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My proposed Kuva lich/ Nemesis system


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To start off I have to say that I think that the kuva lich system and its respective nemesis system is a great idea not just because of its inspiration from shadow of war but as well as its potential to add a new level of depth to the current events and missions happening in Warframe. 


However before going into what I mean by that there are some things that the system needs improvement on in its current state and given that these ideas don’t happen, I’d like to give possible suggestions as to how to address these.


Faster murmur farming or short cuts for it


I think most would agree that the farm of a kuva lich weapon is far too long in spite of it being a special weapon and not only is it long it doesn’t feel interesting. It feels as though we’re in the same mission massacring everything and only doing one little thing different which I believe that when said to most would call it brain dead. 


The first thing that I would like to suggest in accordance with this is a puzzle or special missions that can speed up the process of murmur farming. These puzzles or missions otherwise have a challenge that need to be completed and not something that takes a few minutes, as that wouldn’t be challenging at all. These missions can result with an increase in murmur or a hint at the combination or specific requiem mod needed, or can actually just give the specific requiem mod needed outright. Now I know what most of you might be thinking, this might be too great of a reward, and yes it is, it definitely saves us the trouble. However with that the challenge/mission should be challenging enough should the player not know what to do and acts only as an option to speed up the farming process. 


This not only adds a little challenge into the mix of kuva lich farming, but also gets us out of the loop of normal missions while being able to decrease the farm should the player choose this option. 


Getting rid of a lich mid way


One of the other systems that players have requested is a system to get rid of a lich midway. This in my opinion also has a simple solution, it's just merely having a special mission on the kuva fortress for a specific item. This specific item will be used to get rid of the lich. However similarly to the first suggestion of missions where it would include a challenging puzzle, or perhaps sacrificing the charge of requiem mods or an entire requiem mod in order to get this item. (all random requiem mods) 


Lessening the drop pool of kuva weapons and spreading the drop list amongst the planets.


What I mean by this is effectively locking down some weapons on particular planets, where if a lich spawns from a particular planet it will not have to take a drop from the entire kuva weapon drop list. Basically this means planets controlled by grineer have say 3 to 5 weapons that have a possibility of dropping. This effectively decreases the RNG for the better kuva weapons to drop.


More reasons to farm kuva liches other than their weapons (MORE DROPS NEEDED)

Self explanatory. (Leave suggestions)


These are in my opinion the main issue that most players want addressed excluding suggestions which add brand new content to this system. 


Now I'm going to address the brand new content which I personally would like to see in this system and to further relate back to what I said earlier about its potential. 


  1. More creative system of presenting kuva weapons


First off, I want to ask, who likes the design of the kuva larvalings? And also who finds the new system of knowing your kuva weapon to be convenient but rather lazy? If your answer is “no” to the first, and “I agree” to the second then there’s honestly a simple answer to both, literally just make them hold the weapon in the first place. I would personally rather see a variation of the regular grineer soldiers holding an unkuvafied version of the respective weapon than, as harsh as this sounds a lazy copy pasted model from the first night wave season. On a lore perspective I can see them wearing the same clothes but only in the process of becoming a kuva lich behind the scenes. If DE wanted them to stand out a grineer with a different armor scheme could have fit the job just as well. Yes I know that DE may be forced to create unkuvafied versions (of weapons that don’t have their respective versions) now thanks to this if it gets implemented, but it’s not really otherwise needed and I don’t think most of us would complain that much about not getting them in that version as they'd probably be worse anyway. To me this sounds like something way better than slapping on a picture and a name tag above an enemy, not really creative when you think about it doesn’t it?


  1. Unique encounters and event missions centered around the kuva lich


Next off the top of my head, is unique encounters with said kuva liches. No I don’t mean it appearing and disappearing. This idea is taken out of shadow of Mordor and War in that the kuva liches are free to roam around in the open world. Kuva liches if the player doesn’t do anything in their sector just hide despite acting as our nemesis. It’s as if they don’t do anything but hide sitting on an imaginary throne. They are actually waiting for you to do something, how nice of them to wait. This relates back to what I suggested earlier in regards to special missions. These encounters can act as event missions which can grant special rewards but as said earlier increased murmurs (at the very least).


List of special activities kuva liches can do as operations:

  • kuva rituals

  • Kuva collecting (no not kuva siphons or floods, it’s own mission is what I’d say separate)

  • “Optimizing the local workforce”, as in actually trying to take control of the planet that is their sector (can come in so many things in my opinion)


These are some of them, the third one is self explanatory and can range from a variety of activities on the planet. I want it to be so that they have a chance to appear or conduct operations, of course I don’t expect the player to defeat them or for the lich to appear, just a special mission directed by the lich. These could appear as it’s own event quest or an extra objective to the thrall missions that has a chance of spawning. Also these can also be said to work similarly as incursions in the open world in the past and id very much like to see my lich walking around with an entourage doing something in the open world areas. 


