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@DE how to improve the new status effects (the ones that suck)


Buzlok
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Hello nerds and hopefully DE (or both?). With the Warframe revised update the damage system along with status system have been re-balanced heavily. The main goal of the status changes were to make status effects more equal with more types and combinations being usable in the meta and late game. Basically all status's should now have their own spotlights, but some of them are just lacking. Here's my take on why and how to even out the playing field some more.

 

Impact damage has to much of an impact that reduces your impact: At 5 stacks of impact an enemy gets knocked over. Knockdowns suck as a form of single target CC since they ruin your headshot accuracy. This can be countered by changing the type of CC it does when stacked. Change it so that instead of a knockdown, enemies enter a suspended stagger effect with an animation that lasts a few seconds. This would make accuracy unimpaired if not even easier with impact weapons. (impact not ruining accuracy? that's a new one)

 

Gas does less damage than a bad gas pun: You heard me. 

 

Put the BLAST back in blast damage: Blast no longer does a 5m radial knockdown which is honestly less annoying because it made hitting headshots terrible for everyone in the squad. The new accuracy debuff is honestly not AS bad as people think, but it's still bad. The chance of getting hit by a shot goes down exponentially when you are moving due to projectile speed which results in a higher chance to not get hit than on paper, assuming the player is moving around a lot... in Warframe).

The main problem with the new blast is that unlike the other status types, blast doesn't have any particular advantages to taking it over the other damage debuffs like puncture or even cold which it's made from. Puncture reduces enemy damage directly and is a physical type found already on most weapons by default. Cold is an elemental type that normally requires modding to have, but reduces enemy attack/fire speed and even movement speed which makes it harder for enemies to even reach their target. Blast on the other hand only effects the hit success rate of ranged attacks; That's all. It doesn't even have any affect on melee units (blast not affecting melee units is actually fine IF it had a reason that made it better than the other debuff effects against ranged units).

The solution is really simple. Make the new blast effect also have a 3-5m AoE like the old one did. This would result in the blast status being like a flashbang grenade effect. Enemies in an area would loose accuracy because they were all disoriented. This way it would have a major advantage over the other debuff effects because it's AoE, but still doesn't work on melee enemies so it won't become unarguably superior to puncture and cold in all situations.

 

Radiation; Confusion... Mayhem... Death...(for real this time): The only change that was made to radiation was that radiated enemies do extra damage to their allies (base damage plus 100-550% with 1-10 stacks) which is good, but is still not much since enemy effective health is WAY higher than their damage output. Why even bother having them do slightly more of almost nothing to each other when you could just choose an element that also offers CC, but with more damage, just like radiations component elements heat and electric...

My solution is simple, unimpressive, and fixes this problem completely. Make the radiation also increase the damage they take from their allies. This is actually a massive damage increase. Since the damage multiplier from radiation stacks would apply twice if both the enemies attacking each other are radiated. Multiple enemies with 1 stack of radiation would do 200% damage to each other and take 200% from each other resulting in 400% damage which moderate. Now imagine if, let's say with an Aoe/chaining/punchthrough or even just wildly spraying weapon you managed to apply the maximum of 10 stacks to each enemy; This would result in them doing 650% damage and taking 650% damage from one another. THAT'S 4225% TOTAL DAMAGE! Radiation damage would become an absolutely chaotic effect. The more enemies that are effected by it and the more stacks they have the more exponentially powerful it can become!

 

A side note about viral damage: Viral feels way to strong compared to EVERY other damage element. Buff all the others? Nerf viral? Not mine to say, but it doesn't really fit the theme of an update that adds diversity to player loadouts and build options.

 

So that's all I have to say about changing the new status effects. I think the ones I didn't mention all have their own uses and circumstances where they work out just fine. Do you agree with any of my balance change ideas? Do you think these elements are fine as is? Should some just get reverted back to how they were before? Any thoughts or feedback? Memes?

 

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11 minutes ago, Buzlok said:

Put the BLAST back in blast damage: Blast no longer does a 5m radial knockdown which is honestly less annoying because it made hitting headshots terrible for everyone in the squad. The new accuracy debuff is honestly not AS bad as people think, but it's still bad. The chance of getting hit by a shot goes down exponentially when you are moving due to projectile speed which results in a higher chance to not get hit than on paper, assuming the player is moving around a lot... in Warframe).

