Why kill Gas?

[(PSN)SrebX]

Why would you do it? Why would you nerf Gas this badly?

Most people who play Warframe didn't even know that Gas is powerful and competes at high lvls,so it wasn't very popular.
It was also only competitive up to lvl ~100 or so, and then it started to fall off because of armor

So it wasn't very popular, it wasn't THAT strong, it only added some build diversity.
Now Gas is useless and nerfed to the ground, and every build that ever relied on Gas is now useless. Build diversity is at an all time low.

Why? What's the reason to nerf it that badly?
I've heard some voices in the buildcraft community saying DE nerfed Gas out of incompetence- They're claiming that DE honestly didn't know what made Gas strong and they did it by accident. Personally I can't possibly believe our devs would be THAT incompetent, as in not knowing the ramifications of their own changes, But I honestly can't see a better explanation... 

[Skaleek]

Just eat yo beans. Gas will never die. #MyCubicleNeighboursHateMe.

Also I had shawarma for lunch.

[Uhkretor]

DE - "Gas now deals the intended Gas Damage after Gas Proc, instead the previously unintended but necessary placeholder band-aid of Toxin Damage."

OP - "Gas is dead"

Spoiler

[(PSN)SrebX]

17 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

DE - "Gas now deals the intended Gas Damage after Gas Proc, instead the previously unintended but necessary placeholder band-aid of Toxin Damage."

OP - "Gas is dead"

  Reveal hidden contents

1. Look up Gas bonuses dmg and Toxin dmg bonuses. Gas is overwhelmingly worse. You basically have 50% penalty for most of the enemies you care about

2. Gas now works differently. No longi s there a Cloud that contaminates the area, but now the the individual enemy that got the proc acts as a "grenade" and pulses dmg out, which means that if the enemies scatter the enemies aren't feeding off of each other's dmg anymore.

All of those mean that gas'es niche, which was the AoE option that's strong in a group, no longer exists.

Btw, if you haven't tested what I'm talking about or aren't aware of what made Gas as strong as it was, you're welcome to hold your ignorant memes to yourself

 

[Gailus]

45 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

DE - "Gas now deals the intended Gas Damage after Gas Proc, instead the previously unintended but necessary placeholder band-aid of Toxin Damage."

OP - "Gas is dead"

Okay. A placeholder isn't a placeholder anymore when it's existed for over 7 years. That's like saying my dad's Social Security Card that has a line on it saying "Not to be used for personal identification" is just a placeholder for when the real Personal Identification system is created.

Back on topic though.

The old Gas status had a number of strengths that were taken out in this update and replaced with only a long list of weaknesses.

Previous Gas Proc Strengths:

1. Converted to Toxin. Allowed for Ferrite Armor to be partially bypassed. Fully Bypassed shields
2. Toxin mods and faction mods were taken into account for applying a damage multiplier that came out to:
   ((1 + [Toxin Mod Bonus} + [Faction Mod Bonus]) / 2)^2
3. Applied a Damage over Time affect to everything in the radius at the time of the Gas proc. So if the initial target died the proc still had value. This lets high damage low fire rate guns had a status that actively capitalized off of their strengths and isn't hampered by the low status-per-second at high levels.

New Gas Proc Weaknesses:

1. Stays as Gas damage. This provides a -50% damage penalty against Grineers' Cloned Flesh after being reduced by armor and also receives a -25% damage penalty against Corpus Flesh along with not bypassing shields. 
2. The proc does not apply a DoT and is instead a damaging aura that enemies can simply walk away from. This prevents it from working well against mobile enemies and lowers the status' value with high damage low fire rate weapons. Status-per-second is vastly more important.
3. The damage does not linger after the main target dies. This removes Gas's unique niche of being the status that worked well in groups almost completely.
4. Whatever the current damage formula is for Gas procs, it appears to at least be missing that "^2" exponent in the multiplier, and calling that an extreme nerf is putting it lightly.

As Gas currently stands, using straight Toxin or Heat works much better in every use case. Neither can affect a group, but they both require less mod space and aren't being resisted multiple times over.

Electricity is also a better alternative as a multitarget status as its damage accumulates the same way as the Heat status, stuns the main target in place so the effect lingers where its created, it shocks everything that comes near the main target for all of the accumulated damage, the damage type isn't resisted multiple times over, and it requires less mod space. It otherwise has all of the same weaknesses as Gas, but actually doing damage makes it okay.

[SadOverlord]

9 minutes ago, Gailus said:

Okay. A placeholder isn't a placeholder anymore when it's existed for over 7 years. That's like saying my dad's Social Security Card that has a line on it saying "Not to be used for personal identification" is just a placeholder for when the real Personal Identification system is created.

