Jump to content
Jade Shadows: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Heavy Grineer Knockdowns Shouldn't Be Unavoidable


-Mira-
 Share

Recommended Posts

I can jump at a Heavy Gunner, dive-kick, knock her down, kill her while still airborne using the ignis glitch, or otherwise using high enough damage weapons against a low enough level unit, and then my frame still gets knocked out of the air by the shockwave emitted from her crumpled corpse.

 

Right now, the only way to engage heavy Grineer close up is to take a dive and let them ground slam you then wait an hour for your frame to  pick itself up and dust itself off, or try to run just into the trigger radius then sprint out again, which tends to take more time because of how finicky it is, and still often results in you getting knocked down.

 

Shockwave moas and Orokin box traps both have ground-slam attacks that cause knockdown, but they can be avoided by jumping as well as by killing the target before the animation completes, but for some reason the heavy Grineer slam attack knocks players even out of the air and once the animation's initiated nothing can stop it.

 

I don't think the heavies HAVING that attack is necessarily a bad thing, but there should be ways around it. First and foremost, if the unit is staggered, stunned, and especially if they're -killed- before their fist contacts the ground, the slam should not occur. It makes intuitive sense, first off, and opens up the possibility for more tactics than just "hold down left click at them from long range til they die". Stun or stagger them from a distance with guns, throwing weapons, or abilities then move in for the kill, or go for a risky divekick that'll leave you vulnerable if you miss, but leaves your target wide open if you're successful. At any rate, a collapsed or dead Grineer should not be able to produce a ground slam, it feels more like a bug than anything that they can.

 

Making that change would honestly be pretty sufficient, but being able to avoid a successful slam with well-timed evasive maneuvers, jumping, possibly rolling or blocking or something else, would also be a good addition and make sense with existing shockwave mechanics.

 

 

The Shield Lancer has some similar issues (being able to knock down tenno who are behind them to the side, for instance), but that might be worth another thread entirely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with OP 100%.  I have been annoyed by those heavy slams since day 1.  I've never said anything because I didn't want to complain too much, but these kinds of things always annoy me in games.  So many times I will race past a heavy, slide, and be clearly about 25 in game meters away, across the frickin room, and then the fist hits the ground and down I go.  This reminds me very much of a similar problem in Skyrim.  When finishing moves were performed on the player, you would often die even though you could easily have dodged that attack, downed a potion, anything.  Both of these games calculate it this way:  the computer takes a look at where you are the very instant the attack begins, and if you are within range, it connects.  PERIOD.  Even if you are easily able to get yourself well out of range before the attack resolves, doesn't matter; hits you anyway.  I could rant about such things in games for a long time.  I'll stop myself now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think the heavies HAVING that attack is necessarily a bad thing, but there should be ways around it. First and foremost, if the unit is staggered, stunned, and especially if they're -killed- before their fist contacts the ground, the slam should not occur. It makes intuitive sense, first off, and opens up the possibility for more tactics than just "hold down left click at them from long range til they die". Stun or stagger them from a distance with guns, throwing weapons, or abilities then move in for the kill, or go for a risky divekick that'll leave you vulnerable if you miss, but leaves your target wide open if you're successful. At any rate, a collapsed or dead Grineer should not be able to produce a ground slam, it feels more like a bug than anything that they can.

i've always thought the same thing. 

the other ground attacks can be hopped over, but Grineer Heavies do not follow this logic.

Extra Credits has a great video on

.

due to outnumbering votes, ground knockdown shockwaves can be jumped over, all except for the one that Grineer Heavies create. but, two other factions' shockwaves can be. but instead, the Grineer Heavy has a magic spell that creates a sphere of knockdown. and they can also do it post-mortem, which is even more bizzare.

this sphere of knockdown i might add, due to it's radius, is like, friggin 10m above the Heavy unit. i mean, seriously? i'm basically an entire floor above the enemy, and it can still knock me down. the shockwave shape should atleast be a hockey puck, if not just a flat circle.

 

 

also, a tactic some players might think of, such as stepping into the range, and then using a mobility melee to spindash away, doesn't even seem to work. i can be clearly(on my screen) halfway across the room, but due to ping, still get knocked down.

also, for that matter, usually when i try to avoid the knockdown, when i ultimately get knocked down anyways, my character spins in a circle in the air. the f*ck?