With these missions there is a consequence for not doing them and the consequence with this lies in another suggestion, its adding an exp bar for them to level up on. This will be expounded more going through with more of the suggestions. As for these missions though, the basic consequence for letting them be is the lich getting some exp from this on the side. So it effectively makes us have a reason to do these missions (in terms of the lich getting stronger that will come later) other than the increased murmur farm. 


These missions kinda breathe in a new depth to kuva liches than just being there and waiting. The liches are present in normal missions but don’t do anything or show up, and in the future going to be in railjack most likely with no changes to how they work if DE keeps this up. 


  1. Parazon upgrade system for more efficient kuva lich hunting (the more you play the faster and more rewarding it gets)


I’m sure when you play a game it’s boring and frustrating for you to play the same activity again and not getting faster or getting more rewards the more you play. Here is a suggestion geared towards that. Upgradable parazons, an inspiration taken from destiny 2’s chalice of opulence.


By upgrading the parazon the following rewards can be expected:


  • increased requiem relic drops from thralls

  • Possible direct requiem mod drop from thralls that is related to killing the lich

  • Guaranteed discovery of requiem mod in the form of a poem


These are just samples, but basically increased chances of rewards and the possibility of more rewards, all geared towards helping you lessen the time needed to hunt your lich.


I also want to suggest placing the new currency used to upgrade the parazon to be dropped by requiem relics, perhaps as it’s rare drop. 


Another possibility would be to have it drop from liches and their minions, which will be explained next. 


  1. Consequence for letting time pass or ignoring the kuva lich and introduction to “High thralls” (To be added with new suggestions)


The third idea is an advanced form of the kuva lich “kingpin” system. As of this moment there is no consequence for letting a lich live, we just come back to the game and our lich technically isn’t “ranking up in the world” as our lich says or we just go about our business doing missions not bothering the planet the lich is on. One can say oh increase his level while we’re away, but no, that’s too simple. How about our lich is slowly adding unique grineer or say “High thralls” to their ranks to serve them. I mean it’s a fair consequence of letting your nemesis live after all. But wait there's more, there are actually helpful reasons why these guys exist in terms of farming as I will soon explain


4a.) High thrall spawning mechanics

High thralls will spawn guaranteed if the player leaves the lich alive long enough

High thralls will spawn if the Lich is angry enough to take the player out, 

If the lich levels up without killing the high thrall the lich will guarantee spawn more high thralls up to max of 3.

High thralls have a chance of spawning from killing a thralls (low chance)


4b.) High thrall murmur farming mechanics (speeding up the farming process)


In addition to this I want to suggest this as a special way of discovering the requiem mods we need, each high thrall representing an unknown piece of the combination that when defeated will reveal it or at the very least give us more murmurs. (parazon upgrades stated in 3. Can help with this)  I mean better than wasting 2-3 hours doing the complete same thing. 


When High thralls are killed they will have a chance to drop a piece of the poem (flavor text beneath requiem mods, instant requiem mod discovery) or give increased murmurs to speed up the process of murmur farming. When all the poems are put together you get the combination. If High thralls drop the riddle the lich will level up immediately and aggro bar gets a good portion filled out on their next level.


4c.) High thrall activity mechanics : INVASION MISSIONS, MAKE THEM USEFUL AGAIN. 


These “High thralls' ' will also do the special event activities as said in 2. High thralls will slowly level up if enough of their event missions are not completed. High thralls have a max level of 3 instead of 5 unlike the lich. The highlight event would be turf wars between high thralls and for them to rise in the ranks and get stronger via these turf wars. These “High thralls” also similarly have an exp bar as suggested prior in 2.


Sample rewards/consequences for helping one thrall:


  • Higher levels in their territory

  • Might save the player when they need them without conquering them (limited/one time use)

  • More exp to level up

  • Refunds portion of stolen resources 

  • High thrall possibility to level up

  • A chance of killing one of the thralls


Sample rewards/consequences for not helping a lich


  • Lower levels in their territory

  • Hunts down the player more frequently

  • High Thrall goes down by a level or doesn’t level up


If the player chooses to do nothing one among the two high thralls will be chosen to level up


One last small detail as far as this mechanic goes, if the player chooses the long route of trying to get murmurs and not kill the “High thrall” to discover the requiem mods needed and kills the original lich, these “High thralls” will rise in rank and replace the original lich. Again you let your lich spawn followers, this is the consequence.  


