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RIP Shotguns


General_Durandal
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35 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

My poor, poor, Strun Wraith, not one-shotting everything anymore. T-T

The hilarious part is that, as I predicted, this patch would end up buffing weapons that were already high tier, in addition to nerfing low tier status shotguns.

It didn't pan out exactly the way I expected though... Ironically the Tigris Prime is stronger than before, and the Phantasma is weaker now- Not because it was nerfed, it actually is one of the few shotties that can actually hit 100% still. Rather, with status effects and enemy armor scaling both being nerfed, there's just better options now.

Mara Detron has also fallen behind. Mostly pure status shotguns (and to a lesser extent pure status weapons in general) got dumpstered. Shotties like the Kuva Brakk, conversely, either got better or stayed the same. Anything crit got buffed. Shotgun or otherwise. Viral/Heat Ignis Wraith has completely and totally left the Arca Plasmor behind now.

I feel like everything they were trying to accomplish this patch, they somehow accomplished the opposite. Whatever, new meta I guess. Sucks to be anyone who liked the old one.

Edited by XaoGarrent
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Currently Phantasma can't hit 100%. It was earlier, but it may have been a UI glitch just like the other weapons (khom with 300% for example), because using it I could see it wasn't close to 100% on status. Then they did a hotfix for things and it changed to this.

 

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Edited by Ploidz
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The phantasma is just sad after this update. It now takes like 5 full magazines to kill one lv90 railjack enemy in my case, with a +damage +toxin riven and primed mods. So i hope its fixed since that gun is pretty much my favorite. I'm not sure why they nuked its status chance, given that its a beam gun rather than a shotgun and its crit chance is nearly nonexistent on top of that.

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4 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

The hilarious part is that, as I predicted, this patch would end up buffing weapons that were already high tier, in addition to nerfing low tier status shotguns.

It didn't pan out exactly the way I expected though... Ironically the Tigris Prime is stronger than before, and the Phantasma is weaker now- Not because it was nerfed, it actually is one of the few shotties that can actually hit 100% still. Rather, with status effects and enemy armor scaling both being nerfed, there's just better options now.

Yeah, like folks were explaining the first time, any shotgun that wasn't at 100% status chance modded did get a buff to its status chance, but since Corrosive caps at 10 procs now, raw numbers of procs aren't as special anymore. 

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13 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Yeah, like folks were explaining the first time, any shotgun that wasn't at 100% status chance modded did get a buff to its status chance, but since Corrosive caps at 10 procs now, raw numbers of procs aren't as special anymore. 

I described the mathmatics that they're now using to you before the patch, in excruciating detail. I even went and dug up the old formula, and explained how and why the new one compares, I even named and predicted the gun that was going to get shafted the hardest correctly.

Y'know what, you really are hopeless.

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12 hours ago, Dexlmentia said:

How is that weapon stronger with its new base status chance?

Tigris Prime's situation is a little more complicated in that it is one of those status shotguns that existed very close to the line where it could hit 100% status, but shoehorned you into using blast damage. Basically, you can slot one less status mod now and get less, but better procs under the new system. This isn't enough to help, and actually badly hurts shotguns like the Strun Wraith, but it helps weapons that had something else going for them besides just massive status. 

Tigris Prime also leans excessively hard on its exceedingly high base damage, these sorts of weapons suffered under the old armor scaling if they couldn't get some status or crit. Even pure crit weapons had this problem past a certain level.

12 hours ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Guys, change your builds, most of the Pellet based weapons are actually stronger

It's a real shame that many of these weapons don't have other builds they can do. At least nothing good, anyway.

"Change your weapons" is more accurate here, for the losers of this patch.

Edited by XaoGarrent
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2 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

It's a real shame that many of these weapons don't have other builds they can do. At least nothing good, anyway.

"Change your weapons" is more accurate here, for the losers of this patch.

Well, I still can't really testify if that's true or not since I didn't have the time to try some of those yet, so you might be right

But, to be fair, I think not having to rely on Corrosive and statuses procs so much is a positive change for the game. The very unfortunate, negative situation that we're in right now, however, is that there basically no alternatives- Gas got nerfed to the ground, magentic and radiation's procs are basically useless, Blast has some of the worst dmg bonuses, and Viral is now overwhelmingly stronger than any other Element since it basically has the whole package- Good procs, no reliant on too many procs, and good dmg bonuses. O, and you can combine it with Heat, which instantly melts 50% armor when corrosive caps at 80% after 10 procs .....

