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Traumtulpe

Saryn Nerf Proposal

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20 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Edited, i was a bit premature.

No, you simply want a new frame.

Saryn is fine when compared to other nukers, she got advantages and disadvantages. Like all Frames

No, I don't want a new frame. I could totally live without a new frame. Grendel was a new low, and Gauss is just miserable to play. I do not want a new frame.

Disadvantage vs. Advantage is pretty vague and frail argument, which seems to deny the elephant in the room: When DE gets around to finally reworking Saryn, how is that argument going to secure your interests? Pablo already stated that she's over performing, and he's planning to rework her when production slows down a notch at DE. 
 

Just putting it out there, but the Saryn you know isn't here to stay. I'd rather contribute to the design process, instead of trying to deny it.

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I agree that these are interesting ideas. But what DE is gonna do is take all these ideas and implement them all into a new warframe. All the suggestion a lot of people gave for a Vauban rework went into that new Tracer frame.

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Am 10.3.2020 um 15:01 schrieb Traumtulpe:

The only logical solution is then, to remove any damage from these abilities and replace it with utility. Thankfully there are several kinds of utility entirely absent from Saryns kit, making this undertaking quite easy. Two of my favorites:

  • Damage reduction. Many Warframes can achieve 90% damage reduction, and possibly even confer this benefit to other Warframes and objectives. Of course Saryn is entirely incapable of anything comparable. A golden opportunity to replace damage - Miasma: Afflicts foes in a 20 m radius with the Viral status effect, while allies receive 70% damage reduction for 30 seconds.
  • Slowing enemies, bonus resources. Quite valuable support, provided by a number of Warframes. Candidate for replacing Spores functionality. Spores: Plant fast growing spores on enemies, slowing them by 30%. After 3 seconds the spores bloom into an additional loot drop, and spread to targets within 16 m.

wrong.

i dont even get why u take inaros as an example. why would you compare the tank which is near unkillable, to aoe nuke frame ? any opinion a inaros player has or had, is automatically invalidated by them picking inaros with bramma or ingis wraith and gram prime spin to win (secondary kuva nukor or catchmoon).

ur changes to saryn not only make it not a nuke frame at all anymore, its just another utility frame. which giving by ur numbers will be absolute broken also. --> 70% for 30sec (ability strength affected, range affected ? cap?) --> seems kinda better then trinity 4. Spores that slow for 30% base value ? so nova 4 ? in high range and after 3 sec loot every enemy gives 1 additonal loot and it spreads ? so not only does it lock down the map with high slow, over a huge area, it also gives additional loot. and loot would be additional to nekros? so it outclasses hydroid or khora by 10000000x times

The only logical solution is to nerf spores. It has too much range, 3 autoprocing spores (in combo with ingis) takes any skill from that it. 4 inflicitng double dmg if 1 is active.

why is everything together with her 1 ? and lets not forget she isnt even abysmall energy hungry. it takes effort to drop her spores and worst of all. Look at that range.

the reason why saryn is 10 tiers above everyone is because her 1 spreads and scales, her 4+1 have the 2 most usefull status effects and extreme high range.

so a way to nerf saryn is hit the status chance on 1+4, reduce intial range and more then anything the spread range on her 1. make it so that her 3 augment spreads the spores not the normal version (like banshe sonar augment and only on kills). more diffcult to adjust would be an attempt to adjust the spore scaleing/growth/decay.

i think the best way to nerf her would be a combination of all these, with only smaller number changes + her 3 change to augment, so that with the right "mastery" and build you can still achieve greatness but 0815 builds with ignis 3 spray will be quite weaker/ less efficient

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24 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

any opinion a inaros player has or had, is automatically invalidated by them picking inaros

So you main Inaros, right?