Since DE nerfed reactions (again), I am simply going to higlight the parts I am not ok with here. Should be easy enough to interpret why (old blast was perfectly fine).

:thumbdown::thumbdown:

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Make blast deals also deals some AOE damage on proc. Because why does a BLAST doesn’t deal some damage while gas and electric does? 

Impact should just be a stun instead of a knockdown.

Irradiated enemies should have a higher threat level so enemies can prioritize shooting each other instead at the player.

 

 

 

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To nerf the viral :

actual : 100% damage increase + 25% per stack, up to 325%

nerf    : 74%  damage increase + 14% per stack, up to 200%

then, upgrade the others status to make that at least in some situation, they are as good as viral. Actualy, it is still not intersting in most of the case to play a weapon with status and not a weapon critique.

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For the blast, i proposed somthing similar but simpler :

Make that the attack that proc Blast deal 20% of its total damage to all other target in 6 meter radius, and also apply the accuracy reduction to them.

With this, the blast status become usefull when you want some AOE damage. it would be possible to play a sniper with status chance + blast.

(an AOE dps of [one-targetDPS * 0.2 * status chance], i don't think is will be too strong.

And with a weapon with good AOE like Ignis, the increase of damage would be better than the viral only on big pack of ennemis)

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I posted this in the >100 status chance/shotgun megathread, since a thread about the status changes wasn't made... (I've updated it with some more reasoning)

On 2020-03-02 at 12:00 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Type

Stacking Behaviour when a duplicate Status Effect Occurs: 

Slash

Each Slash Status has its own duration, but now we only show a maximum of 10 damage numbers in the HUD, damage is unaffected, but reducing how many damage events we show helps with performance

Impact

Repeat single-target Impact Status Effects will escalate the efficacy of the Impact Status (removed previous change of adding Ragdoll as maximum Stagger consequence).

Puncture

The first Puncture Status Effect has an enemy deal 30% less Damage. Subsequent Puncture Status add +5% weakening, leading to up to 75% (capped). Each Puncture Status has a duration of 6 Seconds.

Cold

The first Cold Status Effect deals 25% slow. Subsequent Cold Status Effects deal +5% slow for a total of 70% slow at 10 procs. Each Cold Status has a duration of 6 seconds.

Heat

No Change.

Toxin

See Slash, plus the base duration of a Toxin Status Effect now matches Slash for 6 seconds.

Electric

AoE Electric Damage that is part of the Status Effect can now reoccur while the target is still under the stun animation of another Electric Status Effect.

Blast

Grants the Blast Status Effect a single target. Blast Status reduces enemy accuracy by 30% base. Subsequent Blast Status Effects add +5% inaccuracy for  for 75% total at 10 stacks. Each Blast Status has a 6 second Duration.

Corrosive

The first Corrosive Status Effect strips 26% Armor. Subsequent Corrosive Status Effects strip 6% more Armor, leading up to 80% Armor removal.

Each Corrosive Status Effect lasts 8 seconds.
Note: Corrosive was the only Status with infinite Duration and 100% Efficacy toward a defensive stat. This was necessary to some based on how Armor Scaled. We feel our rebalancing efforts need a differently behaving Corrosive Proc to balance out all Status overall. 

Radiation

The first Radiation Status Effect has an enemy deal 100% Damage to allies. Subsequent Radiation Status adds +50% damage, leading to up to 550% (capped). Each Radiation Status Effect has a duration of 12 seconds.

Magnetic

New Status Effect entirely: enhanced Damage! First Magnetic Status Effect deals 100% additional Shield damage, subsequent Magnetic Status add +25% for a total of 325% (capped). Enemies under a Magnetic Status Effect cannot regenerate Shields. Magnetic Status Duration is now 6 seconds.

Viral

New Status Effect entirely: enhanced Damage! First Viral Status Effect deals 100% additional Health damage, subsequent Viral Status add +25% for a total of 325% (capped).
Note: Before Viral would halve a target’s health pool and simply refresh the duration. Now it deals 2x Damage to Health, and can scale up to 4.5x Damage on repeat Status Effects. 

Gas

The base duration of a Gas Status Effect now matches Slash for 6 seconds. No longer does AoE with forced Poison Status Effect (resulting in Poison DoT for enemies in radius), instead it does AoE DoT Gas damage around the target.