 

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2 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

No, that was @(XB1)TehChubbyDugan. And me, for that matter.

No, you REPEATED what I had already laid out. Before that, you kept repeating what you heard on stream with no greater understanding of it. I had to go and dig up the original shotgun formula, because nobody else actually had the brains to do so, and then translate what was on the stream into practical terms because apparently nobody could stop for two seconds and actually do it for themselves.

Are you by any chance schizophrenic? I'm serious. That would explain a lot.

Edited by XaoGarrent
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45 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:
5 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Yeah, like folks were explaining the first time, any shotgun that wasn't at 100% status chance modded did get a buff to its status chance, but since Corrosive caps at 10 procs now, raw numbers of procs aren't as special anymore. 

I described the mathmatics that they're now using to you before the patch, in excruciating detail. I even went and dug up the old formula, and explained how and why the new one compares, I even named and predicted the gun that was going to get shafted the hardest correctly.

Y'know what, you really are hopeless.

: haha :

 

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10 hours ago, General_Durandal said:

My poor, poor, Strun Wraith, not one-shotting everything anymore. T-T

I too, am saddened by the condition of the Strunzor.  Also the Euphona alt-fire.   

Hopefully they're having another look at some of the worst-affected weapons.

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Yeah, the great thing about making status chance for all shotguns work like everything else in the game is that the balance of the individual weapons can be still be adjusted. How much that matters in the new status meta where other guns can proc twice on the same bullet and all statuses cap at 10 also remains to be seen, but. 

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Its funny that this was supposed to make status weapons more competitive compared to crit. So far this seems to have the opposite effect on anything that doesn't come with a high crit chance along with decent status chance. Pure status weapons in general are no longer worth it due to the caps on status effects from what i've seen. Even stuff like slash felt heavily nerfed during my testing. All other damaging procs seem to be complete garbage in comparison, tho i haven't tested pure toxin yet. But gas is nerfed to death until they fix it and burning damage was never all that high, but right now its at least better than gas i guess.

Bring a decently high fire rate weapon and you can max out the viral or corrosive procs easily even without great status chance. But to actually exploit those procs you now need high damage, which is best done with crit. So the optimal build should be high crit, viral and heat damage on a high fire rate, area of effect weapon. That should work well against any faction as well.

Just compare the phantasmas damage against something like the zhuge prime.

Edited by Vahenir
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5 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

And you then continued arguing with me that it was wrong? = .

That wasn't even the argument at that point.

At that point you were arguing a point of absolutely no consequence, which is a deeply fallacious form of reasoning that people only ever engage in when they don't care about what's right, but WHO'S right, and completely missing the point that half the argument was about how the changes were going to actually pan out in reality.

And guess what? They panned out as a WORSE version of what I predicted. Everything I said was true, except high base DPS and crit shotguns came out even better (two categories that were already good to great, they just struggled to scale), resulting in an even LARGER gap than what I was expecting.

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1 minute ago, XaoGarrent said:

At that point you were arguing a point of absolutely no consequence, which is a deeply fallacious form of reasoning that people only ever engage in when they don't care about what's right, but WHO'S right, and completely missing the point that half the argument was about how the changes were going to actually pan out in reality.

The "point of no consequence" being the math you're claiming to have explained, yes. I'm saying that my confidence in your certainty of how right you were about what effects this would have on the meta and the validity of any "I told you so" depending on that is pretty slim as a result.

Shotguns work like other weapons now; if their numbers need hand-tweaking after this point, that's at least possible to do now. The 100% status shotgun meta was not going to survive the changes to how status works now regardless of correcting the status chance calculation. So find some weapons that work less well than they ought to and make noises about those. The fact that some shotguns could reach 100% status and that this made them the only shotguns worth using was not a good thing. That was not balance. And for any other shotgun that was sitting at less than 100% status before the update, it's putting out more procs in total now than it was then. If it's doing less damage now, that is purely because corrosive procs eventually stop stacking now.

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56 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

The "point of no consequence" being the math you're claiming to have explained, yes.

No, it was your ridiculous assertion that division in said math didn't count, and the pretense that it doesn't exist, because it doesn't happen during the game, but ahead of time in the spreadsheets.

And yes you DID assert that, regardless of whether you realize or wish to admit you did. Towards the end you backpeddled yourself into such a ridiculous corner because you were SO focused on proving me wrong that you were willing to engage in fallacious, ridiculous mental gymnastics. You pick your words well, but it doesn't change the conclusion regardless.