24 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

giving by ur numbers will be absolute broken also. --> 70% for 30sec (ability strength affected, range affected ? cap?) --> seems kinda better then trinity 4. Spores that slow for 30% base value ? so nova 4 ? in high range and after 3 sec loot every enemy gives 1 additonal loot and it spreads ? so not only does it lock down the map with high slow, over a huge area, it also gives additional loot. and loot would be additional to nekros? so it outclasses hydroid or khora by 10000000x times

You are objectively wrong. 70% DR for 30 sec at 75 energy + a Viral proc is worse than Splinter Storm (70% DR for 22 sec at 50 energy + INFINITELY SCALING DAMAGE)

Nova's Molecular Prime locks absolutely everything down AND doubles all damage AND nukes by chain reaction, the additional loot works exactly like Ivara's Prowl (except within an area, but slower).

In conclusion: You don't even know what some of the most popular frames do, yet you somehow feel qualified to pass judgement.

24 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

i think the best way to nerf her would be a combination of all these, with only smaller number changes + her 3 change to augment

And this is why I made my initial post, because if people like you get their way, we can just sell our Saryns for 5k credits.

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vor 9 Minuten schrieb Traumtulpe:

So you main Inaros, right?

You are objectively wrong. 70% DR for 30 sec at 75 energy + a Viral proc is worse than Splinter Storm (70% DR for 22 sec at 50 energy + INFINITELY SCALING DAMAGE)

Nova's Molecular Prime locks absolutely everything down AND doubles all damage AND nukes by chain reaction, the additional loot works exactly like Ivara's Prowl (except within an area, but slower).

In conclusion: You don't even know what some of the most popular frames do, yet you somehow feel qualified to pass judgement.

And this is why I made my initial post, because if people like you get their way, we can just sell our Saryns for 5k credits.

i am not the one saying that since inaros cant keep up with saryn dmg, saryn should be changed to support 😄

?? you realise saryn range on spores rigth ? with ap it will reach same lockdown potential as nova 4 and corrsive procs will reduce armor, so more dmg, so atleast vs armored targets also has an increase of dmg as an effect (since their armor is reduced and as such their dmg reduction lowered)

where did u see me comparing it to gara ? i compared it to trinity since trinity is basically the same but instead of it inflicting viral on enemy it has refill shield hp, so its closer to that then gara splinter storm.

i mean you are the one saying since inaros cant keep up with saryn dmg, saryn should be changed. which is just wrong. Like i am all for adjusting saryn but complelty chaning her because an opposite role cant keep up with sth is just the wrong way.

no idea what you meant with ur last setence, didnt go through whole thread just responded to ur main so yeah whatever.

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3 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

corrsive procs will reduce armor, so more dmg [...] you are the one saying since inaros cant keep up with saryn dmg

There are no Corrosive procs in my proposal, and I didn't say that. Try again.

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vor 22 Minuten schrieb Traumtulpe:

There are no Corrosive procs in my proposal, and I didn't say that. Try again.

i thought u ment to keep her status on abilities but take dmg of it away, but reading again you indeed only stated viral status on 4.

Nonetheless is kinda funny how u keep defending ur saryn changes when they are just ... . Every comment here pointed out that saryn nerfs are reasonable, but skipping through it i didnt found 1 single person that said changing saryn in the direction you propose is sth nice or fun or helpful. So try again with reasonable suggestions (which would be adjustments on numbers and interactions)

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5 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

try again with reasonable suggestions (which would be adjustments on numbers and interactions)

You don't seem to understand the issue. If you adjust the numbers and reduce the range, to make her "balanced" in your view, she becomes useless compared to other Warframes - unless you add something else in return.

So I took this approach to the logical conclusion and took the damage out entirely, replacing it with utility.

Nobody needs a Warframe that deals too little damage to kill anything, in a mediocre range, and nothing else.

