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Saryn Nerf Proposal


Traumtulpe
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17 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Ever since her latest rework, I noticed a lot of people playing Warframes like Frost or Inaros complaining about Saryns damage output. Specifically "Spores" and "Miasma" are the abilities that draw jealousy.

It should be quite obvious to anyone, that simply tweaking the numbers will not satisfy these people (unless the numbers are literally to small to kill level 5 Corpus), seeing as the recent Miasma nerf went unnoticed by them, and did nothing to dissuade further complaints.

The only logical solution is then, to remove any damage from these abilities and replace it with utility. Thankfully there are several kinds of utility entirely absent from Saryns kit, making this undertaking quite easy. Two of my favorites:

  • Damage reduction. Many Warframes can achieve 90% damage reduction, and possibly even confer this benefit to other Warframes and objectives. Of course Saryn is entirely incapable of anything comparable. A golden opportunity to replace damage - Miasma: Afflicts foes in a 20 m radius with the Viral status effect, while allies receive 70% damage reduction for 30 seconds.
  • Slowing enemies, bonus resources. Quite valuable support, provided by a number of Warframes. Candidate for replacing Spores functionality. Spores: Plant fast growing spores on enemies, slowing them by 30%. After 3 seconds the spores bloom into an additional loot drop, and spread to targets within 16 m.

Of course there are many more possibilities. From healing allies, to dropping energy orbs, restoring shields, crowd control, providing status immunity, increases to attack/reload speed, blocking attacks and countless other examples of utility, brought to the table by other Warframes.

Original kit was designed as damage frame, That was the developer intent. And you suggest she don't deal damage

What's next? Mag? Oberon? Equinox? Hildryn? Mesa? Baruuk? Ember? Gauss? Rhino (his stomp can nuke the map too)? I can name many others with the similar damage capabilities. The community may not use them for their nukes as much, but if Saryn gets deleted from viability in terms of damage, the community will identify and use the next strongest AOE nuker. Including your cited Frost, who can kill a wide AOE with Avalanche. Nerf anything that can deal damage in a radius greater than 5m? (and lets be real, I have seen such complaints before)

Overall, no thanks.  Different frames have different uses. Not all of them have to be so similar to each other. The game is called "Warframe" I expect warframes themselves to be potent and powerful killing machines and I should have the option to complete a mission entirely with abilities if I so desire. This is not call of duty in space, gunplay should not be mandatory. Neither is this dynasty warriors or dark souls in space, thus melee shouldn't be a must either. Though I do use melee a lot. Lastly, the overall game would feel more boring if every frame played the same, and that is what your suggestion is giving me - you seem to be making Saryn become more like a poison ivy reskin of Rhino + Nova + Nekros 

Edited by Xepthrichros
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1 hour ago, Vharu said:

Then after we nerf Mirage

I believe Mirage has already been nerfed:

On 2020-03-07 at 9:45 AM, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

My problem isn't with the explosives. It's with the falloff on certain abilities, specifically Explosive Legerdemain.

Explosive Legerdemain turns pickups into mines that explode at range once an enemy strolls within a certain range.

The problem? The falloff.

With the relatively smaller range of the ability, with the exception of the enemy who got within exploding distance, the 90% falloff is extremely noticeable, and renders the previous ability of the ability to lock down a point with enough pickups moot as anyone further than about 5 meters from the pickup will take little damage.

While most abilities don't have this falloff, Legerdemain is treated as an explosive and got the update, and it has removed her previous role as a contender for Elite Sanctuary Onslaught squads. Her best tools are now hall of mirrors and eclipse, basically a worse Rhino.

Please do fix this.

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Oh, saryn is now the new "pre-rework ember"? 

Saryn is derived from the sarin gas. It's purpose is to kill as fast and spread as far as possible. Her current kit fits that role/theme nicely. I don't see why she needs to be nerfed. She fits as a glass cannon to me. Low health pool, can't scale as high as other frames. Somewhat poor energy economy if you choose more dps. 

OP, your fav proposed changes makes Saryn looks like oberon, no?

A pure dps frame don't need to be able to cc. Killing is her cc method.

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10 minutes ago, Vharu said:

whats your point?

Just that the build you were linking seems to be dead. And, I guess, that I don't expect Saryn to stay the way she is now indefinitely.

At least Spores don't have 90% damage falloff with range... yet.

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4 minutes ago, Vharu said:

i usually kick all Saryns ass in games. My Saryn 19/20 times will beat other saryns

You do understand how multiple Saryns interact, right? Spores block each other, so by fighting for damage with another Saryn you become less efficient overall. The other Saryns might just be smarter and let you spread your Spores.

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1 minute ago, Vharu said:

Done with you, done with bumping this pathetic thread. 

What a pity, I miss you already!

Now I shall never learn the hidden art of being in the top 5% of Saryns worldwide. Truly the only thing to rival your "build/playstyle" is your mastery of the keyboard!