In fact, YOU'RE STILL DOING THIS.

56 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Shotguns work like other weapons now; if their numbers need hand-tweaking after this point, that's at least possible to do now.

This whole argument is carefully crafted to avoid admitting that this new standard they're holding shotguns to is NOT IN FACT enforced anywhere else in game. The only possible situation where you're correct is that the devs are SO incompetent that they screwed up the math monumentally on a great deal of well known and understood weapons and never bothered to fix it. WHICH IS PROBABLY TO SOME DEGREE THE CASE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU OVERCOMPLICATE THINGS IN THE BALANCING PROCESS.

Yes, they could hand tweak all the shotguns. They could also move all the chairs around in their office randomly for no reason, every morning, when they arrive at work. If everything needed to be manually adjusted anyway, what they did is jumping through far more hoops mathematically than just eliminating the part where they inflate the status value and divide it by pellets.

Two things are going to happen from this point on if they want to get ACTUAL balance: Status numbers are going to be inflated back to 100% for almost all the shotties this change effected, making the whole thing a pointless release on its own, that served to do nothing but cripple a bunch of fine weapons until they can do ANOTHER rework...

Or there's going to be nerfs. Lots and lots of nerfs. Everywhere, across every weapon category, to status. Which will completely destroy pure status weapon's viability, and quite a lot of hybrid weapons with it.

Just do a PPS comparison between the Twin Grakata and the Corinth, FFS. If the old way status worked was THAT much of a problem, the Twin Grakata would actually need to eat a nerf and have LESS status per bullet than it does now. This weapon, despite having... What is it 5.5? Because it got changed due to multishot too... Basically, it's very close to the Corinth's status now, except it has WELL over three times the "pellet" output. DESPITE actually being a highly comparable weapon in most other statistical regards. Even its use case is half similar due to the Corinth having an incredibly tight cone, making it less viable as a street sweeper.

...That reminds me I need to test the Twin Grakata with some new builds.

Edited by XaoGarrent
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57 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

No, it was your ridiculous assertion that division in said math didn't count, and the pretense that it doesn't exist, because it doesn't happen during the game, but ahead of time in the spreadsheets.

And yes you DID assert that, regardless of whether you realize or wish to admit you did. Towards the end you backpeddled yourself into such a ridiculous corner because you were SO focused on proving me wrong that you were willing to engage in fallacious, ridiculous mental gymnastics. You pick your words well, but it doesn't change the conclusion regardless.

The one thing I didn't notice is where you'd got the "dividing by the pellets" thing, and that really is where they got their approximation for unmodded status. As noted in the other thread, you can actually reverse the statistical math and get an exact per-pellet status chance instead, and they hew close to one another at the lower end - a 10% chance for one proc in 10 pellets really does match a 1% per-pellet chance, a 20% in 10 chances really does match 2% per chance, and so on. 

But yeah, I'm not backpedaling anything, I did in fact say that giving a shotgun the wrong status chance would not mean that the status chance calculation was wrong, and I will continue to say that, because it's still true. They did remove the bad math, which had actual functional effects in modding. It resulted in abysmal per-pellet status chance in practice for low-status shotguns and did need to go. Independent of the numbers assigned to a particular gun, the calculation of what mods do has to be consistent, and you can't get twice as many procs for the second 60/60 you put on as you did for the first. 

57 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

This whole argument is carefully crafted to avoid admitting that this new standard they're holding shotguns to is NOT IN FACT enforced anywhere else in game. 

Yes, it is. This is the thing I don't understand how you're still arguing about. Look at any burst rifle. Individual per-projectile chance is the norm for everything in Warframe. You're making the argument in this post on procs per second, which is fine, and we can compare these things, but the only thing "new" is that they're using the same status math as everything else. 

57 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

The only possible situation where you're correct is that the devs are SO incompetent that they screwed up the math monumentally on a great deal of well known and understood weapons and never bothered to fix it. WHICH IS PROBABLY TO SOME DEGREE THE CASE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU OVERCOMPLICATE THINGS IN THE BALANCING PROCESS.

They owned up to the monumental brokenness of the math in the devstream. It's not that they "never bothered" to fix it, though; they knew damn well the moment they did, they'd have responses like yours to deal with. They were pretty explicit about the fact that they've known the math was bad for a long time but didn't want to nerf shotguns. 