4d.) High thrall killing mechanics


Similarly to liches the only way to kill these High thralls are via requiem mods. Unlike needing 3 requiem mods to kill one lich, High thralls only need 1 (only one health bar instead of 3). Now this can go in two options depending on what would be liked more.


  1. Random requiem mod 


This option basically just allows us to kill a high thrall with any requiem mod and using one charge. Quick and simple.


  1. Required requiem mod


This option on the other hand does need you to have a specific requiem mod equipped to kill a high thrall. As said earlier, High thralls have a max level cap of 3 unlike their lich masters. Like their lich masters they can level up and escape encounters with you until you have the right requiem mod. The requiem mod needed to kill the high thrall will be one of the mods you need to kill the lich. 


This option seems less favorable I know, but since they only have 1 health bar, you can essentially keep testing for the right requiem mod until you kill it. I know its redundant since I listed that High thralls have the chance to just drop the needed requiem mod out right, and yes you can scratch that off since you will obviously know once you kill him. You still however get a chance at the piece of the poem (flavor text of requiem mods) which will show you the combination when put together with the others.


If people go with this option despite it being the longer path, then I would suggest that there needs to be a parazon upgrade to assist in this area and make this part effectively shorter


I want to add that no new high thralls will be spawning with new requiem mods needed to kill them if this method was chosen. If the 3 requiem mods needed to kill the lich are Fass, Netra, Jahu. High thralls under that lich will only spawn with these requiem mods needed to kill them.


Conquering High thralls


Now I'm not sure if this is a good idea of being able to conquer high thralls. I’d make the excuse saying even though they have kuva it might not be enough to control them like a normal lich. Other than that I’d say that High thralls would be locked as high thralls even if you conquered them so its more motivation to go after liches instead. 


Perhaps if people would really like to conquer high thralls, then there should be a system in place to level them up to the status of liches.


(Side note: The last thing I wanted to add in regard to this is that the original lich can recruit more “High thralls” as the level gets higher to I’d say 5 so it acts like a class system where the levels from the highest (kingpin) go to the (level 1 high thrall)  lowest. Supposedly the player would have to defeat the lowest to make its way to the top. However this part in my opinion is way too wonky and could mess with the system of things more so since we only have 3 requiem mods needed in our parazon anyway.)


I know the last three suggestions were basically me expounding on the possible options that can act as a shortcut to murmur farming while still being interesting and adding some new stuff for them. For the next suggestions I’m probably going to go really out there and say whatever came to my mind when I first thought of these.


  1. Very unique lich encounters and spawning


Going back to my side note earlier what I mean by this is that we can spawn very unique liches depending on a multitude of different factors. This is taken completely out of shadow of mordor where a lich’s personality and traits were dependent on a specific way a player killed them. These have a chance of spawning a very unique and powerful nemesis every once in a while if the player was lucky. How can this be adapted in warframe? 


This can be done in two ways


  1. Environment system


There are a multitude of different factors that can be considered, this list will include general factors and at the moment limited to grineer:


  • Planet or by variant (Arid, Frontier, Drekar, Kuva, Standard)

  • Manner in which they were killed (Weapons or abilities)

  • Strongest damage type of weapon used to kill (IPS, Elements)

  • Map/Destination/Tileset/

-  On the open world: special locations such as caves, special interest locations, structures etc.


  • Warframes (as we already have in the game) 

  • Gender (Not a factor for grineer since there are definite enemies who are male and female, however perhaps other factions have you know?)

  • Type of enemy (Scorcher, Bombardier, Heavy gunner, ballista, standard grineer etc.)

  • (Idk what else can you guys think of)


If this list was expanded there would be a lot of factors they could have included not just the warframe system. Other than that these specific factors can lead to ways to spawn particular liches and their more unique versions as well. 


Despite listing these factors down I have to admit these are still quite vague. 


Think about it:


  • Kill a larvaling in a cave: Has the chance to develop into a mole rat kuva lich who only steals gems and minerals

  • Kill a  larvaling diver on uranus: Has the chance to develop into a shark-esqe kuva lich 

  • Kill a larvaling on Earth (Frontier grineer): Has a chance to turn into a hunter adapted to the forest

  • Kill a larvaling manic: Has a chance to spawn a manic lich (Probably insanity, but I’m really excited for this one!) 