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20 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:
  •  Miasma: Afflicts foes in a 20 m radius with the Viral status effect, while allies receive 70% damage reduction for 30 seconds.
  • Spores: Plant fast growing spores on enemies, slowing them by 30%. After 3 seconds the spores bloom into an additional loot drop, and spread to targets within 16 m.

 

The problem here is shes a map clear. If you give map clearing abilities to any frame you defeat the purpose of even playing a mission aka Old Ember. If not DE would have kept the Old Ember that killed everything level 30 and under in 50 meters. If this was intended, DE needs to make all frame map clearer's. And take out Tanks and CC frames. If all frames were map clearer's then enemies can die before ever reach defense targets.

The only changes to her kit needed it reduce range to a quarter of what it is now aka new Ember rework. Not only Saryn, Volt and Equinox also. Spores should just only trigger from first enemy hit. Other than that the kit can be left alone.

Your idea is to keep the range high. This is the real issue with the map clearing abilities. Max should not do entire rooms, should be the same size as Embers rework range.

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I've never seen Saryn outside of ESO. If you're hunting eidolons, you don't use Saryn. You use frames that can increase weapon damage. If you're doing arbitrations, you don't use Saryn. You use frames that don't die in 1 hit. If you're doing index, you don't use Saryn. You use hard cc frames. Do people use Saryn to hunt Liches or farm murmurs? I dunno. I certainly wouldn't use Saryn if I'm ranking up formad weapons. I need the affinity to go to my weapons, not Saryn.

Try using Saryn on Rail Jack or Rail Jack scaled enemies. Watch as she dies in 1 hit. She's only tanky when she can hide behind 3 other warframes. The only reason she survives in ESO is because enemy AI aggro is dumbed down. Otherwise the enemy would be coming to you instead of the other way around which would make that game mode a camp fest.

There's nothing wrong with nuke frames. They have a place. Right now, a real nuke frame is a warframe that can increase weapon damage while using Kuva Brama. Knowing DE, expect even more powerful weapons to come in the future while Saryn gets left behind.

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37 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

reduce range to a quarter of what it is now aka new Ember rework. Not only Saryn, Volt and Equinox also. Spores should just only trigger from first enemy hit. Other than that the kit can be left alone.

Your idea is to keep the range high. This is the real issue with the map clearing abilities. Max should not do entire rooms, should be the same size as Embers rework range.

You seem to have overlooked that my proposals deal no damage. If you reduced the range to 25%, there would be no point in using the abilities at all.

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3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

It helps if you put mods on her.

There are mods on her. DE up scaled rail jack enemies to balance them out because you won't be dealing with large numbers of them. Saryns die to two simultaneous ram sled boarding parties. In the veil (which I assume will not stay as the hardest sector of rail jack) you won't have time to weaken enemies with spores in the rail jack before they kill you. Now imagine the boarding parties are sentients.

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I usually play Saryn with all Umbral mods and a flex spot for Narrow Minded / Quick Thinking / Adaptation. Surviving is not an issue if you are careful, this includes Railjack and Arbitrations.

Occasionally I play glass cannon without defensive mods, the trick is to keep the enemies distracted with Molt at all times. Of course you die if you mess up.

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I can imagine Saryn having trouble in Railjack, or very specifically inside the railjack, since the close quarters would make for awkward positioning in terms of where to drop your molt. And yet that just makes me giggle, because we're always talking about Spores or Miasma having too much range, but apparently endgame is a 20m cabin. X ] (Welp, better spin up an efficiency and strength build so you can just stun them with a Miasma that blankets the ship without building for range, and then Venom Dose + Toxic Lash + any melee them to death before they've started moving. Remember to tank your duration so that you can recast Miasma to stun them again if you need another two seconds for some reason.)

Also:

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Don't be so hard on yourself.

Thank you so much for this exchange. Like, I still don't like your proposal one bit, but this thread became pure joy for a minute there. Falling out of my damn chair.

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I agree saryn needs nerf, but she is a damage frame. I think for me something true to concept of Saryn would be to have her spores not kill enemies, but strip them of armor and leave them with like 10% hp. And definitelly have a LoS on her 4th.

So she should be about severelly crippling enemies, but still require the "finishing touch" to actually deliver a killing blow. And having LoS on a nuke will make her more in line with Warframes like Ember after rework who are powerfull, but not stupidly overpowered.

Big plus also for spores not killing enemies is that Saryn will be more of a team player since other frames will get a chance of killing the enemy and it is important for some frames that depend on actually getting kills for them to work.

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And Spores already penalizes you for letting enemies die to it by not spreading those spores, which will spread if they die from any other cause including Miasma. So the only real effect on optimal Saryn play would be the LoS requirement on Miasma, which would make it less oppressive without really making it significantly less powerful.

This proposal I like. I like it a lot.

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1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

You seem to have overlooked that my proposals deal no damage. If you reduced the range to 25%, there would be no point in using the abilities at all.

Damage is fine. We still use Embers new ability with 25% range reduction.

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6 hours ago, Vharu said:

Do you see any Saryn doing lvl 9,999 content? 

But I do see other frames doing so. 

There's no reason a Saryn couldnt do max level content with a group. Spores damage would ramp up like crazy, as long as there's someone there to keep her alive, she would do fine. She obviously can't solo, but thats not for lack of nuking power.

Also balancing around level 9,999 content is not a thing. Like not even a little bit.

Edited by Skaleek
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One of the biggest problems with Saryn's overbearing presence is that she literally thrives in squads more than in solo. We all know how temperamental solo spawns are, don't we? That's the difference between Saryn carrying spores through the entire mission without a single decay, and having it dip back down every few rooms.

Truth of the matter is, Saryn was and is more of a problem than Ember's WoF ever really was before she was gutted and reworked into something that barely works unless you go rolling around in energy pizzas - correct me if I'm wrong, but DE never actually made changes to the rework's self-defeating designs, did they?

Ember had target-per-second limitations. Her single damage type was worse, between shields' resistance and armour it fell off like a brick. The 'burn everything to the ground' frame functionally became a buff slave at higher levels, if at all.

Saryn scales up to anything, has solid damage types, and covers more range and targets. You don't need to be in Survival or ESO to tag one enemy, activate Toxic Lash and W+M1 through entire maps, spores spreading freely from everything you happen to hit.

 

Yes, ESO performance might not be the best metric for judging balance because it's an abortion of a 'game mode' in itself, but that doesn't mean Saryn's not busted. Hell, I bring her into my Sortie defenses when I'm short on time; even if the Spore counter does naturally reset per wave, all the procs, scaling damage and Miasma still soften up everything enough to make it easier than 90% of frames would.

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12 hours ago, Vharu said:

No she isn't.... Mirage Nuking clears both ESO and Defense missions faster. 

Most people that complain about Saryn, dont have one or play one. It takes awhile to get that spore damage ticker up and to a point where it does significant damage. And if there isn't a mob around it will decay back to zero very fast - this often happens outside of Survival and ESO. So forget spores as being some wonder skill - what makes it seem OP is Miasma doing 4x procs on those effected by spores. 

Now a Saryn can do the following...

Modding for big range is a must, but the compromises come from energy cost, or strength cost. A Saryn with high ability strength can clear a room fast (still not faster than Mirage though), but the energy cost prevents spamming abilities. Other players build for low strength but high efficiency - the result is they can spam abilities but they ain't killing things fast at all (still slower than a Mirage).

If you take away her strengths of dealing damage, then all you have left is a squishy frame that is left to resort to melee - yeh good job, just piss off a bunch of players that main Sayrn so Warframe loses even more players. And for what? - So you all can complain about Mirage nuking instead when that takes it place?? 

Okay bub... need to clear somethings up given all the assumptions you're throwing around.

1.) I've been playing nonstop for nearly 7 years; I'm MR 28; I've played Saryn since she was the 1-trick Miasma Nuker pony. She started off on a high bar, and has gotten steadily more powerful as time has gone on.

2.) You're trying to sell me on the idea that Saryn is some nuanced skill based Warframe that is perfectly balanced, when she is totally not. How to play Saryn in a nutshell: Press 1; press 4; do nothing but watch a gauge in the corner. Should number of infected enemies fall into single digits; press 4 again. Repeat.

3.) Mirage has never been able to compete with my Saryn build in ESO; never even gotten close. But if you think Mirage is so OP, we might as well propose her for the chopping block next.

4.) Building Saryn is not difficult. Range is priority above all else; Power Strength is inconsequential; Efficiency should be adjusted according to your Energy/Spore/Miasma management. If you have Arcane Energize, efficiency becomes a dump stat, and Flow becomes unnecessary.

You don't need power strength on a Warframe with uncapped scaling damage; you just need to build Saryn to abuse her uncapped scaling damage; hence the prioritized range. Keeping Spores constantly active is a must; once you get it going, all you have to do is press 4 to maintain it.

5.) Saryn isn't squishy, not statistically, not mechanically. Toxic Lash + Silva & Aegis Prime gives you a 90% forward DR; Adaptation, Regenerating Molt, Hunter Adrenaline, Primed Flow, & Quick Thinking combined gives you an absolute tank that can spam its abilities albeit with less impact than what a Max Range Saryn can achieve. Bonus tankiness if you run Grace + Guardian.

6.) DE doesn't lose players to Warframe nerfs. Incessant Trinity nerfs never impacted player count, nor did the Ember nerf, or the Ash nerf, and all 3 of the aforementioned Warframes had pretty sizable and devoted fanbases. Everyone moved on to new things, and found Warframes they liked playing just as much, if not more than, yesterday's meta. DE could neff Saryn into the dirt tomorrow, and 2 weeks later, everyone that counts would be over it. Sorry to burst your ego, but that's what a history of trends teaches. 

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