57 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Two thingsare going to happen from this point on if they want to get ACTUAL balance: Status numbers are going to be inflated back to 100% for almost all the shotties this change effected, making the whole thing a pointless release on its own, that served to do nothing but cripple a bunch of fine weapons until they can do ANOTHER rework...

That would in no way be pointless. There are a lot of shotguns that couldn't reach 100% status before. Every shotgun that could reach 100% status now had exactly the same status chance, and the only variation in procs per second was the number of pellets in a shot and the number of shots per second. So if you do a balancing pass and some of those weapons now have 50% status chance modded and some have 120%, then they have, like every other weapon, a range of possible status chances. 

Edit: And now the status chance reflect the actual amount of damage that will land on DoT effects as well. Again, only true previously on 100% status, so your bleeds and gas and whatnot were universally garbage on any other shotgun.

So in toto, if procs per second are too restricted on shotguns now, that's a possible thing to argue about, and independent of all the rest. Stop blaming the math though. The guns were balanced based on bad math in the first place and if they need rebalancing, that can happen now. 

Edited by CopperBezel
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8 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

The one thing I didn't notice is where you'd got the "dividing by the pellets" thing, and that really is where they got their approximation for unmodded status. As noted in the other thread, you can actually reverse the statistical math and get an exact per-pellet status chance instead, and they hew close to one another at the lower end - a 10% chance for one proc in 10 pellets really does match a 1% per-pellet chance, a 20% in 10 chances really does match 2% per chance, and so on. 

And as I stated, before I went and dug up the math that NOBODY ELSE SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO, despite being SO SURE Of themselves and running their mouth in disagreement with me...

NONE OF THIS ACTUALLY MATTERS. It is, both before and after, a mathmatical standard that is NOT applied to ANY other class of weapons in the game. You can find INDIVIDUAL EXAMPLES where it roughly works out that way, but there are as many of those as there are cases of weapons where it DOES NOT, which proves you DEMONSTRABLY WRONG.

The ENTIRE POINT is that this has NEVER BEEN ABOUT THE ACTUAL MATH, you've been MAKING IT about that, because what this conversation has been about the ENTIRE TIME, which is the PRACTICAL REALITY THAT THESE BALANCE CHOICES CREATE FOR SHOTGUNS is NOT THE SAME AS OTHER WEAPON CLASSES, AS YOU BOTH EXPLICITLY STATE AND IMPLY REPEATEDLY.

THIS is part of that ARGUMENT OF NO CONSEQUENCE. THIS is why I keep telling you RUN SOME ACTUAL COMPARISONS. You start running into problem cases almost IMMEDIATELY that demonstrate that for things to be "the same" between weapon categories, A SECOND MASSIVE WEAPON REWORK/STATUS OVERHAUL WOULD BE REQUIRED.

Edited by XaoGarrent
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20 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

And as I stated, before I went and dug up the math that NOBODY ELSE SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO, despite being SO SURE Of themselves and running their mouth in disagreement with me...

My first long(winded) explanation of how the old status calculation worked was before your first post in the thread, and was a longer and possibly more opaque version of the OP's. I still don't know what you mean by "the math". It isn't the point, but it's ... grating. 

25 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

NONE OF THIS ACTUALLY MATTERS. It is, both before and after, a mathmatical standard that is NOT applied to ANY other class of weapons in the game. You can find INDIVIDUAL EXAMPLES where it roughly works out that way, but there are as many of those as there are cases of weapons where it DOES NOT, which proves you DEMONSTRABLY WRONG.

The ENTIRE POINT is that this has NEVER BEEN ABOUT THE ACTUAL MATH, you've been MAKING IT about that, because what this conversation has been about the ENTIRE TIME, which is the PRACTICAL REALITY THAT THESE BALANCE CHOICES CREATE FOR SHOTGUNS is NOT THE SAME AS OTHER WEAPON CLASSES, AS YOU BOTH EXPLICITLY STATE AND IMPLY REPEATEDLY.

Okay, then let's stop talking about the old, broken math and start talking about the practical balance for weapon classes. And specifically shotguns as a firing mode, not as a weapon mod category, because the Detron is a pistol that used to use the old math, while the Kohm is a primary that never did. The only advantages shotguns have over rifles of the same fire rate and status chance are the ability to have multiple procs per shot for stacking effects like Corrosive (no difference at all for DoTs) and the ability to inflict that proc before the damage for the next pellet to hit is calculated, which together are no different from the benefit of just having a much higher fire rate, more procs per second. 