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb Traumtulpe:

You don't seem to understand the issue

nah what u dont understand. you dont shift sth from god tier, 10x stronger then next strongest nuke frame, to worst nukeframe in game from changing 10 to 9.

i am saying it should be small number changes. main factor that should be reduced is range, mainly the spread range. if she doesnt reach 160 cast range and 45m spread !! 45m spread !!! thats the crazy thing. that is the reason why her decay doesnt matter, she spreads and infects way more then the decay can ever matter.

decreasing the range mainly the spread range gives also more "room" for other people to start killing enemies. maybe make spread range unaffected by range mods but increase it in general.

another way is like i said to give her spread on 3 abit more difficult, or plainly make it consume 1 mod slot so u have to pick between sth u want a bit more. having the spore + miamasa dmg increase makes no sense (i dont even know how it works atm with stacking viral status --> wouldnt that be a buff to miamasa, but havent looked into new status changes too much)

changing all abit would make her just slightly weaker instead of 10x stronger then other nuke frames maybe only 5-2x stronger.

changing 1 aspect would mean theyd need to be hit more drastically, depending on what is changed she is pushed to more defined position instead of doing everything

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11 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

i dont even know how it works atm with stacking viral status --> wouldnt that be a buff to miamasa

Of course you don't know, but thanks for sharing your opinion regardless!

I am actually pleased to clear this one up for you: Miasma previously caused the Viral status effect for 13.5 seconds, this has been reduced to 7.5 seconds. You can cast Miasma several times in a row to slightly increase the procs strength, however because of how quickly it falls off, the enormous energy cost, and the fact that you mod your weapons to quickly cause 10 Viral status procs anyway, it has lost in relevance severely.

It might be a better Idea now to disregard Miasma, mod for negative efficiency and high strength, and mostly spread Spores with Toxic Lash exclusively - which was an option before anyway.

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11 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Why? Because, the goal post will keep shifting, people who whine about Spores mechanic being OP today, will move to the next most OP thing once Spores hits the nerf bucket. Probably first going down the list of other DPS mechanics, then later shifting to OP tanking and stealth mechanics (though, I have been around here long enough to have seen people already ask for nerfs on certain stealth and tank and mobility mechanics even though they have not yet killed Spores)

But some people would want everyone to play one way and no other way else. In the name of pseudo-diversity. If all frames are good at all things, then in reality there is no point getting any of that 40 because just getting 1 can carry you through the whole game. Why bother farming or even saying this game has progression at that point? 

Yes! You are finally seeing the light. We are playing an evolving game, warframes and weapons get left behind and eventually updated to a more up to day, and in my opinion much better format. Saryn is a relic, it was broken from day one, it doesn't fit neither the current game nor the current frame designs, a lot of which are a blast to play because they actually require player to actively play them.

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The problem is that it just doesn't make sense to nerf her, the places where people mostly use her are: ESO, Hydron, Sortie (it depends a little bit). 

But mostly on places where you actually don't want to lose time anyways. We just do ESO for focus, Hydron for leveling up items, and Sortie for the rewards. 

Seriously, you can't convince me of that out of the box idea (that is extremely unrealistic) that a majority of people are bothered about Saryn making their lifes easier. 

Not to mention your changes just don't make sense, if people wanted to play a tank they wouldn't have chosen Saryn. Also, there's like 3 to 5 other frames that can do what she does at basically the same efficiency, while tanking, and THAT IS BROKEN.

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1 hour ago, IMP_102 said:

Yes! You are finally seeing the light. We are playing an evolving game, warframes and weapons get left behind and eventually updated to a more up to day, and in my opinion much better format. Saryn is a relic, it was broken from day one, it doesn't fit neither the current game nor the current frame designs, a lot of which are a blast to play because they actually require player to actively play them.

Oh, so you are one of those types that seem to misrepresent or warp what others say just to fit your own needs? Sorry, I do not agree with your position and never will.

When I say you all shift goal posts, it's not a merit. It shows this mindset involves a desire to progressively delete every playstyle, ability, mechanic, etc. to fit your own specific playstyle. And sure, I bet it's nice when the devs are making changes to fit what you like, and you boast of how the game is getting better and evolving to be more fun. And you best hope you get your way. Because the devs could very well misread the community, or perhaps having a big picture, they find your complaints are just of a vocal minority, and it affects their bottom line if they listen to such suggestions, or they just have a different vision of what they want the game to be, regardless of your opinion, and buff or nerf or "fix"  things that you did not ask for. What then? Shall I come along and say, "The game has evolved, too bad for you. What you liked is a relic of the past, get over it". 

