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Enemy Balancing And Avoiding (Grineer)


snipeorigin
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Many players may complain about how easy the game has gotten for them. Nightmare missions and high level Void quests are a very good place for those experienced players.

 

However I am irritated by some enemies and their disproportional damage output (compared to other units of the same (weight) category).

 

Demonstration Video:

 

Grineer Scorchers:

 

These are the flamethrower-carriers in white camo. Even on low level they tear down your shields in an instand. If you stay only 2 seconds in their area of effect (AOE) range you're basically dead, especially on higher levels.

It often happened to me before, that I got surprised from a Scorcher lingering around a corner. I couldn't even react as fast as I died. Implementing some kind of scaling over time would a good idea, giving you the chance to react.

 

 

Grineer Hellion:

 

These are the jetpack units in desert camo, only appearing on Phobos, which fire of homing missiles with devastating power. And thats not balanced right. If you fight against a troop of Grineers it's simply impossible to take care of the fast flying, even bullet dodging Hellion units. And since the missiles home and one set of fired missiles, often take care of your shields and most of your health, you'll know whats going to happen to you when you hear the missiles launching.

More importantly the AOE and homing attributes, paired with the salve of missiles launched makes it unfair and needs to be fixed. Insta-deaths are unfair and frustrating.

 

 

Grineer Eviserator:

 

Don't dare getting caught near a wall when they fire. Their Miter is (ironically) overpowered and will slice you multiple times in a homing manner. It doesn't seem as if collision detection is calculated when they fire, nor do the saw blades bounce of the walls in any logic manner. Same here, you hear the sound of clinging metal near you and you will experience a fast death.

 

 

Grineer Bombard and Napalm:

 

These are heavy units and they are strong. I don't think they need a nerf but their attack mechanics are very close to broken.

Bombard fires many slow and homing missiles with high power, killing shields on higher levels with a single missile. They home, being able to fly in a very tight arc and the AOE seems to be very wide. Combined with the unfinished dodge mechanic often end in an frustrating death upon surprise attacks.

 

 

Napalm:

Are fine but the fire left by his blast has an invisible hitbox. You'll catch fire 5-10 meters away from the incinerated ground obscuring sight and making the fight unpredictable.

 

 

Raptor (Boss): 

 

I assume he also is only a placeholder boss but he fires just a few missiles too many if a bullet slips your barrel at the wrong time.

 

 

Dodging:

 

Just like in Monster Hunter, Dark Souls and Phantasy Star Portable, dodging needs invincibility frames. That's a must in such an big and immersive action title.

 

 

Blocking:

 

Being able to block homing missiles and maybe even reflecting missles without recieving a major chunk of the damage anyway should be integrated. However an overhaul of blocking and evasion mechanics is already being worked on I assume judging by the statements made in the Dev Livestreams.

 

Thank you for reading my post and opinions.

 

 

 

Disclaimers:

 

I am a seasoned player and am aware that there are ways and abilities (such as Rhinos Iron Skin) to prevent instantaneous deaths however that doesn't contribute to balancing the game, which DE is working very hard on.

 

I really love this game and this post is supposed to be constructive criticism and not destructive cynicism.

 

By that I want to contribute to the development of Warframe and I would love if you guys would share your ideas and opinion with me as well. I'm looking forward to your posts :)

Edited by snipeorigin
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Scorchers and Eviscerators are a problem. 
Napalms and Bombards are nowhere near as bad, they're supposed to be dangerous units, and they are but capable of killing you by surprise before you notice them. Although yes, the napalm fire does have a screwed up hitbox that needs to be fixed. 
Seek cover when Raptor fires the missiles, that's why he has a unique boss stage with multiple buildings and crates to hide in. 
Dodging does indeed need invincibility frames. 
And how do you expect us to block and reflect missile without getting blown up? Catch them? 

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u are now half inviible while dodjing

 

u have now mods alled: Parry,Reflect and some other

 

for ennemies complaint ill say that u should use your skills more they are not really a big deal but maybe youe equipment is not strong enough for high lvl

 

 

edit:

 

i agree cat

catching missile could be epic

Edited by Tsoe
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Scorchers and Eviscerators are a problem. 

Napalms and Bombards are nowhere near as bad, they're supposed to be dangerous units, and they are but capable of killing you by surprise before you notice them. Although yes, the napalm fire does have a screwed up hitbox that needs to be fixed. 

Seek cover when Raptor fires the missiles, that's why he has a unique boss stage with multiple buildings and crates to hide in. 

Dodging does indeed need invincibility frames. 

And how do you expect us to block and reflect missile without getting blown up? Catch them? 

Maybe slice them in half? We Tenno can reflect bullets with a sword already, how difficult can it be to reflect a (in comparison)  slow rocket?