The Tigris Prime has a per-pellet base status chance of 11.3%. That means that with two 60/60s, it's sitting right under 25%, meaning about two procs per round before multishot for the sake of effects like Corrosive and Viral, and only a quarter of its damage contributing to DoT procs. That's pretty bad! It should almost certainly be buffed! In fact, it shouldn't have bad enough to require bad math to save it previously, but here we are. 

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31 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

My first long(winded) explanation of how the old status calculation worked was before your first post in the thread, and was a longer and possibly more opaque version of the OP's. I still don't know what you mean by "the math". It isn't the point, but it's ... grating. 

Okay, then let's stop talking about the old, broken math and start talking about the practical balance for weapon classes. And specifically shotguns as a firing mode, not as a weapon mod category, because the Detron is a pistol that used to use the old math, while the Kohm is a primary that never did. The only advantages shotguns have over rifles of the same fire rate and status chance are the ability to have multiple procs per shot for stacking effects like Corrosive (no difference at all for DoTs) and the ability to inflict that proc before the damage for the next pellet to hit is calculated, which together are no different from the benefit of just having a much higher fire rate, more procs per second. 

The Tigris Prime has a per-pellet base status chance of 11.3%. That means that with two 60/60s, it's sitting right under 25%, meaning about two procs per round before multishot for the sake of effects like Corrosive and Viral, and only a quarter of its damage contributing to DoT procs. That's pretty bad! It should almost certainly be buffed! In fact, it shouldn't have bad enough to require bad math to save it previously, but here we are. 

Yes you did make this about the math. Every response you've had to me from the beginning went out of its way to avoid addressing anything regarding the practical effect this change has had. You've quoted me repeatedly, carefully editing out entire sections that you know addressing honestly would reveal where you're going wrong. You want what you want in terms of changes, you'll make any argument no matter how bad faith to support it, and to hell with the immediate collateral damage. "Progress at any cost." There's a right way to do things, and this isn't it. 

We've learned that this isn't the correct way to do things from YEARS of the devs doing it and it having an adverse impact on the game as players rapidly acclimate to half baked changes, making it very difficult to effectively adjust the problems away without either pissing more people off or improvement being ignored completely (the Tonkor was already... At least high tier, even before this patch, but people, despite years going by, even after multiple buffs, couldn't get past "tonkor nerfed, tonkor sux" because the devs botched the weapon so incredibly hard).

Look, if you want to keep ignoring the point and arguing around me, that's cool and all. But let's be clear, you are not going to convince me to be pulled into your ridiculous presumptions. You're still onboarding the premise that this patch wasn't a massive half baked mistake that shouldn't have happened until a much larger pass where, at the very least shotguns, if not the full arsenal, could have been done. This is another blatant case of putting the cart before the horse.

How long did it get them to address that Ash's chinematic 4 needed to be opt in? How long did it take them to get around to pet vacuum? How long did it take us to get the first weapon overhaul? DE has a history of moving too fast and sticking things on the back burner. The correct course of action is they roll back the changes and try again with a better approach down the road, but of course they're not going to. They're going to power on forward and stumble awkwardly into a different meta, because why wouldn't they? If I was in their position, and I had people like you defending me, I probably would too. It's easy. It requires more effort to do things right than fast.

So no, I'll not discuss anything with you. I'll discuss this with other people, but you're so disingenuous and frustrating that I'm putting you on ignore. It's frankly easier to just dumpster old meta weapons and loadouts, and play the new meta, than it is to try to talk reason into a bunch of people who insist on arguing around me. So goodbye and have a nice life.

Edited by XaoGarrent
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1 hour ago, XaoGarrent said:

Yes you did make this about the math. 

I see how you read the bit you're responding to here now, but I wasn't referring to making things about the math when I said "I still don't know what you mean by 'the math'" - I meant the phrase in the quotation I was responding to, what it was you felt you'd dug up.

1 hour ago, XaoGarrent said:

You're still onboarding the premise that this patch wasn't a massive half baked mistake that shouldn't have happened until a much larger pass where, at the very least shotguns, if not the full arsenal, could have been done.

Correct. A Tigris Prime with two 60/60 mods is better off under the new calculation - five times better actually, from 5% to 25% chance per pellet - and shotgun status is still bad, but it's less bad than it was previously outside of the 100% meta. It is only that meta that's been nerfed. 

Edited by CopperBezel
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