I am of the position that we maintain as many different gameplay mechanics or styles as possible, while the developers introduce NEW content with NEW enemy designs that will challenge these styles. Not rework/nerf/buff/fix old things that risk upsetting people. It is better to introduce new content that challenges current gear, and let player figure out what gears they have fit well into the new content, and what doesn't, than to rework/nerf/delete/change current gear beyond recognition such that people who liked that gear are upset. Perhaps a piece of gear is not effective for a particular content release, such as Saryn not being optimal in Eidolons, but at least people who liked Saryn can still console themselves and be happy using her in the content she was and still is good in, like Defense. 

 

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10 hours ago, Vharu said:

Look, approaching the game with Power Creep and Vertical scaling... Im fine with that, that isn't taking from peoples time and effort. But Nerfing old Warframes that are foundation layers to complete Arsenal and playstyles... that is very much a problem. 

Ultimately... there is no need to nerf matured Warframes/Weapons... Scale opposition and everything else up around it. That is called vertical scaling, that is called power creep. Oh and before anyone dares say "oh that is too much work for DE and not viable"... take a look at every Warframe that just got an Armor boost EXCEPT Saryn. 

Look at the new Kuva weapons aswel... DE is very much listening to what has already been expressed, and there is clear evidence that power creep and vertical scaling will be the new approach to balancing what people think requires a nerf. The new armor scaling on enemies, that got done so future missions can be added with starting levels much higher - without exposing players to super high armored opposition. 

DE is focused on Scarlet spear, The Glass Maker, Damage balancing with damage types and functions, The New War, then the Paradox update, New Railjack Proximas and mission types, the New Warframe about to be released... All of these things aimed at growing the community and bringing in more players. I don't see a Saryn nerf on the table or in the near future, it's a headache to tackle, a headache for DE and an even bigger one for players. As a smart business decision.. you dont take the risk of losing the growing momentum Warframe has had in the last 4 months with player growth, on doing somethng that has a strong potential to halt or reverse it. 

I see hints that DE's new direction is towards Power Creep and Vertical Scaling... so put your nerf hopes to rest. 

And we're already seeing DE nerf the newly projected power-creep; Kuva Weapons are "new" content, and as such are prone to revision based on developing trends. The instant the Kuva Bramma hits 30% player usage at MR15, and laterally scales with higher MR, we're gonna see a Tonkor style nerf hit the Kuva Bramma. Vets are placing bets on "when" not "if", because we recognize this song & dance, and we know that there's a second act following it up.

Power Creep has always been the direction; that's not to say revision hasn't curbed power creep or brought the sub-meta up to par in the past, and it'd be awful silly to rule out revision as a factor moving forward.

Go to the Warframe wiki, and look up patch history notes on Chroma, Ash, Saryn, Ember, & Trinity. Old Warframes get nerfed all the time; hell, Chroma's Vex Armor calculation was reported to be malfunctioning a week after his release; it took DE 4 years to correct it, and by that point there was an entire dragon cult devoted to Chroma and his broken Armor and Damage buff.

I've heard your reasoning before, and I've seen the outcome several times before. All the pieces have been laid down; what comes will come with time. They call him "Base God Pablo" for a freaking reason; which is why the community panicked when he announced his intention to rework Saryn due to her over performance.

You can spout about her limitations all you want; Pablo uses stats and maths to determine whether or not a Warframe is over performing; I couldn't tell you if its player usage, TTK stats, or total enemies killed by 'X' ability, but Base God Pablo has spoken, and his words have not been uttered in your favor.

Keep in mind, Warframe's downward trend in player count is about to reverse, because DE finally relented, and decided to devote resources to resolving issues that have plagued Warframe from its release; On top of that, they're about to release a number of expansions that add everything from new guns & warframes to events with rich rewards & even intrigue from lore expansion. The other foot has dropped, my friend, much to our celebration.

We're getting what we've wanted. Once production slows down a tad at DE, and player count resumes growth, we're gonna see fat-trimming follow all the new stuff up. A Saryn rework/nerf will likely be shoehorned into a big update, to distract less invested players from the change in mechanics. Because that's just smart marketing, and as DE has proven in the past, it works.