  • Kill a larvaling close to a thumper construction site on the plains (Tusk grineer) : Has a chance to spawn machine driven lich who has a kuva thumper (LOL)

  • Etc, etc, etc, etc, 


  1. Nemesis quirk system (props to add name here)


Adding to this is a quirk system. The addition of a quirk system is one that is highly anticipated for this system as it has the ability to both raise the difficulty of the nemesis as well as differentiating them. Essentially the lich will gain a new quirk which makes it gain new attacks or defenses against the player. However I do believe one of the reasons this system is highly sought after by the player base is due to desiring the same result as shadow of war; and that result are unique liches with attacks, weapons, designs (both mechanically and aesthetically) differentiate themselves from the rest. For this system it should be designed that a new quirk should be added on almost every level, or every level depending on what you prefer. 


Going back to what was said in 2. Depending on the perks that a lich could inherit it could make them a whole new threat all together and gives more reason to do special event missions to not let them get exp to level up.


Like shadow of war, these come in innate strengths, weaknesses, attacks, and defenses


Samples (no names just mechanics)

  • comes with an entourage of thralls and high thralls

  • Sets down traps

  • Enraged mode

  • Unable to be knocked down

  • Damage reflection

  • Dynamic movements (as simple as a nox’s charge to as unpredictable as a manic’s) 

  • Etc etc etc


These quirks can have the mechanic of having a higher chance to spawn a specific unique lich and or high thrall similarly to shadow of war.


This is also the reason I wish they just made new variants out of existing models because it had the potential to come to this with the variety of designs.


This list of factors can go on and on and that's what I honestly love about this aspect in shadow of war. All of these guys would naturally have their own personalities, traits, weapons and designs. Now I know with this suggestion I can never hope for the number of unique liches to be as great as shadow of war and if DE were to ever consider or even do this I’d expect it to come slowly and much like everyone else definitely prefers it over them needing to churn out content hastily.


Yes I do realize its RNG over RNG much like shadow of war as it requires RNG for specific larvaling to spawn (A) or specific trait (B) and another RNG on the manner and place they are killed (A) or relying on pure chance (B). Thankfully with the newly introduced system of not needing to kill you're lich at the start to get a new one the first part of the RNG is neutralized and with my suggestion it would also neutralize the second part.


No I do not believe that both of these systems can be used at the same time if the number of factors are downgraded greatly. This adds another level of RNG which I doubt would be manageable and will more so be frustrating for players. Though should the thought arise I would suspect that were the two combined it would be a very dubbed down version of (A) and more focused on (B) as I believe (B) would be easier to implement in the long term.


 I’d also like to add that liches also have a chance to spawn these special liches as “high thralls” from 4.  as a means of lessening the RNG of unique liches.



  1. A new depth to invasions and faction interactions


As we know invasions are basically factions at war with each other. With the introduction of liches or the nemesis system, DE has given life to certain enemies within their respective factions. We already know DE is also going to add lich versions for the Corpus, Infested, and most likely sentients as well. So you can probably see where I’m going with this, similar to turf wars between liches said in 4. is that these liches of different factions go to war with each other over territory in their sectors.


The sphere of influence lich’s and their “High thralls” have grown slowly from planet to planet, other factions can interfere with the expansion in a special invasion. These special invasions will allow the player to decide which among their faction liches they want to help. 


As such if the player were to help one or the other the faction that loses has their territory decreased. In terms of the size of territory, I would like liches from the factions on a single planet duking it out for power. So essentially if a kuva lich has control of one planet, a corpus lich can come and try to take some territory, given that the lich wins one invasion he will gain some of the territory. If enough invasions are done and the corpus lich wins all of them then essentially the planet now belongs to him, thereby kicking out the resident lich or possibly killing the kuva lich. Like normal invasions the “High thrall” or lich the player supports is rewarded by them. 


Sample rewards:


  • Stays indifferent for longer and stops caring 

  • Does not steal you're resources for a given amount of time

  • New weapons???

  • New Mods???

  • May actually spawn to save and help you in a mission without the player needing to conquer them (limited uses)

  • Taxes less in their territory of the loser

  • The sector of the lich you chose to not help becomes weaker

  • Chance of the occupying lich dying (chance to happen upon planet take over by other factions)


However like normal invasions there are consequences for not helping the other faction


Sample consequences:


  • More “High thralls” are sent to hunt the player down

  • Special assassins Acolytes perhaps????? 

  • More aggro from the lich

  • Taxes more in the territory of the winner

  • The sector of the lich you chose to help becomes more difficult and will get a lot of exp to level up

  • More event missions for the lich you helped might occur giving them a chance to level up


To add a special consequence for helping either side is the type of resources they steal. So that would mean that the grineer stole particular resources versus the corpus and infested. So depending on what the player needs they may need to consider which side they want to support.


(Side note: Factions stealing particular resources and or mods from the player need to be expounded upon to its own suggestion I know. However without the addition of corpus or infested liches I can't really say it deserves it yet.)


These new invasion missions are not only limited to the enemy factions but also extend to friendly factions, basically resistances against the liches. 