 

They aren't completely unavoidable, certain abilities, timed correctly, allow you to get around the knockdown, but it's annoying that once within the radius of attack it's impossible to escape it.

it shouldn't require you to cast some not currently useful power to exploit the fact that said power happens to have immunity during the casting animation.

for that matter, every power in the game doesn't do it, so it's not something that can be considered a part of the game and taught to players.

 

 

I find it fun to kick heavies while they slam. In the Void if you kick them over they enter Ragdoll mode, and the physics from the shockwave affects them too.

i managed to do that once by accident. i was stunned. literally, not in the game. i giggled a bit but ultimately, it was a Heavy Gunner somewhere i couldn't shoot it, instead of where i could see it and could :p

 

i've also never personally thought to roll or etc when a shockwave happens. you know why? it makes no sense, and defies the purpose of having such a thing in the game.. it's a shockwave. it exists solely to knock you down. if i roll/other acrobatic maneuver, i'm still in the damn shockwave. there is no logic to that.

it should be either, you're in the shockwave without a power/card(or Iron Skin) to resist at the moment of happening, or you're not inside it, and all is free. if i'm in the shockwaves' area, and have no mod or power to resist the knockdown, i WANT to be knocked down. because it follows the logic of the shockave.

Edited by taiiat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would it be better if the "shockwave" the heavies produced were the same in effect but looked different to it's function? I find it's the heavy enemies few traits that actually make it threatening. It doesn't even follow up properly after knocking you down, if it did the heavies would be a true threat. Right now they are just dudes that look funnier than everyone else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fortitude + SureFooted

 

Good luck if you're not the host.

 

On topic: Rush + freeze mod on a ranged weapon makes ground pounds less of a thread. Also, a jump kick from behind will allow you to disable that heavy for at least 2 to 3 seconds, but only if he hasn't started the animation yet.

 

I don't think it should be a lot easier to interrupt, but I'd be for making it a ground "2D" attack only instead of a spherical attack. Additionally, I think the pound should only be interruptable from behind with a knockdown ability, like jump kick or some melee aerial attacks. That's how I would nerf the ability.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is kind of annoying how powerful the knockdown is, but atleast they only do it once. My plan for them (if fighting close range) is to cast an ability as they're doing the ground slam. If you're in the middle of your cast animation you won't get knocked down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Totally agree. I even find myself getting knocked down when I've rushed passed a heavy and I'm 150+ feet away because I was in the radius at the time of the initial knockdown ability's animation. Basically, when the actual ground pound occurs I won't even be close, but I'll still get knocked down. I'll even be in a different room.

Some type of dodge or block mechanic would be more fun. Anything within the game mechanics where skill can be implemented should be a good thing. Getting knocked down too automatically is just an annoyance.

Edited by TrevV
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems odd to me that Shockwave MOAs that rely entirely on their knockdown ability and and fairly fragile broadcast their intent clearly and even allow you to jump it. Meanwhile, Heavy Grineers that have a devastating ranged attack and high resilience have a knockdown as a backup ability that is essentially unavoidable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i've always thought the same thing. 

the other ground attacks can be hopped over, but Grineer Heavies do not follow this logic.

Extra Credits has a great video on

.

due to outnumbering votes, ground knockdown shockwaves can be jumped over, all except for the one that Grineer Heavies create. but, two other factions' shockwaves can be. but instead, the Grineer Heavy has a magic spell that creates a sphere of knockdown. and they can also do it post-mortem, which is even more bizzare.

this sphere of knockdown i might add, due to it's radius, is like, friggin 10m above the Heavy unit. i mean, seriously? i'm basically an entire floor above the enemy, and it can still knock me down. the shockwave shape should atleast be a hockey puck, if not just a flat circle.

 

 

also, a tactic some players might think of, such as stepping into the range, and then using a mobility melee to spindash away, doesn't even seem to work. i can be clearly(on my screen) halfway across the room, but due to ping, still get knocked down.

also, for that matter, usually when i try to avoid the knockdown, when i ultimately get knocked down anyways, my character spins in a circle in the air. the f*ck?

 

it shouldn't require you to cast some not currently useful power to exploit the fact that said power happens to have immunity during the casting animation.

for that matter, every power in the game doesn't do it, so it's not something that can be considered a part of the game and taught to players.