 


Why: Critical has long been king - and while we are leaving Critical as is, our goal is to bring Status into the Arsenals in a new light for all Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapons.Our long-term goal with this change is to build upon this series of changes to eventually allow Status to impact bigger threats like Liches and Eidolons.

 

 

 

Slash: Fine. It eats away at enemy health types, including shields.

Impact: Um... why not give Impact the lowering of accuracy from concussions (Think boxing) Keep knockdowns/Ragdoll to Blast.  And let it interact with Cold Status, inflicting more damage to enemies with any level of cold status - and it would shatter a frozen enemy. Enough Impacts from melee weapons could open an enemy to a finisher (KO).

Puncture: Lowering enemy damage never made much sense to me. I'd make it deal damage that bypasses defenses. Additional layers become Perforate, allowing other damage types to also bypass defenses at the same rate. (Defenses being Armor, Shields, treated the same by this status type) It could also be given a bonus against enemy walls (nullifier bubbles, ice eximus bubble walls, grineer and corpus portable cover things and enemy shield/gunner units' portable shields, as well as Bursa frontal armor.) I'd also add that Puncture combined with Toxin or Viral should make those statuses more likely to be inflicted.

Now, you have the 3 base statuses that are on most weapons providing non-interferring statuses that nobody has to worry about negating with -stat rivens and the like.
Continuing on:

~~~~~

Cold: Allow stacking of this status lead to Freeze... that's obvious to me... (I'd also allow attacks that inflict enough cold damage in a single strike to immediately freeze a target.) Hitting a frozen target with impact could shatter them in an AoE shrapnel attack.

Heat: Fine (fire should spread on contact with other enemies)

Toxin: Would make sense to be a Damage over Time, plus the weakening effect of Puncture with further layers as the target becomes more sick. Perhaps reduce healing received while infected? (Toxin should spread to nearby enemies on the target's death, like the poison gas could left by Noxes.)

Electric: Stun that spreads to nearby enemies sounds ok for crowd control. I'd like to see it have a special interaction with robotics, being more effective.

Now, you have basic elements that do what you'd expect them to do. Nothing super fancy. I would want these status effects on my weapons. That's what makes the combination elements more problematic.

My thought process: Ideally, the combination status effects would be equal-to-or-better-than their forming element effects, otherwise, they become downgrades... hoping to make up the difference in their bonuses against different armor/flesh types? They'd also need to retain some "logic" to why they'd have the effects they have, and a strong gameplay need for the effect to exist at all.

There is design-room here to create mods to prevent elemental combinations from happening automatically, or only allow certain combos (while empowering the statuses - chance or potency -, or their associated damage types as a trade-off for either damage or status)

~~~~~

Blast: This is where you can have knockdowns/ragdolls. People can mod to avoid it or focus on it. Maybe disable a blasted enemy from running their normal AI routines that send them running to set off alarms and take cover... all confused with their senses overloaded by the blast.

(Heat + Cold: Ragdolls may be worth giving up the CC slow of cold and panic of heat, along with heat's DoT...)

Corrosive: Seems nerfed into the ground simply to change the meta. The duration is way too short... because the enemies you'll be using this against will be tougher, and need to have their armor stripped. I'll need to play with it, but just going by the other existing status effects, this one seems lacking. Plus, the cap... I mean, maybe keep the cap for bosses and special units, but allow it to go down to 1% for normal enemies. (being able to keep an enemy's armor in tact - even at 1% - allows the corrosive bonus damage to be retained against certain enemy armor/flesh types.)

While Warframes are living suits of biometal and stuff that can regrow from receiving corrosive damage... enemy armor doesn't have that logical reason to magically restore itself. The Infinite duration of old corrosive made sense.

(Toxin and Electricity. You're giving up a DoT and crowd control to strip their armor and kill faster... that's a good trade-off.)

Radiation: Um... you do know how weak enemies are when they're attacking each other, right? (Others have already mentioned the 6000% increase in reflected damage offered by the Amalgam mod... being laughable... and this status is only 550%, with multiple stacks to achieve?) I like the disabling of enemy auras, like Ancients and Eximus units have. Radiation should have a strong Damage over time element to it... dealing damage to enemies around them. Grineer are weak to this damage type, being clones with already heavily damage cell structures.

