Jump to content
Jade Shadows: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

extraction rushing (reward structure)


Salenzar
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hey all,

Just a minor thought I had today while doing 5-minute Gian Point rushes; it's great how we're all able to complete missions really fast and all that, but aren't we effectively just trying to skip content as much as possible, moreso than anything else, really? With all of the important and desirable loot only being in the end-of-mission reward, there's really no incentive to play the content of the game, rather, it's much more desirable to skip it, or play through it as fast as possible to get another spin on the end of mission rewards, which are often 5% of lower rewards that are most sought after. 

There has to be a way to actually incentivize players to spend time in missions in terms of meaningful rewards? Stuff like the ultra rare storage containers don't work, they're way too rare to even reasonably look for in any way whatsoever. While the really valuable stuff like umbra forma BPs are hidden behind that, it's unfathomable to even find one of those. So the problem persists; how are we able to get players to actually play the content instead of only circumventing the content as efficiently as possible?

Sometimes it feels like the end of mission RNG roulette is all that the game is, really. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I fully agree, rare containers give me zero incentive to rummage around the mission because they are indeed too rare to be a reliable spawn. So most of the time you're just wasting your time looking for them. Same with Ayatan. 

There really isn't any way you can really incentivize people to hang around a level because once they have whatever MacGuffin the game is holding over their heads, they're just going to go right back to rushing to extraction. 

Kuva Siphons sorta kinda manage to get people to stick around a bit longer but the thing there is that people aren't really there for the mission they are there for the Siphon. 

Edited by Oreades
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

10 minutes ago, Oreades said:

I fully agree, rare containers give me zero incentive to rummage around the mission because they are indeed too rare to be a reliable spawn. So most of the time you're just wasting your time looking for them. Same with Ayatan. 

There really isn't any way you can really incentivize people to hang around a level because once they have whatever MacGuffin the game is holding over their heads, they're just going to go right back to rushing to extraction. 

Kuva Siphons sorta kinda manage to get people to stick around a bit longer but the thing there is that people aren't really there for the mission they are there for the Siphon. 

It's something I can't help but think about from time to time, but I just can't even really think of many ways to actually incentivize players to stick around in missions, maybe it's just a core tenet of game design that cannot be avoided. Or perhaps it's just an aspect of videogames in general that I'm outgrowing, I'm not sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is kind of funny because I was thinking just earlier today when I scanned a somachord fragment that I liked how there’s all these hidden things in a level, like rare crates, fragments, and ayatan statues.

I can also recognise that they’ll eventually run their course. Can only scan so many fragments before you’ve found them all.

Hrm. Keeping a player within a randomly-generated tile set that they’ll be very familiar with in due time. That’s a tricky one.

Randomising hidden areas won’t work so well because people will see the pattern of randomisation....

Randomly hidden resources will lose their value as the player eventually finds 10 million of them when a grand total of everything in the game that uses it calls for 5 million...

hrm.... Running through my head a lot of permutations of “Go here to find a thing!”, and they’re falling apart in the face of people with all the time in the world to hunt them down, find their spawn points or figure out the trick to get them, and then write wikis that streamline the process for those who either can’t be bothered or don’t have time.

Personally I don’t have time, and I can be bothered. But I can see where others would come from.

I wonder if it’s worth taking a step back from “What can we find?”, and wonder about “Why are we here?” instead? Can the incentive be something other than collectibles?

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

 

I wonder if it’s worth taking a step back from “What can we find?”, and wonder about “Why are we here?” instead? Can the incentive be something other than collectibles?

That last part is exactly the thing that I wonder as well. How do we make something that is very much goal-oriented into something that is more process-oriented? Currently, I'm clueless. Everying you described seems to ring true, but I'm currently only talking about reward-structures. I could think of at least a FEW things that would entice players to be somewhere, and that would be in the form of interesting and challenging content, but that has little to do with rewards. That's a topic on its own entirely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hrm... tricky indeed. This is a good topic!

I think it’s worth noting that Warframe has a “We’re mixing it up for you each time, but most missions within a certain type will start to feel similar” approach. The tiles are modular, but we learn the individual pieces soon enough (though personally the Gas City has some mysteries for me yet). Changing this fundamental aspect does not bear thinking of at the moment, so we work within its limits.

I’ve seen other games with similar randomised level generation. The Diablo games spring to mind, and I’m sure there’s many more. If anyone can think of others, I wonder about a question; “If you could choose to rush through them, would you?”. 

