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Artificial Difficulty


NIL0S
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DE relies way too heavily on it, i'm hoping this will change somewhat with armor/damage 2.0, but if the few things we've heard about it are true, it's just the same thing but different. Warframe doesn't get more challenging as much it becomes more inflated; more enemy damage, more enemy armor, more enemy HP, more enemies. Difficulty is dictated mostly by sheer numbers alone.

AI doesn't really act as a unit as much it just rushes you en masse, the most complex combat puzzle right now probably being drones giving their allies shields. The rest is pretty much stunlocks, DPS caps and weakpoints, last of which is probably one of the more interesting player skill based mechanics, if it wasn't that it gets old quite fast (tired of headshots? In WF it's footshots), and if coupled with DPS caps on bosses again goes back into artificial difficulty territory.

So beyond the grind, you also have combat that never really evolves beyond "get bigger guns, more shields, press 4 to win". Where's the need for teamplay anyway? It's a co-op shooter at its core, how interesting and fun the AI is during enemy encounters makes or breaks the game. DE needs to focus on the moment to moment gameplay, keep it interesting, fresh, challenging.

Thoughts?

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Artificial difficulty is much much easier to get out (especially when you're rushing) than actual difficulty.

The AI needs to drastically improve, both as a group and as individuals.

Individual AI isn't something I have high hopes for though, DE seems to have a

for AI that is as much use as a soggy brick.
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I wholeheartedly agree, I even created lenghty post about it, but it went unnoticed. Probably because of wall of text and my not best English.

 

What we have here is not difficulty and challenge. It should be like fencing - you can have great fun fighting on equal terms (same weapon, same equipment) with someone who is better then you - you learn how to react and at some point you can win.

Here, on higher difficulty level, we are fighting with wooden stick against someone who wears full plate armor and uses pavise and zweihander (I know it doesnn't make sense) - and our only option is bashing him until he gets headache.

 

This is not difficulty. I can still outsmart mobs, i can move faster, but at some point even my most badass weapon will be dealing 1 damage per shot, and their guns will reduce my Shield/HP to 0 in few second.

 

AI in this game is bad, bordering on being pathetic. Mobs have no tools to counter our skills, they don't cooperate, they don't use their skills and weapons to their advantage. They skills and equipment doesn't make sense, Melee grineer just run and die. Others just run, shoot and die. There are no enemies that can nullify our powers. Only faction that makes sense are infested - because they are like animnals, they run in tens and overwhelm us, and actually Ancient Disruptors can disable our skills for few seconds - but that's it.

 

And I don't belive that DE will do anything about it in forseeable future. People will continue screaming nerf/buff/remove, because they think that removing our power will make this game more challenging.

Edited by SabreUr
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Right now I'm kinda scared armor 2.0 will make the game even easier.

 

Hopefully AI 2.0 will help the game a bit....

 

Also something needs to be done with ultimates in order to lessen the 4 spam.Regarding ability spam there's the great risk that people will start whining on the forums like there's no tomorrow just like it happened in U10 when for a full day or so, the game was actually warframe and not rushframe.

Edited by Cabadath5
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Hell yeah I want enemies that call in artillery strikes and orbital bombardments and Tenno running through it.

And make it so only Frames with minimum of 800 shielding can get through.

 

And to keep you in place, they will use suppressing fire miniguns that deal 100 damage per hit and fire at 2000 rounds per minute without needing to reload.

 

I want Grineer with gunships and tanks, while Corpus have mini-raptors floating on the battle field in outpost missions and fire homing missiles.

 

That's the sh1t dude !

Edited by fatpig84
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Core of the problem is much deeper that artificial difficulty. If you improve mobs AI, you would not change much in the term of gameplay. Mobs will only be more interesting.

 

Molecular Prime ( example ) kills everything in the room and beyond, and if you improve AI MP will still kill everything in the same way. Smarter mobs would mean something if core mechanics were reworked also. Mobs that flank you, hide behind crates, use formations ( that isnt Bravo), or overall being smarter would be obliterated in the same way as those dumb ones that we have right now.

 

So, my thought on this is: If DE wants to improve AI ( i dont see Armor 2.0 being AI improvement ), they need to tweak ( or rework ) some of the core mechanics.

Edited by RoboDog
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Core of the problem is much deeper that artificial difficulty. If you improve mobs AI, you would not change much in the term of gameplay. Mobs will only be more interesting.