Back on topic though.

The old Gas status had a number of strengths that were taken out in this update and replaced with only a long list of weaknesses.

Previous Gas Proc Strengths:

1. Converted to Toxin. Allowed for Ferrite Armor to be partially bypassed. Fully Bypassed shields
2. Toxin mods and faction mods were taken into account for applying a damage multiplier that came out to:
   ((1 + [Toxin Mod Bonus} + [Faction Mod Bonus]) / 2)^2
3. Applied a Damage over Time affect to everything in the radius at the time of the Gas proc. So if the initial target died the proc still had value. This lets high damage low fire rate guns had a status that actively capitalized off of their strengths and isn't hampered by the low status-per-second at high levels.

New Gas Proc Weaknesses:

1. Stays as Gas damage. This provides a -50% damage penalty against Grineers' Cloned Flesh after being reduced by armor and also receives a -25% damage penalty against Corpus Flesh along with not bypassing shields. 
2. The proc does not apply a DoT and is instead a damaging aura that enemies can simply walk away from. This prevents it from working well against mobile enemies and lowers the status' value with high damage low fire rate weapons. Status-per-second is vastly more important.
3. The damage does not linger after the main target dies. This removes Gas's unique niche of being the status that worked well in groups almost completely.
4. Whatever the current damage formula is for Gas procs, it appears to at least be missing that "^2" exponent in the multiplier, and calling that an extreme nerf is putting it lightly.

As Gas currently stands, using straight Toxin or Heat works much better in every use case. Neither can affect a group, but they both require less mod space and aren't being resisted multiple times over.

Electricity is also a better alternative as a multitarget status as its damage accumulates the same way as the Heat status, stuns the main target in place so the effect lingers where its created, it shocks everything that comes near the main target for all of the accumulated damage, the damage type isn't resisted multiple times over, and it requires less mod space. It otherwise has all of the same weaknesses as Gas, but actually doing damage makes it okay.

This. Also Gas proc damage doesn't scale with anything.

[peterc3]

36 minutes ago, Gailus said:

A placeholder isn't a placeholder anymore when it's existed for over 7 years.

Yes, it is. The game isn't set in stone.

[GKP_light]

Yes, the new formula is really bad.

I just updated the wiki : 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage/Gas_Damage

[(PSN)SrebX]

9 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Yes, it is. The game isn't set in stone.

Your logic is sound, but if the Placeholder puts the product at a better position than it's permanent form, that's just broken. 
And no, when I say 'better' I don't mean stronger, I mean healthier for the game . 

[peterc3]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

healthier for the game

Based on your perspective as a player?

[(PSN)SrebX]

19 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Based on your perspective as a player?

Based on logic.
Having an element that is very good at a specific niche while not being overwhelmingly powerful generally means you just have more options and more build diversity in a way that doesn't hurt the game. Making that element straight up bad in most situations it was good before only reduces build diversity while doing nothing good for the game. 

Again, Judging by the patch notes and the dev streams you can safely assume that the devs are trying to give different builds different niches (Changes like Slash not bypassing shields and Toxin losing it's armor bonus dmg, for example). Gas had a specific niche in being the AoE status, so this change is straight up countering the dev's agenda, so the whole thing perplexes me.

I'd really appreciate you explaining your opinion instead of cynically doubting me. I mean, maybe there was a good reason to make gas that bad and I just don't see it, but that exactly what I'm asking in this thread, so you're welcome to dispute my claim

[(XBOX)Red Dough Boy]

I could see building around corrosive, viral, radiation, and even something like magnetic against the Corpus but gas is a bit limited. The weapons I've tried gas with I've found heat is just as good if not better. Can't expect one thing to stay the same forever in this kind of game. 

 

Does it suck having to refit different things? Yes. 

Will other solutions be available? Absolutely. 

[(PSN)SrebX]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Red Dough Boy said:

Will other solutions be available? Absolutely. 

Thanks for providing a solution, but I know that and I don't need it. I asked for a reason. 

Judging by the patch notes and the dev streams you can safely assume that the devs are trying to give different builds different niches (Changes like Slash not bypassing shields and Toxin losing it's armor bonus dmg, for example). Gas had a specific niche in being the AoE status, so this change is straight up countering the dev's agenda, which makes it look like a result of straight up incompetency. All I want at this point is to know why

[(XBOX)Red Dough Boy]

1 minute ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Thanks for providing a solution, but I know that and I don't need it. I asked for a reason. 