If there are examples of incentivising people to explore similar-looking rearranged levels, searching for rewards, I’d love to hear them

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
Acknowledging that OP was referring to rewards specifically
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I had to point to a single fundamental flaw with Warframe responsible for the majority of my burnout, it would be that. The game's reward structure has bred a culture of speed-running missions while trying to play as little content as possible, solely for the sake of getting another spin at the end-of-mission reward RNG. DE might have tried to alleviate this with Hidden Caches, Rare Containers, Ayatan crap and so on, but it doesn't seem like anyone cares about any of it. This "abandon your team and rush to the end as fast as possible" mentality makes playing with pubbies simply impossible for me, not in the long run. And I don't really blame people, either. We naturally "want" to play the game in the way it's most efficient, and it's DE themselves who decided to gate quite literally everything important behind end-of-mission reward pools.

Personally, I wish we'd go the way of early-days Payday 2. That is to say, that mission rewards would be tied to what we do IN the mission, rather than just the end of it. See, in Payday, your end-of-mission reward (XP and money) scaled with the extra loot your stole. You COULD finish Rats having cooked no meth, gotten no money and stolen no money from the bus in about 5-10 minutes. People used to do that back in the day. Then Overkill introduced XP scaling with bags stolen, and all of a sudden you saw a rush of people trying to cook 7 bags of Meth for the extra payout and pull all the loot off the bus at the end. All of a sudden, people turned what used to be a "skip-grind" into an "all loot" mission, instead.

I would love for Warframe to go a similar route. As to what you reward people with? How about an extra reward rotation? Let's say you're on your average Capture mission. You COULD just capture the target and leave, but the Lotus knows that the target also had cannisters with important documents hidden around the place. Six cannisters exist somewhere on the map, spawning like Ayatan Sculptures. You pick those up, move them to Extraction. For every 2 cannisters, you get an extra reward roll from the mission reward pool. Or let's say you're doing a Rescue mission. To help ensure no harm can come to the rescuee after the fact, you could erase all records of them. Three consoles would spawn somewhere around the level. Hack the consoles, defend them for 30-60 seconds. Each console gives you an extra reward rotation. Or say you're on an Assassination mission. The boss is your target, but three of their lieutenants also roam the halls. Find them and kill them too. For each Lieutenant, you get an extra reward rotation. That sort of thing.

With Payday 2 being revived of late, I've been reminded of just how much fun secondary objectives could be. OK, sure, I'm only here to steal Rust's bike so I can buy his help... But there are all these bags of coke and unregistered guns lying around the place. Why NOT run around looking while the mechanic works to assemble the bike? I'm robbing a Big Bank. I only need four bags of loot in order to trigger mission completion... But I pulled like 20 of 'em out of cages and lockboxes. I don't want to leave them behind. I'm only here to bust a guy out who has information I need but OH HEY! Is that a GenSec armoured car I see? Maybe I can drill that open and break into a few lockboxes inside, see about pulling out some bags of money. Etc. etc., etc. Having these optional objectives contribute to my "end of mission" rewards tally really helps sell a sense of managed greed which I feel more video games can benefit from.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Salenzar said:

It's something I can't help but think about from time to time, but I just can't even really think of many ways to actually incentivize players to stick around in missions, maybe it's just a core tenet of game design that cannot be avoided. Or perhaps it's just an aspect of videogames in general that I'm outgrowing, I'm not sure.

 

Just some things i can think of:

- far more ressources from contains compared to enemy farming

- mission reward multiplier if you do extra objectives or find hidden things

- solo extract for everything so people can stick in a mission as long as they want without constant extraction pressure (but not as long as host migration works the way it currently does)

There are certainly more ways I can´t hink of at the moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great topic!

I'm one of those players that love to discover hidden items, break open the crates and wonder about the "worn scratched" areas that lead to shortcuts and secret paths. I hate "rushframe" with a passion. Lol!

That said, I think Gas City is the answer. I'd love for DE to eventually remaster each planet's tileset BUT keep the existing tilesets. The old Jupiter tileset was great and would've been perfect for the early starchart completion phase. Once the chart has been completed as well as the second dream, Cetus, Fortuna and a completely new star chart is revealed, with level 40 plus enemies and a whole new tileset per planet, just like the old Jupiter to the new Gas City.

These new tilesets will have the same structure as Gas City: Lore fillers, captura scenes, specific mod sets, a more robust tileset with parkour challenges, etc.

While this won't exactly "fix" rushframe, it will definitely punish those who rush by offering little rewards while those who search get heavily rewarded.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Great topic!

I'm one of those players that love to discover hidden items, break open the crates and wonder about the "worn scratched" areas that lead to shortcuts and secret paths. I hate "rushframe" with a passion. Lol!

