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Please could you give 'non-explosive' weapons back their AOE.


TheArcSet
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Dear DE,

Please could you give 'non-explosive' weapons back their AOE; it doesn't really make much conceptual sense for them to have any noticeable fall-off, let alone 90% and this new mechanic is very damaging to AOE utility weapons, like the POX, or the Torrid.

Without uniform AOE, these utility over damage weapons will lose their utility, especially as they can no longer fully strip enemies.

Furthermore, could you re-examine fall-off on weapons where you decided not to centre radial effect on the actual bullet or point of impact, as that complicates things significantly.

Thank you for you time reading this and for your efforts to improve the game.

Edited by TheArcSet
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il y a 29 minutes, LascarCapable a dit :

Some explosive weapons are absurdly powerful to the point of wiping hordes of enemies far above level 100. Some form of restriction is very needed for the sake of balance.

Yes, the Bramma needed this nerf.

Not the Pox or the Staticor.

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35 minutes ago, LascarCapable said:

It's either this or back to self damage again. Can't have both.

Some explosive weapons are absurdly powerful to the point of wiping hordes of enemies far above level 100. Some form of restriction is very needed for the sake of balance.

Level 100 is literally nothing, assuming old scaling (new scaling honestly it doesn't matter what you build anything under level 300 is paper). If your weapon can't work at this level, your build is simply bad.

In any case, self damage is much easier to manage and a lot less obnoxious. Many weapons now stagger that didn't have self damage, too, which makes many of them unusable.

Anyway, reducing their aoe wasn't the solution. These are aoe weapons, their defining feature is that they do damage in an aoe, in a game where we are nearly always fighting more than one enemy. Turning them into glorified single target weapons doesn't solve anything.

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Yes, they ARE the one area weapon right now, so it's only natural all melee attacks would stagger from now on - you're in the middle of it, you should've aimed true, tenno!

Seriously though, AoE weapons were ALREADY being balanced by their fire rate, their actual damage against one target, their crit and status, their ammo, reload, accuracy... EVERY OTHER MECHANICAL ASPECT of the weapon was being used to balance out the radius of all those guns whether or not they had self-damage. Stagger to self-damage weapons was already a blatant nerfing to "compensate" (not that it was needed) for shield gating preventing so many self-induced oneshots, and then the falloff added "to compensate" for self-damage being nerfed into stagger?

If AoE weapons are to be primarily single target now, the DPS on most of them needs to drastically increase. And that would be boring because it would just make all the weapons categories ever-more similar.

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On 2020-03-08 at 6:52 PM, LascarCapable said:

It's either this or back to self damage again. Can't have both.

Some explosive weapons are absurdly powerful to the point of wiping hordes of enemies far above level 100. Some form of restriction is very needed for the sake of balance.

so they should give back the self damage, make it so it passes through your team mates and if necessary give an arming distance too. it didn't have to be my way(aka stagger on even the smallest of AOE weapons) or the high way

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On 2020-03-08 at 1:22 PM, LascarCapable said:

It's either this or back to self damage again. Can't have both.

Some explosive weapons are absurdly powerful to the point of wiping hordes of enemies far above level 100. Some form of restriction is very needed for the sake of balance.

Which was why this post was made to specifically target the Non-explosive weapons.


It makes sense for explosions to have 'some' fall-off, it doesn't make any conceptual sense for gas-clouds or acid splats to have immediate fall-off.

And as @Aryustailm said, with the exception of a couple of new, extra powerful weapons, where the barriers were access, there were already a lot of balancing factors in place.

Edited by TheArcSet
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On 2020-03-08 at 7:50 AM, TheArcSet said:

Without uniform AOE, these utility over damage weapons will lose their utility, especially as they can no longer fully strip enemies.

Their status chance doesn't have a falloff, though. The reason they can't fully strip enemies is that Corrosive can't now, and the reason Corrosive had to be nerfed was the new enemy scaling. So armor strip guns utility are kinda dead no matter what. 

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Yeah, I'm almost certain that damage procs are affected as well. All I was saying is that Corrosive as a utility weapon effect is dead. And the changes to CO mean that a spritzer bottle or beam full of random status effects as a support to melee has been dead since Old Blood. The only real "utility weapon" role left I can see is knockdown guns like the Sonicor (which at least got its falloff tuned and I think doesn't have any? - but is nonetheless newly impossible to use thanks to the self-stun.)

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On 2020-03-08 at 2:56 PM, GKP_light said:

Not the Pox or the Staticor.

Pox wasnt hit by anything, it never was a damage secondary (tho it kinda can now with reworked viral and armor making any amount of heat stacking capable of melting enemies much like slash) and thanfully it wasnt hit by self stagger.