Sorry to take a shot at your ego, but you, your dojo, and your prior patronage is trivial. You may shell out for Saryn, and Saryn alone, but that makes you a minority; because most of us, myself included, shell out for every Warframe & weapon we get our hands on. If you think that buying a couple of $5 skins makes you a whale, then you must have been swimming in the kiddie pool with blinders on.

 

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2 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Oh, so you are one of those types that seem to misrepresent or warp what others say just to fit your own needs? Sorry, I do not agree with your position and never will.

When I say you all shift goal posts, it's not a merit. It shows this mindset involves a desire to progressively delete every playstyle, ability, mechanic, etc. to fit your own specific playstyle. And sure, I bet it's nice when the devs are making changes to fit what you like, and you boast of how the game is getting better and evolving to be more fun. And you best hope you get your way. Because the devs could very well misread the community, or perhaps having a big picture, they find your complaints are just of a vocal minority, and it affects their bottom line if they listen to such suggestions, or they just have a different vision of what they want the game to be, regardless of your opinion, and buff or nerf or "fix"  things that you did not ask for. What then? Shall I come along and say, "The game has evolved, too bad for you. What you liked is a relic of the past, get over it". 

I am of the position that we maintain as many different gameplay mechanics or styles as possible, while the developers introduce NEW content with NEW enemy designs that will challenge these styles. Not rework/nerf/buff/fix old things that risk upsetting people. It is better to introduce new content that challenges current gear, and let player figure out what gears they have fit well into the new content, and what doesn't, than to rework/nerf/delete/change current gear beyond recognition such that people who liked that gear are upset. Perhaps a piece of gear is not effective for a particular content release, such as Saryn not being optimal in Eidolons, but at least people who liked Saryn can still console themselves and be happy using her in the content she was and still is good in, like Defense. 

 

Hate to break it to you, buddy, but your "position" is just that. A position. What's more it's founded on idealism, not pragmatism.

As DE has proven with their constant tweaking, nerfing, buffing, & reworking, they do not identify with your position.

Hell, they even comment on how bringing WF up to date and balancing are constant concerns & full time obligations, so I have no idea where you found a platform for this position.

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21 hours ago, (XB1)Vile Slanders said:

No, I don't want a new frame. I could totally live without a new frame. Grendel was a new low, and Gauss is just miserable to play. I do not want a new frame.

Just going to note that Gauss is a bloody great design who suffers from the "kinda selfish" and "one correct build" problems but has a wonderfully coherent and fluid kit for the thing he does. If you don't like doing that thing, that's fine. 

But yeah, I do think that making Miasma more like Molecular Prime, making Molt a nuke with a cooldown, and making all of Saryn's abilities cast from health with regen from Spores sounds very much like a new frame. It's actually similar to a suggestion I liked and have repeated for Garuda - I wanted her to cast from health and regenerate on enemy bleed ticks, with something else done with her third ability. But that'd be too extreme a change to drop on her now unless there was a very good reason for completely upending her kit. I don't see a reason like that for Saryn. 

And I really need to say that on Molt specifically, I really don't like cramming so many things into one ability. Right now it's a thematically cohesive ability with a well defined gameplay role - Saryn cuts and runs by creating a target that attracts all enemy attention while receiving a speed boost, optionally healing in the process with an augment. Both the decoy with its fairly big health pool and strong agro attraction and the multiplicative speed boost are also quite good, among many other lesser decoy and speed boost abilities in the game. This is just not an ability that needs more features, roles, and limitations piled on. 

And IMO, @IMP_102 already solved nerfing Saryn fairly - make Spores about weakening enemies without killing them and limit Miasma and maybe Spores propagation as well to line of sight. If she flat out can't kill through walls and can't kill passively, then you have to play actively, but otherwise can still wipe the map with good play.

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Do you mean Miasma? Spores is continuous by design. What actually are you talking about.