  • attack on iron wake

  • Fortuna resistance

  • As well as other new missions related to friendly factions


With this it breathes a new life into invasions as there are new missions to partake in and more mechanics and unique interactions from the factions in the world. It makes invasions not just doing the same thing but for a different reward. It also makes invasions have more of a purpose than merely waiting for the next fomorian event or razorback event to come by.


  1. Puzzle/Maze kuva flag ships (Straight to the lich)


Despite the great number of methods I suggested I’m sure there are still some of you who are absurdly lazy to go through this process. So here is the introduction of kuva lich puzzle/maze ships. Kuva lich ships will house a puzzle for anyone who wants a direct path in killing their lich, this ship will be accessible the moment the lich becomes active. 


To get through the maze only the right combination of requiem mods will show the path to the lich. If the combination is containing some of the right mods it will partially guide the player but not through every room. Walking into the wrong room can either result in a room full of enemies, traps, or instant death. Rooms with traps or instant death can be disarmed by completing a puzzle in the room, however this will not be the case for every one of those rooms. This path is for those who would rather skip the process, and depending on one's luck in guessing the right combination can make a quick beeline for the lich and quickly take them out. However, there is of course still a consequence other than time. If the player dies enough times the lich will level up, and the number of rooms one must navigate through will also increase by a set amount. (This will occur whenever he levels up whether the player dies in the ship or levels the lich up outside via the wrong combination of requiem mods)


Also if the lich has summoned some high thralls in their ranks they will have a higher chance of appearing on this mission. 


  1. More liches of the same faction, not just one


In conjunction to the suggestions I made earlier in the document, its adding more liches to the roster than merely having 1. This mechanic is mainly to have more personalities and to further amplify the already suggested system of turf wars happening between high thralls, liches from other factions and this time liches from the same faction. I don't really need to repeat myself as the benefits and consequences are the same as already stated earlier. The max number of liches if I would say would also be 3, just to be on the safe side. With the addition of more liches I would like liches to be confined to one planet instead of liches just somehow able to conquer multiple planets (as if one guy can govern that much). 


  1. More reasons needed for conquering liches


Now with all the systems I’ve suggested so far, I think it's time to address this. At this moment, there's no reason to conquer liches other than for trading, I mean they fight alongside you and save you but that's honestly just occasionally. From this point there really isn't much use for catching liches on a practical standpoint, at least in the current system we have in game at this moment. With the suggestion of another class which are the  “High thralls” and adding an added number of liches to the scene and more to come since other factions will one day get them as well, there is now a use for these guys. If you don't know what I am talking about, it's basically ordering you're liches to target “High thralls' ' and Liches alike. Similar to how you order orcs to do special assaults and ambushes against other orcs in shadow of war. These can be a good way to trigger event missions to happen instead of waiting for them. Through making them fight, given that you're lich is at a lower level can of course level up and make them stronger.


  1. Arch liches (initial suggestion accredited to add name here) To be edited further


This is probably one of the most interesting yet conflicting suggestions that I desire to come into the system. This addition to the system is to be able to create a much longer experience with your kuva lich. This system makes them stronger and adds more unique traits to them of course. 


I have been comparing this system to shadow of war as it is rightly an inspiration from it after all. One of the things DE promised when introducing the system is “ a long relationship” with kuva liches, however at the moment they practically only last for a few hours. In terms of this aspect its difficult for Warframe to deliver this properly as it differs much from shadow of war. One of the main reasons players were able to make a long lasting relationship with their nemesis is not often because of the difficulty (at least at first)  its mainly due to the number of activities that the player must go through in order to kill that specific nemesis. More so given that the player fails to kill the nemesis when encountered it only lengthens the process as the nemesis gets stronger. 


With this in mind, in warframe’s particular standpoint with the lich system it is definitely difficult. Even with the addition of “High thralls” as I had just suggested doesn't do much in the way of stalling as I limited to a max of 3 to match the number of requiem mods needed. 


This can be fixed with spawning more “High thralls” to a maximum of 6 perhaps. Adding to this would be the addition of new liches as we now have the Arch lich. These liches will also similarly have their own “high thralls”. However in my opinion it can only go so far.


Liches will be confined to governing one planet and cannot hunt the player outside of the planet (at least until it reaches a sufficient level of 3, that's fair right?). The “high thralls” that are spawned by the lich will be able to hunt the player down from the get go and are able to go to different sectors to do so. 


