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DE should give credit to creators of fan concepts they've already used.


Sweeney
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So I created this topic earlier today, only for it to be completely *poofed* removed. Not closed, no message, no warning, just GONE. Which is...suspicious behavior, really?

I'm gonna take a screenshot or record it, in case they try that again.

Now, on to the actual discussion:

This contest? The community designed Warframe thing? That's neat and all, but what about fan concepts that have already been used? What about Warframes that have already been added to the game which look suspiciously similar to fan concepts submitted on the forums, some of which were archived for years?

Basically, all I'm asking for, is credit where credit is due. It's not like in the past they haven't admitted to being inspired by a fan concept and ACTUALLY GAVE CREDIT TO THE FAN CONCEPT CREATOR:

The guy who inspired Zephyr? Yeah, aka Liger Inuzuka. The guy who went on to make some of the BEST deluxe skins in the game. We love the guy.

Now, we've established fan concepts DO IN FACT sometimes inspire what eventually becomes official Warframes. We've also established that sometimes, credit is given.

Now what I'm proposing is: sometimes, credit isn't given.

Me, personally? As someone who MAY be one of two people who at least partly inspired Grendel? I'd like a shout out. And honestly, even if they DIDN'T see my fan concept, they DEFINITELY took inspiration from (XB1)AxRollxOfxTape. The void warp hole on the stomach? The mace? The Oni theme? At least ONE OF US deserves acknowledgement.

Although I feel like the abilities were closer to my fan concept. Pulverize was copied word for word.

Anyway, I'm gonna hit record the moment I submit this topic. I don't know if the mods have all gone home for the day yet, but I'd rather at least get evidence that this thread exists, so I can point to it in the event they make it disappear again.

 

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Posts that are moved/merged appear the same as being deleted to the writer unless they know where it was moved to, because this Forum Software has always left a fair amount to be desired compared to its competition.

Edited by taiiat
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51 minutes ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

it would have been combined with another thread of the topic already existing

 

40 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Posts that are moved/merged appear the same as being deleted to the writer unless they know where it was moved to, because this Forum Software has always left a fair amount to be desired compared to its competition.

Merged, why?

There is no already existing topic.

Unless the morons barely glanced at the thread and assumed it was related to the contest?

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How does one prove that they actually came up with the idea of a Warframe first before DE? Receipts are very important to prove such claims.

And how would one prove that DE did use that specific concept for the Warframe? It's somewhat known for DE to have Warframes with original concepts awaiting to be made for a very long time, and in fact, there was an instance with Grendel which didn't involve his gameplay concept necessarily.

Not to stir or revive any drama, but this artist tried to claim that; they had originally designed a concept very similarly to Grendel in the past, and had a lot of suspicion since they believed that the customer who requested the sketches, pitched those to DE. However, when talking to them, they said they had the concept for Grendel since Sept 2018, which apparently predated their sketches. This might just be DE covering their behinds due to the implications of legal trouble, but considering how they had their own receipts and the artist seemed to called it off, I'd imagine it was just a basic misunderstanding.

The only way we'd know if DE were to explicitly say "Oh yeah, we used this concept/inspired by something that someone posted/made, thank you to so-and-so".

14 minutes ago, Sweeney said:

This contest? The community designed Warframe thing? That's neat and all, but what about fan concepts that have already been used? What about Warframes that have already been added to the game which look suspiciously similar to fan concepts submitted on the forums, some of which were archived for years?

Could you at least provide some context or examples? Except for the 1 instance where they did acknowledge it, which doesn't help your point.

27 minutes ago, Sweeney said:

Me, personally? As someone who MAY be one of two people who at least partly inspired Grendel? I'd like a shout out. And honestly, even if they DIDN'T see my fan concept, they DEFINITELY took inspiration from (XB1)AxRollxOfxTape. The void warp hole on the stomach? The mace? The Oni theme? At least ONE OF US deserves acknowledgement.