Edited by snipeorigin
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u are now half inviible while dodjing

 

u have now mods alled: Parry,Reflect and some other

 

for ennemies complaint ill say that u should use your skills more they are not really a big deal but maybe youe equipment is not strong enough for high lvl

 

 

edit:

 

i agree cat

catching missile could be epic

I doublt that. I don't think you read the disclaimer. The new mods aren't implemented very well aswell but thats another topic on its own.

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I agree on dodging. Invulnerability frames are a MUST!

However, I am half-and-half on the blocking. I feel that there should be "Heavy" and "Light" attacks. Light attacks are mostly, if not entirely mitigated by blocking, but the "Heavy" attacks should be mitigated very little, to emphasize dodging.

I have a thread about pretty much the exact same thing regarding dodging and blocking (and a little more) found in my "About Me" page, for anyone who cares (Yes, I actually use my About Me page).

As for the other points in your post,

I also agree that the damage is "up there" for Eviscerators and Scorchers. I had heard belief that the Ignis became so OP to Scorchers because Ignis was buffed. If this is true this means we literally use their weapons; stats and all! If this is the case I think it might take a bit of work to rebalance the enemies into doing reasonable damage because they will have to separate the weapons into "Player" and "Enemy".

Of course if this is all untrue then I guess all that was a waste of space.

Napalms have also been a bit of a problem with those invisible hitboxes. Even the initial explosion is quite large for a small package; similar to a nuke. The Bombard is only annoying to me in the fact that his missiles turn very fast. I can prevent myself from getting hit by them in most cases, but this is often due to leading them into walls Road Runner style.

^ conclusion: Napalms need an AoE proportional to the animation. No "Mini-Nukes". Bombard missiles need a more broad turning radius so it doesn't turn into a never-ending chase.

Hellion's also hurt. The speed of the missiles I'll be okay with, since I can still take cover, but they certainly need to go down a bit in damage.

Same goes for Raptor.

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I agree on dodging. Invulnerability frames are a MUST!

However, I am half-and-half on the blocking. I feel that there should be "Heavy" and "Light" attacks. Light attacks are mostly, if not entirely mitigated by blocking, but the "Heavy" attacks should be mitigated very little, to emphasize dodging.

I have a thread about pretty much the exact same thing regarding dodging and blocking (and a little more) found in my "About Me" page, for anyone who cares (Yes, I actually use my About Me page).

As for the other points in your post,

I also agree that the damage is "up there" for Eviscerators and Scorchers. I had heard belief that the Ignis became so OP to Scorchers because Ignis was buffed. If this is true this means we literally use their weapons; stats and all! If this is the case I think it might take a bit of work to rebalance the enemies into doing reasonable damage because they will have to separate the weapons into "Player" and "Enemy".

Of course if this is all untrue then I guess all that was a waste of space.

Napalms have also been a bit of a problem with those invisible hitboxes. Even the initial explosion is quite large for a small package; similar to a nuke. The Bombard is only annoying to me in the fact that his missiles turn very fast. I can prevent myself from getting hit by them in most cases, but this is often due to leading them into walls Road Runner style.

^ conclusion: Napalms need an AoE proportional to the animation. No "Mini-Nukes". Bombard missiles need a more broad turning radius so it doesn't turn into a never-ending chase.

Hellion's also hurt. The speed of the missiles I'll be okay with, since I can still take cover, but they certainly need to go down a bit in damage.

Same goes for Raptor.

+1

 

I'll definitely check your post and maybe start using my About Me page as well. :P

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So, basically you want a lot of identical enemies with DE commiting suicide in efforts to make these enemies not boring. Lame.

There is no such thing as absolute overlord of doom. Scorchers are clear glass cannons, hellions are warriors of the open (And yes, despite homing, barely 1-2 rockets actually hit you if no cover is taken) and stuff. The one thing I actually bothered is corpus sniper that not kill you in 2-3 shots with his Lanka.

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Scorches

These guys used to do reasonable damage, but then DE made them scale through the roof. A level 60 Scorch can destroy a full iron skin in 1-2 seconds. Two solutions: The easy way is to just reduce their damage and scaling. The hard (and IMO better) way is to make their flamethrowers require a "warm up" period of 1-2 seconds (with loud ignition rumbling) before they can fire, so you have a chance to either run or counter before they roast you.

 

Hellions

The only reason they're unbalanced is due to the homing nature of their rockets. Make the rockets non-homing and simply spread out in uncontrolled random zig-zag patterns in the initially targeted general area (like a shotgun rocket launcher) and we're good to go. Also make their jetpacks actually explode when shot by a player instead of fizzle away, damaging the Hellion himself and surrounding enemies. Jetpacks also need to do much less damage on detonation post-mortem of the Hellion, those things hit for hundreds of damage to players right now, yet are fast and unpredictable.

