them anymore doesn't concern me much since i rarly done it anyway.

i do wish we had given a 3rd arcane slot though ^^)

"Haha #*!% you go farm the thing you already farmed again because #*!% you and your time"

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

"Haha #*!% you go farm the thing you already farmed again because #*!% you and your time"

or because it's fun!

...

nah, it's not, just kidding - i also got tired of doing the trippletons over and over again (though i still do occasionally runs to keep the skillz 'honed').

still, the extra 2 ranks of those arcanes i lookt at are ok - yes even the guardian is fine with me. mostly scewed are those who don't have tons of arcanes around and could not rank them up to 5 and thus might have now only r3 versions with a little worse stats available... feels bad for al those 'power seller'... (nah, that's a lie, i'm positively rof'ling about that ^^)

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