That said, I think Gas City is the answer. I'd love for DE to eventually remaster each planet's tileset BUT keep the existing tilesets. The old Jupiter tileset was great and would've been perfect for the early starchart completion phase. Once the chart has been completed as well as the second dream, Cetus, Fortuna and a completely new star chart is revealed, with level 40 plus enemies and a whole new tileset per planet, just like the old Jupiter to the new Gas City.

These new tilesets will have the same structure as Gas City: Lore fillers, captura scenes, specific mod sets, a more robust tileset with parkour challenges, etc.

While this won't exactly "fix" rushframe, it will definitely punish those who rush by offering little rewards while those who search get heavily rewarded.

I really like the idea of there being additional objectives that provide worthwhile loot in the form of side objectives, but I think what's actually necessary is more what some others have already pointed out, like; 

13 hours ago, Arcira said:

 

Just some things i can think of:

- far more ressources from contains compared to enemy farming

- mission reward multiplier if you do extra objectives or find hidden things

- solo extract for everything so people can stick in a mission as long as they want without constant extraction pressure (but not as long as host migration works the way it currently does)

There are certainly more ways I can´t hink of at the moment.

What we might just need is to be able to roll more often on the same end of mission roulette, although, sadly, all that might accomplish is that the grind becomes faster, and therefore just over more quickly. The problem with having specific side objectives is that they become a goal of their own, and it might lead to the inverse problem of what I'm describing in this thread; that people will only rush he side objectives for their particular reward, and then rush to extraction without getting anything meaningful out of the end of mission rewards. It's essentially the same problem, with a slightly different coating.

Like I said, this may be a problem that can't actually be solved, but I still really like some of the ideas thrown out around here.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Salenzar said:

I really like the idea of there being additional objectives that provide worthwhile loot in the form of side objectives, but I think what's actually necessary is more what some others have already pointed out, like; 

What we might just need is to be able to roll more often on the same end of mission roulette, although, sadly, all that might accomplish is that the grind becomes faster, and therefore just over more quickly. The problem with having specific side objectives is that they become a goal of their own, and it might lead to the inverse problem of what I'm describing in this thread; that people will only rush he side objectives for their particular reward, and then rush to extraction without getting anything meaningful out of the end of mission rewards. It's essentially the same problem, with a slightly different coating.

Like I said, this may be a problem that can't actually be solved, but I still really like some of the ideas thrown out around here.

The difference is they are rolled randomly and don´t get a marker you can chase (only revealed when you are within very close range). Those things could be: hack a specific console, find specific container, capture a hidden officer, etc. Essentially quite similar to the find the 3 hidden container container in sabotage missions but instead of an additional rewardtable you get a higher chance for rare loot from the actual mission rewards or something (or straigth up more).

On another note since you mentioned rare container in your post. In my opinion they should have a very high if not 100% chance to spawn somewhere in the mission. But instead of instant rewards you get parts/shards/token or whatever so you have to collect them over a time. Actually that´s what I wish they would have done with the railjack anomaly. But instead they decided to keep it for umbra forma and added a token system for rushing the mission.

Ultimately I´m not even sure wether people want to spend time inside missions. One example is the ressource costs for railjack items. They where a little bit high on release that´s true but it was managable if you actually took the time farming for ressources from asteroids (which almost no one in my squads did). But people complained they increased end of mission rewards and now they are rushing trough missions again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Funny thing mere moments ago. Kuva Lich mission, hijack. I loaded into the mission where just one other player was already there - rushing past enemies towards the objective (console that starts the hijack section). Like, the whole point of the Kuva Lich missions is to kill as many thralls as possible, and if they appear, the Liches themselves, if you just run past all enemies, you just end up with far fewer thralls than if you killed everything on the way. So deeply ingrained is the objective rush mindset that people even do it when it's to the detriment of the express purpose of the mission.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Mephane said:

Funny thing mere moments ago. Kuva Lich mission, hijack. I loaded into the mission where just one other player was already there - rushing past enemies towards the objective (console that starts the hijack section). Like, the whole point of the Kuva Lich missions is to kill as many thralls as possible, and if they appear, the Liches themselves, if you just run past all enemies, you just end up with far fewer thralls than if you killed everything on the way. So deeply ingrained is the objective rush mindset that people even do it when it's to the detriment of the express purpose of the mission.

Same happened to me. It's 100% a player only issue though and, despite the really good ideas on this thread, you can't tell people how to play although they'll happily complain about the consequences of how they play. 

I really love the shard/piece idea. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...