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il y a 45 minutes, Andele3025 a dit :

Pox wasnt hit by anything, it never was a damage secondary (tho it kinda can now with reworked viral and armor making any amount of heat stacking capable of melting enemies much like slash) and thanfully it wasnt hit by self stagger.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Pox :

"Explosion inflicts self-stagger.
Explosion has linear damage falloff from 100% to 50% from central impact."

(The AOE is small, so it append very rarely.)

Edited by GKP_light
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5 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

The only real "utility weapon" role left I can see is knockdown guns like the Sonicor (which at least got its falloff tuned and I think doesn't have any?

No -area- fall off either in the armory or simulacrum testing as of the patch last week.  It still has the same projectile fall off it's had for as long as I can recall.

 

5 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

but is nonetheless newly impossible to use thanks to the self-stun.)

I'd call it frustrating for sure.  I certainly wouldn't recommend using it without projectile speed.  Even then, it's deeply ironic whenever this (still mostly short range) CC weapon--a niche that was already small--punishes the user with "self-cc"

I still enjoy the Sonicor, but I'm fortunate enough to have a couple of really good rivens for it...and very low standards.

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I can't manage to stun myself with the Astilla any more than I could manage to kill myself with the Acceltra. Before the change, I thought of the Astilla as a worse Acceltra, and after the change ... I think of the Astilla as a worse Acceltra. But I do kinda think some of these weapons should have got something in return, less harsh falloff, etc.

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After playing a lot by now, I'm in favor of the new stagger system. It makes sense and adds balance, without the risk of just killing yourself on accident. The only thing that needs ironing out in my opinion is the fallout damage range (90% is far too much for some weapons, but acceptable for others) and the rate of stagger (looking at you, staticor).

I think self-stagger should stay. Enemy levels irrelevant.

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6 hours ago, GKP_light said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Pox :

"Explosion inflicts self-stagger.
Explosion has linear damage falloff from 100% to 50% from central impact."

(The AOE is small, so it append very rarely.)

Nope, tested it (both in mission and sim) with fulmi+MS+accuracy loss to guarantee pelting the area right infront of the frames feet and it literally cant stagger you even if its right ontop of you. Its among the un-mentioned "buffs" much like how Prime Sure Footed was given 100% stagger resist ontop of knockdown AND had its block animation removed.

There is a """possible""" explanation since most of its "power" is in the cloud and dot, IF de made stagger based on damage dealt that it simply couldnt damage frames i used for testing enough to stagger, but that seems extremely unlikely compared to the fact that DE just changed their mind to be sensible and not add self-stagger to it (or forgot that its implemented like the torid and muta cernos thus the main damage is just a projectile strike that on lifetime end/death/impact spawns a bubble instead of the shot having a radial damage portion).

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On 2020-03-08 at 2:12 PM, IIAc3sII said:

So whats next, adding a new feature like self-stagger to all melee weapons because they are also used to go through hordes of enemies?

They did that more than a year ago when they ruined melee by forcing stances to apply instead of the old, lovely, fluid quick melee. Now almost every melee weapon stunlocks you. Those that don't will actually stop swinging when your attack speed is high enough (possibly made worse at high frame rate/refresh rate).

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On 2020-03-08 at 4:22 PM, LascarCapable said:

It's either this or back to self damage again. Can't have both.

Some explosive weapons are absurdly powerful to the point of wiping hordes of enemies far above level 100. Some form of restriction is very needed for the sake of balance.

Hmm oviously you don't know anything about endurance runs cause explaining explosive weapons with level 100 enemies which is nothing , especially after the armor rework even 400 level enemies can be killed like old 150 levels. Besides DE crate the unreal tournament in unreal tournament rocket laucher do self damage but not killing you instantly . Problem with the self damage desing is it shound't be scaled  from the weapon's own damage, instead it should do a static self damage like 100 damage and nothing higher than this. Besides those weapons already balanced with low ammo capacity , projectile based shooting type, reload time . Besides if we can't do aoe kills with an exploding weapon why are we even using them ? Seriously give me one good reason to use them on higher levels (Sadly higher levels are not level 100 btw) If I need to aim them like I am using a sniper rifle why wouldn't I choose a sniper ? Cause Snipers have way more single target damage no self stagger besides you already can't do proper meaning full aoe damage with exploding weapons anymore. 


Mate your illogical comment doesn't contributing the comunity so please before giving a feedback try to be logical and  examine the situation with all aspects. Have a nice day

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On 2020-03-08 at 8:22 AM, LascarCapable said:

It's either this or back to self damage again. Can't have both.

Some explosive weapons are absurdly powerful to the point of wiping hordes of enemies far above level 100. Some form of restriction is very needed for the sake of balance.

I disagree, outside of the Bramma I don't think any weapon would've dominated the meta with just the removal of self damage. But if they really perceive it this way, I'll take self damage back and just use these weapons on 2 frames again rather than using them on 0 frames.

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