Although I feel like the abilities were closer to my fan concept. Pulverize was copied word for word.

Hmm, I'm starting to get a sense of someone feeling entitled to credit they "deserved". Sorry to imply that, but the fact you didn't really provide much in terms of examples of DE not giving credit to artists they apparently took inspiration from, and only mentioned your specific case of not being credited for Grendel... just seems off. Also, not trying to discredit your creativity, but the idea of an Oni Warframe is not exactly a unique thing to come up with. It's a common trope among many games and media, of a Oni/Demon with a mouth on it's stomach, using a club, and eating stuff. There have probably been multiple ideas for an Oni/Gluttony type of Warframe, with similar designs and concepts. So, should DE have to credit every single person that made anything similar to those ideas? Or only you (I know you mentioned another user, but you said "at least one of us" and said you made a point of being more closer to the Warframe)?

And on the topic of your previous thread disappearing, again, it might be a case of it merging with a similar thread. If it's not the case, then I'm just saying it could be that the mods do not find it an acceptable talking point. You're going after DE and demanding something out of them, and almost forming some sort of rally cry against them. Not saying you can't point this sort of stuff out, and definitely not say DE may have not credited someone for inspiration. But doing in a manner where you seem to be antagonistic doesn't help.

9 minutes ago, Sweeney said:

Unless the morons barely glanced at the thread and assumed it was related to the contest?

And that also doesn't help. I can understand that you may be upset over this situation, and you want some sort of compensation, but doing this isn't going to do much progress.

Just saying, it all could be a matter of coincidence and there's no malicious intent from DE. For example, with your Pulverize example, they originally called the ability Meatball, which I know was just a funny file name for it, but saying it was copied one for one is questionable. I'm just not sure if this thread was really made with good intentions.

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on topic, yes probably.

 

1 hour ago, Sweeney said:

Merged, why?

it's just a guess, it isn't necessarily an explanation, but it is a non obvious explanation due to the bad way this Forum Software handles such things.

1 hour ago, Sweeney said:

Yeah, it's not showing up at all under posts or topics or anything in my profile.

covered under the "anything moved/merged to the writer looks like it was deleted" - doesn't show on your Profile anymore, yes.

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7 hours ago, Sweeney said:

Now what I'm proposing is: sometimes, credit isn't given.

Me, personally? As someone who MAY be one of two people who at least partly inspired Grendel? I'd like a shout out. And honestly, even if they DIDN'T see my fan concept, they DEFINITELY took inspiration from (XB1)AxRollxOfxTape. The void warp hole on the stomach? The mace? The Oni theme? At least ONE OF US deserves acknowledgement.

Although I feel like the abilities were closer to my fan concept. Pulverize was copied word for word.

Anyway, I'm gonna hit record the moment I submit this topic. I don't know if the mods have all gone home for the day yet, but I'd rather at least get evidence that this thread exists, so I can point to it in the event they make it disappear again.

 

The thing is about work attribution is how far do you go and where do you stop? A Warframe with a mouth on its torso? Gurren Lagann has already done that. How about a mouth that eats matter? Gluttony from FMA. And someone more historically versed than me can probably tell me where they got that idea from. Oni with a mace? Again, not your idea exclusively. It's a very common depiction in Japanese mythology.
 

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See this is why I kinda hate fan concepts..... because there are thousands and thousands of people throwing up ideas left and right and regardless of if any of them actually stick, if a company goes with anything that is remotely similar there is always someone to say that their idea was taken. 

This brings me back to my Minecraft Forum days and the slew of concepts that where thrown up daily and all I could ever think was "great now this idea has become a minefield that Mojang will have to now actively avoid". Because if they went with anything remotely Similar someone was going to freak out about it being their idea and if the person who submitted it didn't then someone was going to freak out on their behalf. Then there where the actual logical "hey this just makes sense" mods that complicated things even further.... cause now not only is Mojang walking on eggshels with the concept but there is an actionable version of the implementation running around that they have to make sure anything they might have been working on doesn't look like it's infringing on. 

