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Loki suffers from old age and half his kit useless or very situational


Kaokasalis
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As one of the eight original vanilla frames, DE has been rather indifferent to Loki. Among the originals he is the frame that have seen the least amount of change and half his ability kit suffers as a result of that. Decoy is entirely useless in higher levels and Switch Teleport is too situational outside of spy missions to see any valid use. Ironically both of these abilities have amazing augments but it should not take a augment to fix a ability. They need to be looked at and have some changes done to them. A full rework that introduces entirely new abilities is not necessary for Loki. Just some tweaks and changes.

Decoy

Decoy needs some way to survive at higher levels without being destroyed instantly. At the current moment it doesn't get any additional durability from power strength nor does it inherent any bonus from whatever defensive mods that Loki has equipped. Giving it Health/Shields/Armor that is multiplied by X amount of Loki's could be a start or give it a phase where it initially absorbs incoming damage and then adds it to its total health. Decoy could also have its health entirely removed and just run on pure duration alone. It is a hologram after all.

Either way, Decoy needs some kind of change that allows it to withstand or ignore attacks in higher level missions because at the current moment it simply just not worth using.

 

Switch Teleport

As i said earlier, Switch Teleport is too situational outside of spy missions to see any valid use and this needs to change. Where i particularly find Switch Teleport lacking is in interaction with enemy targets. Currently it only briefly confuses a enemy target for 2 or 3 seconds which is entirely useless. In the soon-to-be 7 years old open beta trailer for Warframe we Excalibur, Mag, Rhino and Loki fighting a bunch of Grineer until Lech Kril shows up and he becomes their main target. Loki at two key moments uses Switch Teleport. First is to switch with Rhino causing a heavy shock wave which blows away all the nearby Grineer grunts. Second is when Loki switches with a random Grineer lancer to avoid getting hammered by Lech Kril's hammer, the one he switched with is random Grineer who promptly gets squished by the hammer. Neither of these things are possible to pull off even after 7 years of Warframe and i find that disappointing.

Allied targets that is switch teleported should receive some kind of buff or perhaps just create a basic shock wave upon being switched. This would also encourage cooperation with allies. Imagine if the buff gave a ability strength buff and a surrounded Loki switches with a Oberon who proceeds to reckon the S#&$ out of the enemies thanks to more power strength. Just a example though.

Enemy targets that is switched should be fully susceptible to both their own attacks and that of their comrades. Currently if Loki switch with a enemy bombard, the bombard just becomes disoriented for a few seconds and his rocket will pass through him which is really really disappointing. At the bare minimum, the period at which Switch Teleport confuses a target should at least be 10 seconds which is affected by duration. Even better would be if Switch Teleport inflicted a fully stacked radiation proc on enemy targets as well as making them susceptible to both their own and attacks from other enemies so something like switching bombards into their own rockets with them taking increased damage from it would be possible.

 

Those are the core issues that i find the most pressing with Loki. Invisibility and Radial Disarm does have a few issues but i think they are rather small compared to Decoy or Switch Teleport. Being Loki's main tool of survival, Invisibility is pretty short with a duration of just 12 seconds. Chroma for example has a duration of twenty-five seconds on both Elemental Ward and Vex Armor. I am not asking for that much but increasing the duration to 15-18 seconds would be a pretty good move. Being able to recast Invisibility before its duration runs out would also be much appreciated.

Loki could also use some refreshment in the ability FX/graphics or whatever its called. Many of his abilities look rather old but this is not a very glaring issue.

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Gone are the days where invisibility was all you needed to stay alive. In high level content one stray aoe from a scorch, bombard, moa, infested moa, ancient, hyeka master, or any other aoe enemy will end you.

I think they really need to find a better interaction with radial disarm on infested, personally.

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27 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

I think they really need to find a better interaction with radial disarm on infested, personally

He knockdown melee enemys. Plus, augmend make sweet enemy groups for easy kill. I dont know what a buff you want, but disarm is realy strong. 

Edited by zhellon
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43 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Plus, augmend make sweet enemy groups for easy kill. I dont know what a buff you want, but disarm is realy strong. 

Augments don't excuse an ability being poor. I would rather see infested get a slowdown debuff.

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1 hour ago, Kaokasalis said:

As one of the eight original vanilla frames, DE has been rather indifferent to Loki. Among the originals he is the frame that have seen the least amount of change and half his ability kit suffers as a result of that. Decoy is entirely useless in higher levels and Switch Teleport is too situational outside of spy missions to see any valid use. Ironically both of these abilities have amazing augments but it should not take a augment to fix a ability. They need to be looked at and have some changes done to them. A full rework that introduces entirely new abilities is not necessary for Loki. Just some tweaks and changes.

Decoy

Decoy needs some way to survive at higher levels without being destroyed instantly. At the current moment it doesn't get any additional durability from power strength nor does it inherent any bonus from whatever defensive mods that Loki has equipped. Giving it Health/Shields/Armor that is multiplied by X amount of Loki's could be a start or give it a phase where it initially absorbs incoming damage and then adds it to its total health. Decoy could also have its health entirely removed and just run on pure duration alone. It is a hologram after all.