With the addition of Arch liches being able to spawn liches, and liches able to spawn “High thralls' ' added to this long system, I can only see one problem in my point of view. How many can be placed? This wouldn't be so much of a problem given that this was the only faction in Warframe, but no there are 4 main enemy factions as of yet. If i were to suggest that each system follow the same format up until this point, I cannot fathom how many liches from each faction there will be. Don't get me wrong it's an exciting idea and it gives the player the choice to let one faction grow over the other, however managing or creating such an idea with the possible high numbers from both the “High thralls” and liches, could possibly be impossible due to the amount of work needed. 


Though for the sake of the suggestion say it was possible. Let's go into spawn mechanics.




Spawning mechanics


Taking suggestions from (add name here) Arch-liches will spawn if the player lets the lich live  given the player has already found all the right requiem mods and combination to kill or conquer them. When I say live I mean do nothing during the countdown and let him go. Killing them also has the chance of spawning them similar to the “cheated death” mechanic in SOW.


 This has a higher chance of occurring if the lich is at a higher level, at level 5 it is practically guaranteed. On a lore stand point, letting the lich live after their defeat could be a sign of humiliation similar to shadow of war, the lich could get an even greater urge of revenge, or possibly punished by the worm queen for failing subjecting the lich to great amounts of torture, whatever outcome could come it will result in an arch lich. 


Now, if the lich does get to an arch lich level, and you guys are probably going to hate me for this, the lich gets an extra 5 levels to get him to a maximum of 10, ok maybe too much, 8 to 10 take your pick. This should effectively increase difficulty with more unique quirks. A little note is that there can only ever be one Arch lich per faction, so once one spawns no other Arch lich from the same faction will be able to.


Effect of an Arch lich on all liches and High thralls


Simultaneously, you guys are going to hate me even more, all living liches and “high thralls” under those liches also get a maximum level boost of 2 more levels. So the high thralls have a max of 5 while the liches now have a max of 7. Once the Arch lich is dealt with it will return all the liches and high thralls into their normal state.


Now lich power ups are not the only thing that an Arch lich is capable of doing. Effectively once an Arch lich is born it could have more liches than the previously stated number. 


As said earlier this would be the big problem in all of this. To expound further, we have 15 sectors which can be controlled by liches. The mechanic I want to see is where you can let one faction grow and practically decimate all others to see what it looks like just fighting through all of them, and it makes the player take on a silent yet powerful role in the shadows aiding one faction or the other as said previously. In an extreme situation say you let the grineer take over 8 planets therefore 8 liches, as said this is very extreme.(leave suggestions) 


Arch lich leveling

The Arch lich similarly also has its own exp bar, however the difference is that its exp bar will derive exp from all the activities liches and their high thralls do. Adding more reasons to do those event missions as if you didn't have any more reasons to do them at this point from all my suggestions. Killing liches and high thralls will also allow the Arch lich to gain exp.


These guys will obviously get specially locked quirks that can only be attained once they have reached Arch lich status. (Leave suggestions)



Conquering an Arch lich, in my opinion should not be possible as I would say since the lich is too powerful to be controlled by the tenno. Unless the players would suggest a special item capable of doing so.


Drops and rewards

Alright I cannot think of anything particularly special to drop from these guys. I don't want the reward to be some absurdly high damage increase on a kuva weapon like I already suggested as one reward from liches. Honestly I have no clue at this point what players would want from a boss such as this, I’ll leave it to the comments to discuss this. (Leave suggestions)


Killing the Arch lich


Now this is probably where a lot of thinking needs to be done. And I don't believe in my opinion that my suggestion is the best thing players would want as the method of killing this long term nemesis. The method I thought of killing the Arch lich is a siege mission similar to shadow of war. 


The Arch lich would have its own flag ship and if the player wishes to kill the Arch lich. Similar to liches the Arch lich requires a certain combination of requiem mods as well, maybe not the regular, but upgraded versions of our requiem mods, stronger and much more potent. 


I’d suggest the way one would attain this is via fusing 4 random or the same requiem mod to make this one upgraded version of the requiem mod. So no need to add an extra system to get a different set of mods. These mods also have more charges to kill liches and high thralls with should the player desire to use it.


How to progress through the Arch lich flagship


Now going back to the mission itself. The missions difficulty will not only be determined by the levels of enemies, but the number of kuva liches and high thralls. The number of classes determined on this mission will be judged by how many the player does not kill/conquer prior to the mission. In terms of how many would be a good number I’d rather leave it to others to decide as this number could be subjective. In order to progress through the Flagship certain points need to be defended before destroying them to get to the lich. Now I know players who played shadow of war have a real dejavu at the moment as this is a direct rip off of the siege fights in the game. I know believe me, it felt difficult for me to write this portion since it was copy paste. Maybe it does not need to be a mobile defense. It could be an entirely different objective, such as carrying key items to the objective, stopping something from going off at the objective, etc etc. 