 

Eviscerators

Their damage is indeed rather rediculous. A good solution would be to decrease their spawn rate and promote them to "elite" status, and i don't mean elite lancers kind of elite, i mean the Heavies kind of elite, with buffed health, shields and such. Give them two modes of fire, a regular shot that have much slower fire rate than they have now with same damage as current (no rebounding), and a "rapid burst" mode that requires 2-3 seconds of charging up (with clear notifications via sound and animations), and fires half a dozen blades at double their current fire rate, 75% current damage per blade, and rebounding blades. Keeps them as a force to be reckoned with, but reasonably so.

 

Bombards

Their explosive radius seems fine, it's their perfect homing that's overly irritating. Removing their homing capabilities (or at least vastly decreasing them) while increasing their projectile speed would be fine.

 

Napalms

Their explosive radius is WAY too large, to the point it even seems like a bug instead of intended. Reduce explosive radius, done.

 

Raptor

Needs a complete re-make like they did with Vor, not just rebalance it. A re-make idea: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/98838-raptor-revamp-concept-with-image/#entry1121407

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The funny fact is, actual rockets fly faster than bullets from this fancy SMG.

 They actually reach the speed of light.

 

 

Scorches

These guys used to do reasonable damage, but then DE made them scale through the roof. A level 60 Scorch can destroy a full iron skin in 1-2 seconds. Two solutions: The easy way is to just reduce their damage and scaling. The hard (and IMO better) way is to make their flamethrowers require a "warm up" period of 1-2 seconds (with loud ignition rumbling) before they can fire, so you have a chance to either run or counter before they roast you.

 

Hellions

The only reason they're unbalanced is due to the homing nature of their rockets. Make the rockets non-homing and simply spread out in uncontrolled random zig-zag patterns in the initially targeted general area (like a shotgun rocket launcher) and we're good to go. Also make their jetpacks actually explode when shot by a player instead of fizzle away, damaging the Hellion himself and surrounding enemies. Jetpacks also need to do much less damage on detonation post-mortem of the Hellion, those things hit for hundreds of damage to players right now, yet are fast and unpredictable.

 

Eviscerators

Their damage is indeed rather rediculous. A good solution would be to decrease their spawn rate and promote them to "elite" status, and i don't mean elite lancers kind of elite, i mean the Heavies kind of elite, with buffed health, shields and such. Give them two modes of fire, a regular shot that have much slower fire rate than they have now with same damage as current (no rebounding), and a "rapid burst" mode that requires 2-3 seconds of charging up (with clear notifications via sound and animations), and fires half a dozen blades at double their current fire rate, 75% current damage per blade, and rebounding blades. Keeps them as a force to be reckoned with, but reasonably so.

 

Bombards

Their explosive radius seems fine, it's their perfect homing that's overly irritating. Removing their homing capabilities (or at least vastly decreasing them) while increasing their projectile speed would be fine.

 

Napalms

Their explosive radius is WAY too large, to the point it even seems like a bug instead of intended. Reduce explosive radius, done.

 

Raptor

Needs a complete re-make like they did with Vor, not just rebalance it. A re-make idea: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/98838-raptor-revamp-concept-with-image/#entry1121407

 

I dig your ideas! +1

Edited by snipeorigin
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1) You can't dodge a Grineer Napalmers attack regardless of what you do (the AoE is too large and the blast goes through walls)

 

2) At higher levels you will be 1 shot by anything that can touch you.

 

3) I lied you CAN dodge it by running forward and trying to kick them in the face, but chances are they will knock you down then laugh as they put their gun in your mouth and feed you. Napalm is not food.

 

4) Fire resistance is pointless because the exponential growth of their attacks scales too high damage wise.

 

5) Just don't do Grineer Survival Missions and if you do, head out after the 5 min are up.

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1) You can't dodge a Grineer Napalmers attack regardless of what you do (the AoE is too large and the blast goes through walls)

 

2) At higher levels you will be 1 shot by anything that can touch you.

 

3) I lied you CAN dodge it by running forward and trying to kick them in the face, but chances are they will knock you down then laugh as they put their gun in your mouth and feed you. Napalm is not food.

 

4) Fire resistance is pointless because the exponential growth of their attacks scales too high damage wise.

 

5) Just don't do Grineer Survival Missions and if you do, head out after the 5 min are up.

These are facts. Sad facts...

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Only problems i have with grineers is stupidly high scaling on scorchers (beating even heavy gunners around 80lvl and going up as they get even higher) and ofc aoe knockdown on heavy units, which is unavoidable, outranges embolist(nearly 10m aoe knockdown?? seriously??) and is death sentence with another heavy unit or squad of lancers nearby

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