Judging by the patch notes and the dev streams you can safely assume that the devs are trying to give different builds different niches (Changes like Slash not bypassing shields and Toxin losing it's armor bonus dmg, for example). Gas had a specific niche in being the AoE status, so this change is straight up countering the dev's agenda, which makes it look like a result of straight up incompetency. All I want at this point is to know why

One thing I can see is now blast is more reliable to use with no self damage, and falloff isn't quite as drastic since they just hotfixed it. Different elements have their time, and as far as I've used gas it's only been that good against the infested. Heat is something that's usually been good against just about anything in game so maybe it's time to try that. 

 

The only reason I can think of is that things just change in this game. 

[SadOverlord]

Most of the people commenting in this thread have no actual knowledge on what the new formula for calculating gas damage is.

[(XBOX)Red Dough Boy]

8 minutes ago, SadOverlord said:

Most of the people commenting in this thread have no actual knowledge on what the new formula for calculating gas damage is.

Sorry I prefer burning things. 

[Uhkretor]

41 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Based on logic.

... Logic dictates that Gas Procs deal Gas Damage...

Spoiler

... Which is exactly what DE did with the change, go figure...

[(PSN)SrebX]

Just now, Uhkretor said:

... Logic dictates that Gas Procs deal Gas Damage...

  Hide contents

... Which is exactly what DE did with the change, go figure...

I have just spent 2-3 comments explaining why that doesn't line up with the agenda the devs have been pushing since the game's release and even more so in the recent changes

[Uhkretor]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

I have just spent 2-3 comments explaining why that doesn't line up with the agenda the devs have been pushing since the game's release and even more so in the recent changes

... And I'm just pointing out something that's effectively....

1 hour ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Based on logic.

After all, there is absolutely no logic in having Gas Procs dealing Toxin damage on AI units, when the player is affected with Gas Damage after a Gas Proc...

Oh yeah, hold on... Let me pick something else back there...

1 hour ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Having an element that is very good at a specific niche while not being overwhelmingly powerful generally means you just have more options and more build diversity in a way that doesn't hurt the game.

I'm sorry, but modding a crappy weapon with Gas Damage and taking that crappy weapon up to lvl500 or, in most cases, higher against the faction that has the most resistances against it and cleaning up rooms like they're lvl30 or so is broken beyond measure, especially since pretty much everyone was exploiting it (DE does collect stats) due to its exponential damage output capability. That isn't "Build Diversity", its exactly the opposite.

DE finally did something about it which was, from my point of view, again...

1 hour ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

Based on logic.

DE did say that the changes would shift the Meta plate into something else. It really isn't that hard to adapt, despite the fact that people already had their broken builds in place... But like people usually say, bad habits die hard...

Spoiler

... And people tend to swim in misery than getting rid of said bad habits...

I see the change as a fix.

Slash and/or Viral -> Grineer

Toxin and/or Magnetic -> Corpus

Fire and/or Gas -> Infested

Sure, we can mix fire with Corrosive for added pain... I've always done that, even before the Fire proc changes were in place, just like I mix Magnetic with Toxin and Radiation with Cold... But Gas was the only Proc that was applying the wrong Damage type. Not only that, it had the ability to cause wrong damage output curves even to a single target... Now add the crooked nature of a player, and the end result is a never ending exploit abuse of a bug... Someone did mention that a placeholder isn't a placeholder anymore because...

2 hours ago, Gailus said:

it's existed for over 7 years.

One can point out that it wasn't a bug if it DID exist that long... However, you can never exploit a system when its working correctly. The previous Gas Proc damage was exploited even harder than the current Tridolon capture record held by the player(s) and/or squad(s) <I don't give a rat's ass>...

... I should know, I do have an Ignis Wraith modded for Gas Procs and Status Chance due to it being exploitable. So, I guess that my efforts were helpful in fixing it.

 

Thanks again, DE, and keep up with the good work of fixing archaic bugs that are as old as the game itself.

[SadOverlord]

4 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

 

  Hide contents

... And people tend to swim in misery than getting rid of said bad habits...

I see the change as a fix.

Slash and/or Viral -> Grineer

Toxin and/or Magnetic -> Corpus

Fire and/or Gas -> Infested

 

You don't even know what you're talking about. Gas is the only proc that doesn't scale with anything. Every other proc, except slash, scales. Do you know what DE has done? They changed around the formula making it scale with modded Gas. Except, well, there is no Gas mod. So it doesn't even scale. This is the main issue. Gas has to scale with Toxin and deal Gas damage. Gas damage needs not to be Host based, cause it just doesn't work with the type of game Warframe is. Keeping it the same way as the old one while making it deal Gas damage was the best thing they could do.
By the way let me tell you something: Gas is trash against infested. It was the worst faction you could bring gas into. Have you ever played Gas?
Also lol at you for thinking someone will ever use Magnetic into Corpus.
It will work like this:
Slash/Viral or Corrosive/Heat -> Grineer
Slash/Viral or Toxin -> Corpus
Slash/Viral or Heat->Infested.
Do you see a pattern? Cause I do.

[Uhkretor]

10 minutes ago, SadOverlord said:

They changed around the formula making it scale with modded Gas.

... What do you get by putting Toxin and Heat mods on a weapon?

 

You should also read my whole post, because it sorely feels like you've only read the part where I was using makeshift arrows...

[SadOverlord]

4 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... What do you get by putting Toxin and Heat mods on a weapon?

 

You should also read my whole post, because it sorely feels like you've only read the part where I was using makeshift arrows...

You get Gas, but it is not calculated for the actual proc damage scaling. They will probably fix it. Also good luck bringing old Gas into 500+ level Grineer without fullstripping their armor.

[kwlingo]

3 hours ago, (PS4)SrebX said:

1. Look up Gas bonuses dmg and Toxin dmg bonuses. Gas is overwhelmingly worse. You basically have 50% penalty for most of the enemies you care about

2. Gas now works differently. No longi s there a Cloud that contaminates the area, but now the the individual enemy that got the proc acts as a "grenade" and pulses dmg out, which means that if the enemies scatter the enemies aren't feeding off of each other's dmg anymore.

All of those mean that gas'es niche, which was the AoE option that's strong in a group, no longer exists.

Btw, if you haven't tested what I'm talking about or aren't aware of what made Gas as strong as it was, you're welcome to hold your ignorant memes to yourself

 

Interesting, thanks for the info. This could be due to fixing Saryn OP abilities. Instead of a rework. Ive been seeing lots of Saryns not doing as much DPS now.

[Uhkretor]

2 minutes ago, SadOverlord said:

Also good luck bringing old Gas into 500+ level Grineer without fullstripping their armor.

... I've got what I wanted from SO/ESO already so~ I don't need the "Gas Proc dealing Toxin Damage" exploit for it... After all, that was the only reason why I bothered with Ignis Wraith in the first place.

 

... No, my usual weaponry will do fine for what the game offers. In fact, I think I'm now having a bit more fun since Proc changes went into the logical path, with the intended proc damages... Obviously, my idea of "fun" is mine alone and it isn't a representation of "fun" for other player but its like I said... It isn't difficult to adapt, and I found no difference on Gas damage performance besides the obvious resistance against it of different units and/or factions...

... No, I think that this whole thing isn't due the fact that Gas Damage doesn't scale with the Gas mod combo. Its simply because Gas isn't dealing Toxin damage (a.k.a. the wrong elemental damage) anymore, so it can't be exploited anymore.

... I still think that they're going to adjust Gas Damage proc to scale with the Gas mod combo, to bring it inline with the rest of the damage types, and that this whole thing isn't anything more than a super tornado on a shot glass simply because people are unable to wait a few updates for it... After all, they changed a LOT of stuff and that stuff is being adjusted. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up allowing Gas damage to scale with the Gas mod combo later on.

[(XBOX)Red Dough Boy]

31 minutes ago, SadOverlord said:

You don't even know what you're talking about. Gas is the only proc that doesn't scale with anything. Every other proc, except slash, scales. Do you know what DE has done? They changed around the formula making it scale with modded Gas. Except, well, there is no Gas mod. So it doesn't even scale. This is the main issue. Gas has to scale with Toxin and deal Gas damage. Gas damage needs not to be Host based, cause it just doesn't work with the type of game Warframe is. Keeping it the same way as the old one while making it deal Gas damage was the best thing they could do.
By the way let me tell you something: Gas is trash against infested. It was the worst faction you could bring gas into. Have you ever played Gas?
Also lol at you for thinking someone will ever use Magnetic into Corpus.
It will work like this:
Slash/Viral or Corrosive/Heat -> Grineer
Slash/Viral or Toxin -> Corpus
Slash/Viral or Heat->Infested.
Do you see a pattern? Cause I do.

Because I'm lazy I usually just keep magnetic and heat on melee, works for me. It's nice not having to constantly switch back and forth and being able to kill Corpus, Grineer, and Infested with the same mod set up. 

Heat is one you can use against everything, you kind of defeat the purpose of gas by bringing up heat.