There are many ways to play with this mechanic of mission progression, which in my opinion I am no longer competent in suggesting. (Leave suggestions)


As such once a player clears an area, it releases one of the liches along with their high thrall minions. One does not need to kill/conquer all the liches and high thralls them in the mission however, I would recommend it as they could pose a nuisance later on once a lot of them have been released on the battlefield. 


Killing liches and high thralls in this mission


Now I know what you're thinking, How the hell are we supposed to get through the horde of high thralls and liches in this mission if we are only allowed to carry 3 requiem mods at a time. Well you are encouraged to be in a full squad when you do this and not alone. Ok yeah still doesn't solve the problem, alright I hear you. And obviously as I already referenced Shadow of War, you need to spawn your liches to help you on this entire mission. As in all of you, you and your entire squad are encouraged to release your liches and high thralls. I know AI is going to be a real pain to program at this point, but wouldn't all that chaos be entertaining to watch? I would think that liches and high thralls would be able to kill each other even if they did not have requiem mods. 


(NOTE: To anyone that desires some logic then one suggestion would be to add a mechanic to be able to polarize liches and high thralls under a requiem mod or mods depending if players would want to do that to strategize. If this is what people want I DONT WANT TO SEE A NEW FORMA NEEDED TO POLARIZE LICHES AND HIGH THRALLS!!!! Just literally give them the mod! I highly dislike this system of needing to polarize a lich to kill another lich. Just let it be so they can kill each other without the requiem mods!) 


In terms of killing liches for the player, I would have to recommend that the player who is the host that will be their mission knows all they need to know in regards to which requiem mods they need in order to kill their respective liches as to guide their teammates.


However I dont think it's fair enough. So in this mission a mechanic that can be done is that the players don't need to find the right combination anymore to kill liches. They just need to have the mod in their parazon. As long as the players have the mod it can get rid of the one health bar the lich has that is locked behind that requiem mod. So a player can kill the lich if they have all three requiem mods in their parazon, or if the player does not can call their squad mates who have it equipped on their parazon. This will not have to be repeated again and again as is when the player is fighting a lich alone and requires to strike the lich twice and thrice to get their second and third health bars with all of their combination of requiem mods.


The host player will need to be carrying the right combination for the Arch lich so it is up to the 3 other players to have the other requiem mods needed.


Each kill takes one charge so it would be a good idea to have people with upgraded requiem mods even if they are not the ones who are to kill the Arch lich.


As far as the mission goes that's it, I can't really describe much since I am really iffy about this  portion and I believe that people can suggest way better things that I can in regards to this fight.


Arch liches hunting players


This can be considered a very, very, very rare occurrence as they are essentially a kingpin of their own. I would also say that during the times the Arch lich does hunt down the player, the player cannot kill the Arch lich only ward it off. (Similar to the stalker) Though, how about we put more importance to these occasional events, we can say that this is a damage phase which can have impacts on the Arch lich flagship mission as we weaken the Arch lich. This makes it easier to take him down in the mission’s final fight. However I would also say that if the player does not strike quickly he would eventually recover. 


The trigger for occasional Arch lich hunting is the result of liches dying or his own aggro meter reaching a high level. Killing high thralls will not contribute to his aggro meter.


Arch lich turf wars


Hmm, I would think this would be interesting, however yet again I have no idea what the rewards would be or the consequences. Similar to Arch liches hunting the player, these might probably happen once in a blue moon, Arch liches are the top kingpins of their factions after all. So it's probably understandable to think lore wise that they wouldn't really go out too much in the open and show themselves. However I think the biggest take away that Arch lich turf wars have is a chance to strike two Arch liches at once and as well as sustain much more damage to the Arch lich than were the Arch lich hunting the player. Other than that I really cannot think of any rewards or consequences for this higher level turf war. (Leave suggestions) 


Adding raids to arch liches?


I know that a good portion of the community would jump into the idea of a big bad enemy and suggest raids. As much as anyone wants raids to happen, I don't personally believe that there should be raids for Arch liches and their respective counterparts in other factions. It's because raids should be reserved for the more influential characters of the story such as the Worm queen, Vaykor hek, Nef Anyo, Natah, Erra, Hunhow, Stalker those guys. To anyone saying that what I suggested is similar to raid design, it is not and is very much far from an actual raid design. What I suggested was an almost total copy of sieges in shadow of war, which I must say is basically systematic slaughter.  I want to suggest puzzles/encounters for the flag ship which will replace the sort of mini objectives that need to be done to lure out the liches and their high thralls; however when I think about it I don't think they are all that much to think about or important to make an entire encounter to lure out one lich out. 