Either way, Decoy needs some kind of change that allows it to withstand or ignore attacks in higher level missions because at the current moment it simply just not worth using.

 

Switch Teleport

As i said earlier, Switch Teleport is too situational outside of spy missions to see any valid use and this needs to change. Where i particularly find Switch Teleport lacking is in interaction with enemy targets. Currently it only briefly confuses a enemy target for 2 or 3 seconds which is entirely useless. In the soon-to-be 7 years old open beta trailer for Warframe we Excalibur, Mag, Rhino and Loki fighting a bunch of Grineer until Lech Kril shows up and he becomes their main target. Loki at two key moments uses Switch Teleport. First is to switch with Rhino causing a heavy shock wave which blows away all the nearby Grineer grunts. Second is when Loki switches with a random Grineer lancer to avoid getting hammered by Lech Kril's hammer, the one he switched with is random Grineer who promptly gets squished by the hammer. Neither of these things are possible to pull off even after 7 years of Warframe and i find that disappointing.

Decoy is fine. If it's dying, it's literally only because you're allowing enemies to shoot it.

Switch Teleport is a situational tool that does not need to change.

Not every Warframe needs a kit where to play you need to press 1-2-3-4 in order every 15 seconds to be useful.

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36 minutes ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Decoy is fine. If it's dying, it's literally only because you're allowing enemies to shoot it.

Switch Teleport is a situational tool that does not need to change.

Not every Warframe needs a kit where to play you need to press 1-2-3-4 in order every 15 seconds to be useful.

Decoy is not fine. It can't even sustain two bursts from one Grineer elite lancer at lvl 100. That's no feasible time for Loki to kill his enemies. Also having an actual durable decoy that can withstand enemy hits would make it easier to kill enemies after they have been disarmed as they would focus on the decoy.

The niche that Switch Teleport currently fill is to small to have any real use. There is nothing wrong with expanding its usage and making it better as long as the core values of the the ability remains unchanged.

So its better to have a warframe with only two useful abilities? I disagree. You wont have to press 1-2-3-4 every 15 seconds to be useful, you will just simply have more options. Loki was also one of the first frames if not the first to have actual ability synergy so you should be using his abilities in tandem with each other.

Edited by Kaokasalis
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Dunno man. I vaguely agree his kit is outdated (especially decoy), but Loki is FAR from being in need of a rework.

Get in line, there's Nyx, Hydroid, Zephyr, Chroma, Garuda and more (basically, anything that is not a nuke frame Rhino, Nidus, Nova, Nekros ) waiting for a rework first.

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55 minutes ago, zorgy said:

Dunno man. I vaguely agree his kit is outdated (especially decoy), but Loki is FAR from being in need of a rework.

Get in line, there's Nyx, Hydroid, Zephyr, Chroma, Garuda and more (basically, anything that is not a nuke frame Rhino, Nidus, Nova, Nekros ) waiting for a rework first.

That's up to DE to decide. I made this thread with the intention of bringing what i perceive as problems regarding Loki to DE. You are free to do the same for the frames you wish to see improved or changed but you aren't really contributing anything to your own intentions or mine by bringing up other frames in a topic dedicated to Loki.

Edited by Kaokasalis
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3 hours ago, zorgy said:

Get in line, there's Nyx, Hydroid, Zephyr, Chroma, Garuda and more (basically, anything that is not a nuke frame Rhino, Nidus, Nova, Nekros ) waiting for a rework first.

Garuda is one of the few frames that has a use for all of her kit abilities and each one synergizes well, she's (imo) one of the best designed warframes at the moment. Zephyr, and Nyx I'll give you. Chroma's 1 and 4 make me super sad.

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Loki has always suffered by having mischievous powers but no real damage, even as soon as I got Ivara I saw less reason to use Loki. Making his switch teleport able to get enemies killed by friendly fire would give him at least some lethality, or if he could shape shift and run through an area in plain sight while also misdirecting enemies then he would at least have a rather interesting niche. Maybe if decoy made a target look like Loki so enemies would shoot each other for a while too. His powers are supposed to rely on trickery so having the enemy accidentally shoot each other would fit pretty well, keep him from actively killing yet adding a bit of actual damage to his kit. 

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Il y a 5 heures, TheGrimCorsair a dit :

Decoy is fine. If it's dying, it's literally only because you're allowing enemies to shoot it.

The only way for the Decoy to survive is to put it in a spot that enemies can't shoot and exploit their bad AI. That's not how an ability should work. 

Il y a 7 heures, Skaleek a dit :

Gone are the days where invisibility was all you needed to stay alive. In high level content one stray aoe from a scorch, bombard, moa, infested moa, ancient, hyeka master, or any other aoe enemy will end you.

+1. There are more and more AoE enemies and Loki's only way of survival is to stay cloaked while spamming Disarm to avoid stray rockets. Not the most effective.

And when it comes to slowing down Infested, I'd rather have a Slova, Nyx, Ember, Nezha, Nidus, