Please Remove the Stagger from Cleaving Whirlwind

[HomicidalGrouse]

7 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

What I said is that it would make it boring and mundane, just spamming one attack over the rest and not fully utilizing the fun, dynamic stance that it is

You can already do this. Removing the stagger changes nothing other than removing the control that gets periodically taken from the player.
 

7 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

DE is trying to make the game more interesting and dynamic. Removing this stagger would do the opposite.

Having a stagger at the end of a combo does nothing to make it more interesting or dynamic.
 

7 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

There is a very easy and trivial way to get around the stagger.

Which renders it unnecessary and irrelevant beyond the annoyance it demonstrates for the player.
 

7 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

Removal of the stagger would cause Tempo Royale to become irrelevant for heavy-blades in the eyes of "meta slaves"

Who are these meta slaves and where have they said they would use CW over TR if not for that blasted stagger? Literally where are they?

7 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

And having combos that launch you forward for an entire second and with more endlag than the stagger animation isn't?

No, because it's part of the increased mobility aspect of the block-combos.
 

7 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

Once again, just because CW's is more obvious doesn't mean it doesn't happen in other stances.

Name one other stance that staggers you for using it.
 

7 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

This is called the Bandwagon fallacy, yet there aren't any opinions here to bandwagon with. As stated above, nobody really cares about this. Please read up on fallacies before you attempt to call someone out on them.

It's also referred to as an argumentum ad populum, but the term used to point it out isn't relevant and doesn't make you appear smarter. You can claim whatever you want about your "500 member clan" saying this or that. I could claim my 1000 member clan all said they want it removed. It's an inherently fallacious argument, and is easily ignored. You keep trying to use how long you've played or how many people you think agree with you to prove your case. I'll absolutely point out such blatantly fallacious argumentation.

[HomicidalGrouse]

8 hours ago, (NSW)Conn1496 said:

If what we're talking about is getting to the best attacks in a combo the fastest

We're not. We're talking about an unnecessary hindrance placed upon the player for no actual reason. The animation itself is a holdover from pre-melee 3.0, when you were locked into completing combos, couldn't interrupt and then resume animations, and had less control over them. They've changed all of this while reworking melee, but kept the useless stagger that both of the people arguing against this agree is easily circumvented anyway.

I've yet to see an actual valid reason that suggests this stagger animation is necessary or even relevant. You claim it's a requirement for balance, yet admit that all you have to do is throw in slide attack, which is also a 360 degree attack that is just as powerful, and you can avoid it entirely.

It's not difficult. It's not necessary, and no other combo in the game has this imposed restriction... so DE should correct that inconsistent behavior.

[(NSW)Conn1496]

4 hours ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

The animation itself is a holdover from pre-melee 3.0, when you were locked into completing combos,

It honestly wasn't that much of a problem before 3.0 either. Cleaving Whirlwind has always been my go-to heavy blade stance since I picked up heavy blades in a serious manner. I've just honestly never had a problem with this one animation. Especially because, frankly, most things are dead by the time you even get to that animation in the first place, if you insist on using it.

4 hours ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

You claim it's a requirement for balance, yet admit that all you have to do is throw in slide attack,

You don't have to throw in anything. You can literally just stop pressing buttons for a short moment. It's a simple timing element that simulates endlag for what is otherwise a completely spammable crowd-clearing combo, and it really doesn't use up too much time to pause unless you mistime it and get the stagger anyway (which you can "recover" from with a roll anyway as mentioned before). It's something that new players will get used to, and learn as they use the weapon - as they should learn when to not mash with other melees (See previous Dagger and Gunblade examples.). So either you have gotten used to it, and it's not a real issue, or you haven't and you realistically need to improve. I don't think that's an unfair assessment to make.

--and no, it's not a "requirement" for balance, it's a choice DE made so that the weapon isn't a "mash to win", braindead tool, something they've been pretty vocal about trying to fix. I feel like the alternative balance decision would be to just lower the reward on Broken Bull, which is the stance's go-to combo (at least IMO), and would be an unnecessary nerf. Ease of use is something that you trade for with lower power and vice versa, and that's not even exclusive to melee. So there's a clear precedent for more precise weapons being stronger at the expense of not being crowd-clearers, and that's why weapons that break that mold (by being powerful crowd clearers, most likely) are considered the best of the best, even if they're clunky in other ways - which sounds a lot like the way the Broken Bull combo is balanced, to me (Also see: The Lanka, as a primary weapon example. Its charged shot and precision weapon nature as downsides don't stop it being a great Eidolon killing pick, because it makes up for those ease of use weaknesses with power.).

4 hours ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

It's not difficult.

So then, when it comes down to it, why are you complaining? Your argument is that it's an unnecessary hindrance forced upon the player, but it's apparently not hard to work around either. So which is it? By your own admission then, this is not actually a big enough hindrance to warrant removal. Unless your real complaint is "I can't mash this combo like other combos", which is something I've said that good players realistically shouldn't be doing anyway, at least not to be optimal in every scenario.

All I'm saying is that: If the stagger is unnecessary (as many tools are in Warframe, even within the specific context of melee combos), then why are you actively using it? If you admit yourself (and by extension agree with what other people are saying) that it's not hard to avoid, then just avoid it. If it is hard for you to avoid, then there are easier stances to use. Even within this thread, people have said that Tempo Royale is comparable in strength for heavy blades, and maybe even better than Cleaving Whirlwind, and likely is less clunky to use.

[HomicidalGrouse]

26 minutes ago, (NSW)Conn1496 said:

Your argument is that it's an unnecessary hindrance forced upon the player, but it's apparently not hard to work around either. So which is it?

These things are not mutually exclusive. they are both true. As I've said numerous times in this thread, it takes control away from the player, which is unique to this particular stance mod, and it should be removed to make the stance consistent with every other stance in the game. The ability to easily avoid it isn't relevant. You could easily avoid the Profit-Taker's knockdown attack as well, yet DE saw fit to increase the cooldown because it was an annoyance for players. I'm making the exact same argument for the removal of stagger from Cleaving Whirlwind.

If you agree on everything except that it should be removed, then why are you even here arguing? Your point is that it's not worth removing because it's an unnecessary and easily avoidable hindrance?

I'm not the one with conflicting views here, my dude...

Edited March 7, 2020 by HomicidalGrouse

[(NSW)Conn1496]

3 minutes ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

If you agree on everything except that it should be removed, then why are you even here arguing? Your point is that it's not worth removing because it's an unnecessary and easily avoidable hindrance?

It's unneccesary to use, but not in it existing. You don't have to use every last input, and that is something that a lot of stances will benefit from you learning, not just Cleaving Whirlwind. In my personal opinion (and yours, apparently), yes, it is not hard to avoid. But it isn't necessarily easy for newer players, or players new to the stance to avoid. It makes players think about their inputs. It's that little extra bit engaging than it not being there. That seems fine to me.

But it's clear that you're misunderstanding my point entirely, seemingly because you don't want to put up with what is essentially only a punishment for mashing (which you don't put up with in the first place, because you apparently play around it). So if you're mad about the stagger animation, but you can play around it, then you're mad about having to play around it because you want to mash. You're mad about having to put in the tiniest amount of extra effort - at least for an experienced player - to optimise one single tool. Not even to make it viable. Even if the stagger was forced, it's a very solid combo.

I said it before in the thread: The only difference between Broken Bull and other combos is that it's a more explicit punishment for mashing than other combos are - which seems fair, given that otherwise the combo is just the same respectable attack getting stronger 5 times in a row with no kind of brainpower needed. It requires more skill than it does without it, which as I've stated before, is a balancing trade-off, even if it doesn't personally hinder you. That's a decision DE made that I agree with, and I'm personally standing by it.

I'm honestly just not going to respond again to repeat myself, as I have been. If this is something you don't get, then you just don't get it, and I apparently can't change that. -and if this one animation is something that you really, seriously hate, then just don't use Cleaving Whirlwind. I don't think I can put it in simpler terms, and if you insist on never agreeing, then you just don't agree. I'm not going to metaphorically continue to smash my head against a brick wall trying to make it happen.

[CaffeineTanuki]

9 hours ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

It's also referred to as an argumentum ad populum, but the term used to point it out isn't relevant and doesn't make you appear smarter. You can claim whatever you want about your "500 member clan" saying this or that. I could claim my 1000 member clan all said they want it removed. It's an inherently fallacious argument, and is easily ignored.

Yes, I'm well aware of its other names. I was simply showing that you're using incorrect terminology, as that particular fallacy didn't apply to what I had said. Again, there isn't really much of a popular opinion one way or the other here.

9 hours ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

You can already do this. Removing the stagger changes nothing other than removing the control that gets periodically taken from the player.

Control that you can easily keep by not spamming through the combo, counting your attack presses, and stopping at 5 to roll and switch to a gun to take out the stragglers.

9 hours ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

Who are these meta slaves and where have they said they would use CW over TR if not for that blasted stagger? Literally where are they?

If you have to ask this question, you clearly haven't played end-game level with people who like efficiency.

9 hours ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

No, because it's part of the increased mobility aspect of the block-combos.

And yet, similar to the all-encompassing stagger, control of movement is taken away from you in the same way.

9 hours ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

You keep trying to use how long you've played or how many people you think agree with you to prove your case.

I have done so exactly once during this argument, and only as a point of timescale to show that I've seen more of these kinds of changes and balances than you have. Not once did I say that playing for longer made my opinion any more valid, or yours any less.

9 hours ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

The animation itself is a holdover from pre-melee 3.0, when you were locked into completing combos

You have always been able to stop mid-combo and reset it. Never in the entire game have you been animation-locked into doing all 7, now 5, spins.

 

I'll reiterate what Conn1496 has said. It's a learning curve. It's meant to teach players how to use more of their options while they're still getting used to the game. Same thing with other combos with long endlag. Yes, it's a bit in-your-face and obvious, but it's effective. New players are learning this new melee system and having much more fun with it than ever before, thanks to these punishing endings.

I'm finishing this on my side. If I've learned anything from debate it's that you can't argue with someone who doesn't want to listen, which you've proven for yourself.

[HomicidalGrouse]

23 hours ago, (NSW)Conn1496 said:

But it's clear that you're misunderstanding my point entirely, seemingly because you don't want to put up with what is essentially only a punishment for mashing (which you don't put up with in the first place, because you apparently play around it). So if you're mad about the stagger animation, but you can play around it, then you're mad about having to play around it because you want to mash.

I want to see Cleaving Whirlwind made consistent with every other stance in the game, which allow you to spam their moves with impunity. If no other stance needs such a restriction, then neither does CW. It's a nuisance... a minor one, but a nuisance nonetheless.
 

23 hours ago, (NSW)Conn1496 said:

and if this one animation is something that you really, seriously hate, then just don't use Cleaving Whirlwind.

If CW would be too "braindead" and "boring" without the stagger, what's stopping you from just not using it?

23 hours ago, (NSW)Conn1496 said:

If this is something you don't get, then you just don't get it, and I apparently can't change that.

I absolutely understand what you're saying. I'm telling you it's wrong. The head-smashing feeling is mutual.
 

19 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

If you have to ask this question, you clearly haven't played end-game level with people who like efficiency.

I do try to stay away from the most toxic members of the community, yes.
 

19 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

And yet, similar to the all-encompassing stagger, control of movement is taken away from you in the same way.

It's not, because I'm still attacking, not stumbling around doing nothing.

19 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

I have done so exactly once during this argument

Just... blatantly false. First, you claimed you've played for 7 years, then you claimed more people in this thread agree with you than me, and then you claimed you ran it by your clan. That's 3 times.

19 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

You have always been able to stop mid-combo and reset it. Never in the entire game have you been animation-locked into doing all 7, now 5, spins.

You were locked if you had already pressed the key for the next attack while the previous was completing, and couldn't cancel the animations. They fixed this with melee 3.0, and you know it. Don't be obtuse.

19 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

New players are learning this new melee system and having much more fun with it than ever before, thanks to these punishing endings.

lolwut

Please.. show me whatever evidence you've pulled out of your butt to suggest that new players are enjoying melee more because of a stagger at the end of one stance's combo...
 

19 hours ago, Skyward_Knight said:

I'm finishing this on my side. If I've learned anything from debate it's that you can't argue with someone who doesn't want to listen, which you've proven for yourself.

It's funny how whenever people like you try to exit an argument in this fashion, the onus is always on the other person listening. God forbid you do a bit of listening yourself...

[Xepthrichros]

I think they should remove the stagger, if for nothing else - its because WE ARE SPACE NINJA WITH SUPERHUMAN LEVELS OF POWER, AND THE STAGGER FEELS OUT OF PLACE THEMATICALLY.

Have you ever seen the Flash or other super-powered characters complain of dizziness after doing some whirlwind spin attack? As far as I can recall, nope, never seen it happen.

I suspect they put stagger in to prevent endless spinning. How about just making the warframe do a different direction cut at the end of a combo? Still accomplishes the goal of preventing endless spinning, but looks more in-universe and consistent with the theme of feeling powerful.

The stagger, on the other hand, just makes them look unnecessarily comical, and like they forgot to have their Snickers bar.

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Xepthrichros