Hell I could claim that I invented cross save between consoles and portables because I sent an email off to Sony back when the PSP first launched because "ZOMG this would be the best thing EVER!"..... did I..... no, no I did not but it's really easy to feel like you did because common ideas are common. Hell Skies of Arcadia had essentially done a similar thing with Pintas Quest back on the Dreamcast with the VMUs, which was probably part of my unconscious inspiration. And I'm sure if I dig back farther there are likely many Many other examples of cross-save between a console and a portable. 

The Grendal thing earlier on is a perfect example, silhouettes of Armor that have faces built into their chests, DE musta taken the idea.... or..... that's a fairly common idea that has existed since the dawn of fantasy games/books/legends.But "hope DE has good lawyers", I see things like that and all I can think is "this is why we can't have nice things".  

 

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29 minutes ago, Oreades said:

The Grendal thing earlier on is a perfect example, silhouettes of Armor that have faces built into their chests, DE musta taken the idea.... or..... that's a fairly common idea that has existed since the dawn of fantasy games/books/legends.But "hope DE has good lawyers", I see things like that and all I can think is "this is why we can't have nice things".  

Pretty much this. Heck the guy claiming he came up with the idea must have lived in a cave since the 90's. Since the whole belly-face + Oni thing became a very common part of WHFB at the end of the 90s early 2k through the Ogre Kingdoms faction. Not to mention that it has been part of Nurgle prior to that and in other media we've already had the glutton with a belly mouth in the shape of Ghom in D3.

And looking at those slender Oni concepts linked here I'm more inclined to think DE went with the original Oni myth concept or just gluttonous trolls/ogres in general, hence the name Grendel, since he/it is one of the most (in)famous trolls/ogres in history.

edit: As for giving credit to a specific player, that is really hard in many cases. In Zephyr's case it may have been a unique idea that inspired them. But if they were to go and say dedicate a thanks to 1 specific person as the root of inspiration regarding something like a "Thor" frame, it would be a slipperly slope since that is an idea that gets balled around by many people. It wouldnt be possible for them to honestly give thanks to a player unless the idea to such a frame would be perfectly unique, like DE deciding to use the exact concept of it down to the smallest point. At which point it would be more a thanks for the full design and not just the inspiration to it.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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What fan concept ? Do you have precise example ? Did you submit a well documented and dated design proposal ? Or was it just an idea that you let out on the forums at random ?

For the case of Grendel, you invented the concept of a big guy eating and spitting out things ? Yeah, that's such a groundbreaking concept...

Anyone can come up with design ideas, and everything has already been invented. No matter what they do, it has been done before one way or another. So unless you can prove that your concept has been copied to the letter, you're just crying because DE got inspired by public and free archetypes that vaguely resembles an idea that you had one day. And even if your idea was stolen to the letter, if you didn't protect your creation, it's entirely your fault, and may that be a lesson to you.

 

But yeah, it's very hard to take you seriously when you're just presenting us conspiracy theory and claims on frankly non original ideas (again, a fat guy, eating stuff, rolling into a ball, and weilding a mace... Soooo original)

At this point, I'll sue DE for umbra excal, because I invented the concept of a lone wolf with a tortured past during my goth phase, right ?

 

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When DE uses a fan concept or artwork for a frame or deluxe skin, they provide credit to the creator; in the past they have publicly announced when something was inspired and given a free copy of said item to the player who created the concept.

If something they create seems similar to a fan concept but they don't provide credit, that means it's coincidence that it shares similarities to the concept. Sharing similarities does does not necessarily mean that they drew upon the concept for ideas.

With how many users that are active on the forums and posting fan concepts, it's impossible for there to not be some overlap between concepts or with what DE has come up with themselves. You might think that you were one of the people who inspired Grendel, but that's just it. You think you were, but it's probably just coincidence (see Scruffel's post).

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