 

 

i managed to do that once by accident. i was stunned. literally, not in the game. i giggled a bit but ultimately, it was a Heavy Gunner somewhere i couldn't shoot it, instead of where i could see it and could :p

 

i've also never personally thought to roll or etc when a shockwave happens. you know why? it makes no sense, and defies the purpose of having such a thing in the game.. it's a shockwave. it exists solely to knock you down. if i roll/other acrobatic maneuver, i'm still in the damn shockwave. there is no logic to that.

it should be either, you're in the shockwave without a power/card(or Iron Skin) to resist at the moment of happening, or you're not inside it, and all is free. if i'm in the shockwaves' area, and have no mod or power to resist the knockdown, i WANT to be knocked down. because it follows the logic of the shockave.

 

I'll reply to each paragraph separately:

1. The Heavy's shockwave works like a real explosive shockwave. Traveling through the ground makes no sense anyway. I really don't see why people complain about this. It being shaped like a hockey puck wouldn't make sense and is an unnecessary nerf. 

2. Lag isn't the enemy's fault. Nerfing an enemy because of what lag turns it into is a horrible idea.

3. 'Some not currently useful power'? No, Invisibility is definitely useful. Especially when you're closing into melee distance. Just learn to time backflips.

4. Okay.

5. The acrobatic maneuvers are there (in this game) specifically to allow dodging. How can you say you don't want backflips to allow immunity, yet also claim you want the shockwave to work in a wave that completely defies how an explosion usually works? This double standard is confusing. You want to be knocked down... yet you don't... wut

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems odd to me that Shockwave MOAs that rely entirely on their knockdown ability and and fairly fragile broadcast their intent clearly and even allow you to jump it. Meanwhile, Heavy Grineers that have a devastating ranged attack and high resilience have a knockdown as a backup ability that is essentially unavoidable.

 

Shockwave MOAs are hardly on the same 'tier' as heavy grineer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as I know, well timed backflips (probably rolls too) negate the knockdown. As do certain abilities (as AXCrusnik said), an example of one ability that negates it is Loki's invisibility. I'm not sure what the timing necessary is, but I always manage to pull it off.

Using Vauban's abilities just before knockdown/knockback also negates the effect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Think it'd be sweet if instead of the cheesy stun lock they instead had a few melee animations/attacks+parrying abilities so if you try and rush past instead of full knocking you down they'd stagger you very briefly to break your momentum and then follow up with a melee attack that we could parry if we're quick enough.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In normal gameplay this doesn't bother me at all because heavies are fairly far apart enough for me to be able to react and counteract their knockdowns. But, in survival, I was just thoroughly owned with my five-formaed Saryn because I kept being knocked around by heavies. Yes, I didn't lose the mission because I died or because my weapons weren't strong enough, I was thoroughly "knock-locked" for a solid minute.

 

The worst faction is the Grineer in this regard, because they have FIVE different units with the same alternate knockdown attack, second comes the infested with their three heavies which not only knock you down, but sap your energy or poison you. The only answer I've found to how to counter-act this is to either output enough DPS to annihilate everything around you (ie, only use OP weapons which is damned boring) or to pop iron skin with Rhino over and over which is even more boring. But, until DE decides to do something about this, that is the only tactic I can think of to counteract this problem.

 

So yeah, for my solo, I'm now going to forma my Rhino, equip my Soma and my twin gremlins, it's cheese time....

 

Edit:

 

I just came back from another survival on Appollodorus where I first got owned with Saryn. With my newly formaed Rhino at a paltry level 3, I used Iron skin a total of five times through each of these fifteen minutes. It felt liberating to actually now have the time to fight my enemies and even with Rhinos horrible sprint speed in comparison with Saryns fluid running, I had no problems at all reaching the support beacons in time. The fact that my simple elimination of knockdowns made survival trivial proves to me that this isn't a problem with my skills.

Edited by Hap-muhr
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only because I feel like the few enemies we have that actually pose a threat shouldn't be nerfed. Maybe they can be nerfed when we get a larger amount of enemies that provide a variable amount of actual threats. Grineer rollers are annoying yes, but I never felt like I had to legitimately worry about them. Even the heavies. While yes they hit very hard, they also go down really fast. Even during low level missions, the heavy never felt that "heavy" when I was still a young tenno. They have a low presence level considering they are the closest thing to a mini boss. If they are to remain the way they are, we need even stronger enemy varieties than them. Maybe grineer can whip out more Lt.Krils with more vulnerability periods, just so for once, you'll actually be thankful you have a team.

 

I mean, with all things considering, The grineer and corpus study tenno weaponry and warframes themselves. You'd think they would have more "anti-tenno" measures. What kind of empire doesn't adapt some kind of measure to stop what are essentially what is capable of killing entire armies and superior officers in a matter of minutes?

Edited by Vigilance
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...