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21 hours ago, Vharu said:

Ultimately... there is no need to nerf matured Warframes/Weapons... Scale opposition and everything else up around it

That's infinitely more work though, and it'll get worse and worse over time as more content is being added. You'd need to redo all frames any time one needs a nerf.

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Meh one gets nerfed and people move onto the next best thing. You can put similar dps to saryn with a lockdown naramon operator

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2 hours ago, Vharu said:

Honestly, it's like the same half-a-dozen individuals here that keep bumping this thread

And a lot of the time its you. Thanks for coming back, even though you were "done with bumping this pathetic thread" by the way.

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I have to say, you display a unique way of interpreting words. One might even say you are... special.

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5 hours ago, Vharu said:

Honestly, it's like the same half-a-dozen individuals here that keep bumping this thread and calling for the nerf - it's like a small cult-like club out to get Saryn.

This being a forum, it has regulars, but there's enough turnover in that that if you started the same topic a month or two from now, it'd very possibly carry on with a completely different set of people. So no, it's pretty much the opposite, any topic you choose is just statistically likely to come up and individual posters aren't as important as we think we are.

I'm not going to say that your paranoia is misplaced, considering how universally Saryn is regarded as OP, but. X /

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On 2020-03-15 at 4:00 AM, (XB1)Vile Slanders said:

Hate to break it to you, buddy, but your "position" is just that. A position. What's more it's founded on idealism, not pragmatism.

As DE has proven with their constant tweaking, nerfing, buffing, & reworking, they do not identify with your position.

Hell, they even comment on how bringing WF up to date and balancing are constant concerns & full time obligations, so I have no idea where you found a platform for this position.

Hate to break to you buddy but railjack, aura forma, umbra forma, stance forma, kuva lich weapons, shield gating, and making all the high level enemies much more killable through armor scaling, say their position isn't whatever you are wishing it was either. Also, they have said they want us to still have this power fantasy. Not feel weak. 

And I can see they mean what they say to some degree. They are happy to make us more powerful and enable trivializing of content even more than before. If not through Saryn, then through enabling OP Tanking and near immortality of warframes, OP weapons. Content creators right now are casually putting out video after video of how shield gating has turned so many other nuker frames with overshield mechanics into tanks. And also how knockback immunity mechanics enable you to spam AOE explosions with 0 repurcussions. Seems "balanced". 

They also release new warframes that still can nuke a good radius, and in the hands of a decently competent player, that means 0 kills for rest of team. But you seem to ignore them to fit the anti-Saryn narrative.

Railjack is also another clear vertical progression system where when you reach its current end, after being done with all the avionics, and ranked up intrinsics significantly, you can even solo Veil Proxima missions. Or return to Earth Proxima to do 3-minute resource runs (for Titanium mainly), using Void Hole, and complete railjack missions in the same time it takes for a competent player to finish any star chart map (5 minutes or less). By the time other players connect to your session, you can see the "Mission Complete" pop up. The command intrinsic / NPC assistance isn't even needed at this point, until new content drops that challenges us further for railjack.

And they recently announced they are working on making Status Effects work on bosses (albeit differently from how they work on fodder). That sounds interesting, but also sounds like bosses are about to get even easier.

So in a game where there's several dozen areas (this is a low-ball estimate) where we are beyond OP and just getting more so, Saryn fits in with no need to be changed.

Side note: Releasing new content isn't idealism, it's pragmatism. It's how you build hype and excitement, get old players to return, and get new ones on board. If they didn't care about new content, warframe would still be star chart only today and probably have a quarter of its player base

 

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I don't quite agree with the assessment that Saryn is primarily a damage-dealer frame, as she's also known for being the queen of debuffs with her ability to apply Corrosive and Viral procs in copious amounts. However, I also don't think her utility needs to be CC or defenses, and I don't think changing her to apply that would satisfy anyone. Really, I'd say the one change to Saryn should be to prevent her Spores from dealing fatal damage on their own, and instead just bring enemies down to 1 health: not only would this prevent her from AFK murdering enemies, which is the main part of her that gets complained about, it would ultimately not affect her kill potential by much given that she already uses weapons, and would make it a lot easier for her to maintain her plague too.

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