 

Molecular Prime ( example ) kills everything in the room and beyond, and if you improve AI MP will still kill everything in the same way. Smarter mobs would mean something if core mechanics were reworked also. Mobs that flank you, hide behind crates, use formations ( that isnt Bravo), or overall being smarter would be obliterated in the same way as those dumb ones that we have right now.

 

So, my thought on this is: If DE wants to improve AI ( i dont see Armor 2.0 being AI improvement ), they need to tweak ( or rework ) some of the core mechanics.

Or they can introduce new classes that will counter our skills, create nullyfying fields, shield bubbles similar to one used by Frost and so on.

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Technically it's all artificial difficulty no matter what you do to the AI, or bosses, or levels. I mean, as long as it's made by man, it's an artifice, ergo artificial.

Touchè with the artifice part. But consider this, you're playing Skyrim, a fairly easy game. Then you raise the difficulty slider to the maximum, mechanics are still the same, but the game gets harder because enemy stats are buffed and yours stay the same. This is artificial difficulty, the challenge being nothing but bigger numbers.

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(...)

 

Also something needs to be done with ultimates in order to lessen the 4 spam. (...)

Ultimates are fine. The real problem is that there is little to almost no synergies between other abilities, or reason to use skills in a combo, also between frames... I don't say this doesn't currently exist (throw a bullet attractor and a javellin toggether for hilarity), but it could be worked upon. For example Ember could set on fire Saryn's poison, stuff like that.

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Core of the problem is much deeper that artificial difficulty. If you improve mobs AI, you would not change much in the term of gameplay. Mobs will only be more interesting.

 

Molecular Prime ( example ) kills everything in the room and beyond, and if you improve AI MP will still kill everything in the same way. Smarter mobs would mean something if core mechanics were reworked also. Mobs that flank you, hide behind crates, use formations ( that isnt Bravo), or overall being smarter would be obliterated in the same way as those dumb ones that we have right now.

 

So, my thought on this is: If DE wants to improve AI ( i dont see Armor 2.0 being AI improvement ), they need to tweak ( or rework ) some of the core mechanics.

So much yes. What do you expect from enemies if Tenno themselves can practically be permanently invulnerable (Trinity bless) or can stunlock/control everything forever in a wide area (Rhino stomp, Nyxes Chaos)? Fights, once you learn to "press 4" at the right moment and point your gun the right direction, will all follow the same pattern. They get boring with time. No wonder Lephantis and Krill are some of the hardest boss battles... Not because they are complex or require great reaction or smartness, but because 80% of the time they are invulnerable and have a DPS cap. It's irritating more than it is challenging.

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Or they can introduce new classes that will counter our skills, create nullyfying fields, shield bubbles similar to one used by Frost and so on.

I'm actually all for empowering Tenno AND enemies, the way fights become more dynamic, unforseeable, puzzle like. I want to approach a fight and stop a moment, strategize how i'm going to take down the enemy group and coordinate with my squad. Having said this, we already have enough stuinlock mechanics as is... The ability and need for flanking would be a start, not that hard to implement even (shield enemies are already in the game, though they are a joke as only thing they do is walk straight thowards you to their death).

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I agree, NonNomFabbo.

Stuff like The Stalker for example break up the monotony quite well, even though his AI isn't any brighter than that of an infested charger, he at least brings a feeling of unpredictability, the potential of an ambush around every corner, in any situation. You can even turn him or other enemies to your advantage by having them fight among themselves. When The Stalker appears even the most silent of chats flare up with "Stalker? Light's flickering"..."STALKER ON ME", then you team up and protect the target. This sort of thing goes a long way to make the game more interesting. Give AIs a purpose beyond being bullet sponges.

(granted, at higher levels even The Stalker becomes just more meat for the grinder, but it's the concept)

I also think Stealth would benefit from smarter AI.

Edited by NIL0S
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They are going to lose interest hard and fast then, with me at least.

 

Yeah, but look how small is feedback on your topic. People care only for nerfs and buffs. Making guns laughably weak will for sure increase quality of challenge. Maybe if one of us started revolutionary thread, screaming that this is bullS#&$, false advertising, and so on, and so on. Those actually achieve something, at least we could get DE's response.

Now this topic will slowly sink under such important threads like "Are Tenno terrorists?".