Summary of how to progress through this proposed nemesis system


Step 1: Get your lich

  • Kill any larvaling


Step 2: Murmur farm

  • Via special event missions to stop leveling up the lich and their minions and collect more murmurs

  • Leveling up parazon via new currency in relics for more bonuses and less future farm

  • Get him angry enough to spawn High thralls and quickly get the exact requiem mod needed or for more murmurs when killed,


Intermission: Watch interactions and become a mercenary

  • Assist in turf wars/invasions between High thralls and liches to reap the rewards but be ready for the consequences

  • Control the system from the shadows, essentially control which faction will prosper and who doesn't

  • Level up liches for more quirks, better challenges, rid yourself of problems including thralls and liches alike (by helping one lich/high thrall/faction over the other)


Step 3: Kill your lich

  • Kill your lich with all your collected resources


Intermission: Arch lich summon

  • Should you choose to not conquer or kill you're lich, you have a chance for an even greater nemesis

  • There are consequences for your mercy




So alright I have no idea what to say as for the finale of this very very long document. I initially wrote this for fun since me and my friends often like discussing and roasting warframe for its usual inadequacies. Afterwards I don't know what came over me. I just began writing and writing to see how far I can go with this. It was really fun by the way I really enjoyed just writing whatever came to my brain case and the stress present in order to fit every new idea as apart of this proposed system. 


Is it a polished system? No. By no means is it as polished as this proposed system can get. However I did want to get my suggestions out there to fix current annoyances we have with the current nemesis system and add in my own personal touch as to what can be done. 


What I really wanted to achieve by suggesting a nemesis system like this in Warframe are the following:


  • Less mindless grind (less murmur farming and more options for murmur farming as well as shortcuts)

  • Creativity, something that DE can flex and slowly develop. (In terms of this portion I wanted to try my best and suggest the best possible lore to give more depth to this system, but I used my brain cells for the mechanics than the lore at the moment.)

  • Something to get us out of the loop of normal everyday missions (so many options which I might say is a bit overwhelming now that I look back on this document)

  • A higher challenge (Quirk system added for liches which I really hope ups the challenge)

  • Something that allows us to keep liches for longer allowing for a more long term relationship (more processes, but the liches and high thralls in all their unique personalities and battle styles should honestly be the thing that keeps it interesting)

  • Unique experience of the nemesis system in warframe standards. (This has mainly to do with the potential of new faction interactions all across the system. Which also allows for older systems i.e. Invasions to be revised into something new, or at least an addition for the veterans)

  • A guide for DE to follow (From what I saw on Devstream 136, it doesn't seem they know where to go with this at the moment, so I hope this would be a big help in giving them some inspiration as to where the system can take the game.)


I have to admit I really had a sour taste in my mouth every time I had to type shadow of war in, because I felt that I was not really doing this system much justice as I am merely using reference from an already established game. I wish i was able to think up of more unique system perhaps I don't know I might just be undergrading myself again and from my perspective as detailed as this is, this as it is is just a rough sketch of suggestions and mechanics which I tried my best to tie in together to make a guide of a complete system. There are many areas which I really have no idea or the competence to think of anymore, and this is mainly in the areas of which rewards and consequences since I personally am not sure what the community would want or dislike; so to anyone reading I would like to ask that you just spam the comments with the things you would like to earn from this system (especially the parts in bold Leave suggestions)  as well as fill in the little holes which I'm sure there are and lastly give your thoughts on this system and feel free to criticize it, I don't mind. I want to ask as my last request for this post, is that if you like any ideas that were suggested into this system, even just one and would really like to see it in game in a future update I would highly request that you spread this post and the discussion thread as much attention as possible so that DE can see it.


Also upon posting this I would highly encourage DE should they like any of the ideas or have any new ideas for the nemesis system in future updates, to not pursue them at the moment. I agree with many others that 2020 is the year for fixing past systems in warframe. Once they get most of that done, then would I finally like to see what new stuff can be added to the game.

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You can "delete" a lich mid way . Go to earth Iron awake on paladino.

Also 1.30 hours for a special weapon is very easy and it takes little time. The rng is also not bad. I dont really think they should change something apart from the bugs of course.
There are games were you have to farm for weeks / months or even a year to get 1 single item to the right lvl with the right stats.

and if they reduce the time of kill liches or murmur the prices of the weapons will be lowered just as everything else. Nowdays when i new warframes comes out you need 250 plat for it the old days (like 2 - 3 years ago) you need 1500+ for a new prime frame that came out. Same with lich now you need a few hundreds of platinum to buy something. thats my point if you reduce the time of the farm then the trade system will fail again. Thankfully rivens are still in touch.

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