(Heat + Electricity: Two very strong CC effects (panic + shock/stun) and a DoT and in return, you get a CC that causes enemies to attack each other with bb-guns and a byproduct, possibly not by design, that turns off enemy auras because their allies are now seen as enemies. That's why I suggested the addition of the strong radioactive damage aura from the enemy who is irradiated.)

Magnetic: People are going to be doing all they can to bypass enemy shields, because they can, thus Magnetic is still going to be something you don't mod for. Disabling enemy shield regeneration may be useful in some boss battles... if you follow through on making status effects actually work on them (like they should...). Maybe weaken magnetized enemies to heavy attacks, pulling weapons toward them with increased velocity. This needs to be very strong against enemy robotics. This needs to jam Corpus weaponry. This needs to be the Tenno equivalent of the nullifier effect. They can nullify us, so we nullify them.

(Cold + Electricity: Again, Two strong CC effects are given up. What they produce in return is a faction-specific tactical effect to take down enemy shields... and all their technology - in my suggestion. The current Magnetic is not quite worthwhile.)

Viral: Viral still sounds very good. Probably one of the best of the status effects.

(Toxin + Cold: Giving up a DoT and CC for extra damage. Everyone likes extra damage.)

Gas: So... this decouples Gas damage from Toxin, essentially. Because the effect is the same, a DoT, just based off gas damage. Supposedly, it should do health damage directly, bypassing shields - something is wrong with how little damage it is doing, as is widely reported and is being looked into as of the time of my posting this. I like the AoE zone control offered by gas clouds that can eat away at enemies passing through them. It would be interesting if gasses could take on the properties of other statuses on a weapon that creates the gas AoE... so you could potentially have radiation clouds, toxic clouds, viral clouds, corrosive clouds, etc (defaulting to a combination of toxin hp loss and heat panic.) - some of these types of clouds would be hard to create without innate statuses on the weapons that are not created through mod combinations.

I imagine it would be interesting to allow Blast damage to ignite a Gas cloud for an even bigger fiery explosion with 100% heat/burn status chance, at instant max effect, on enemies caught in it, at the cost of the AoE going away.

(Toxin + Heat: Giving up two DoTs and panic... for a stationary area of effect that inflicts a DoT briefly, as enemies pass through. If it did substantial health damage that bypassed shields, there would be little to say about it... but I think the potential is here to make a really interesting tactical status effect.)

~~~~~~~~~
 

Overall, not much has changed with the intent behind the elements.

Corrosive + Radiation are the Grineer elements (and you can't make both without certain weapons - or perhaps a new mod that allows one status to be used in combination with two others, for 2 separate resulting combo elements, in this case, electric being used in both Corrosive and Radiation), and Magnetic + Gas are the corpus elements (which you surprisingly can make without special considerations, except, currently, why would you?)
Viral is essentially just a damage booster against fleshy enemies, and when used with heat, and you have an infested buster.

(of course, then we have all sorts of flesh and armor types to consider, which kinda work counter-intuitively, if I recall correctly...)

 

~~~~~

Warframes could be given more passives that interact with status effects, like:

  • Banshee's punctures could lead to creating weakspots.
  • Frost's cold attacks could lead to faster freezes - less stacks required.
  • Atlas's impacts could lead to faster KO openers.
  • Volt's electric status chaining could have much larger range.
  • Mag's Magnetic procs could create temporary bullet attractor effect on targets, preventing subsequent misses.
  • Garuda's slashes could simultaneously eat away at enemy shields AND health.

~~~~~

I like the overall goal to make these status effects that could also be inflicted on bosses without having to resort to making them immune to everything.

I give the concepts a thumbs-up, with minor exceptions as listed above. (I do think someone dug up some past design documents about changing damage from the past, and forgot all the forum feedback that was received... repeating a least a couple face-palm-inducing decisions (ragdoll, puncture).

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il y a 28 minutes, (PS4)AyinDygra a dit :

I posted this in the >100 status chance/shotgun megathread, since a thread about the status changes wasn't made... (I've updated it with some more reasoning)

it doesn't include the new formula. they are on the wiki. (they are less good)

 

"Viral is essentially just a damage booster against fleshy enemies, and when used with heat, and you have an infested buster. "

It work on any type of health (including yellow health, when they have armor). Only the shield are not affected.

So it is also good on greener.

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