 

I put some faith in these new, redone mission types - Survival brought some fresh air. But still, even if they will be absolutely awesome, without refining AI and introducing new enemies with unique mechanics game will be just shooting at morons who wear more and more powerful armor.

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Yeah this thread maybe isn't controversial enough, also at times it feels like stating the obvious... Thing is, we want this game to succeed, we want to keep playing it. Truth is, the forums are Warframe's real end-game currently...

PS: "Survival brought fresh air", i see what you did there! ;D

Edited by NIL0S
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The only real problem with introducing more vicious AI, tilesets, boss battles and the like is that you run the risk of alienating newer players. Let me give a good example...

 

Demon's Souls on the PS3. In the first few months (nearly 6) after its release, it flopped. The difficulty of the game was way too high, it was brutal, unforgiving, and most people who bought it very quickly sold it because it was nearly unplayable.

 

About a year later, the popularity of it EXPLODED, it became a PS3 Greatest Hit, and people everywhere were starting to buy it (Trophy Unlocked: Masochistic Populace). When hundreds of thousands of people began to play it, the "difficulty wall" vanished, and as people progressed and got used to the unforgiving nature of the game... it became easy. It didn't magically become easy, it's still as hard and unforgiving to new players, but the people who grew used to the game were no longer presented with a challenge (aside from PvP).

 

Basically after 250+ hours and gaining better gear, you join the group of people who consider the game "easy." This is what's commonly referred to as the endgame wall in which the standard mechanics of the game don't present a challenge because you've essentially trained yourself to overcome them. It's similar to how a normal person wouldn't ever have the hope of lifting a 200 pound barbell, but with time, effort and training to become a bodybuilder, lifting a 200 pound barbell may be a simple task.

 

It's actually at this point that it makes sense that, if you find no real challenge anymore, you should either dabble in PvP, or take a break from Warframe and come back when new content is released (maps, bosses, weapons, etc).

Edited by Letter13
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snip

 

I think you misunderstood, at least some parts. Noone wants Darkframe: Prepare to Die edition. What we want is AI and enemies that will react to our actions. That will be able to cooperate in some form - best example - Shield Lancers. They should provide cover, and standard lancers should stick behind them. In game former or latter will just rush us and die. Why those Lancers don't cooperate?

What is the point of melee units in grineer army, when they are slow, with no armour, they are unable to roll-dodge. AI will run straight into our skills. But they don't even have option to counter these skills - Grineer Commander is annoying (*&%. He just teleports - but he could grant passive bonuses similar to drones in grineer desert outpost. He could create smokescreen. He could enforce his command and take control of "Chaos-ed" troops. He could do hundred and one things that would make his forces real threat. Instead he just switch teleport :/ WTF.

 

Such AI changes would not make Warframe impossibly difficult. It would make players think - "OK, I can't spam my "4" here, I have to kill Engineer who nullifies my powers, but he is protected by squad of Shield lancers and Troopers..." Mercury could be populated by "Grineer Conscripts" so player would gradually meet new and more formidable units with new skills and more advanced battle tactics. Not just "Beefier armor and bigger gun".

 

IMO variety of enemies is very small. Most of them are just reskins with different weapons using the same, or very similar AI routines.

Edited by SabreUr
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DE relies way too heavily on it, i'm hoping this will change somewhat with armor/damage 2.0, but if the few things we've heard about it are true, it's just the same thing but different. Warframe doesn't get more challenging as much it becomes more inflated; more enemy damage, more enemy armor, more enemy HP, more enemies. Difficulty is dictated mostly by sheer numbers alone.

 

Replace Warframe with any MMORPG, and you might start seeing a pattern.

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Thing relies too much on knock downs and staggers and it takes too long to get back up. We should be able to either shoot while knocked down or somehow get up faster ourselves.

 

Like press jump button to get up as soon as you hit the floor and mods increasing knockdown recovery could speed up the animation.

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Thing relies too much on knock downs and staggers and it takes too long to get back up. We should be able to either shoot while knocked down or somehow get up faster ourselves.

Like press jump button to get up as soon as you hit the floor and mods increasing knockdown recovery could speed up the animation.

This. Or make use of Stamina. Each staggering/knocking down hit will drain Stamina.You go down when you run out. Or when you are hit you roll back instead of landing on &#!.

Edited by SabreUr
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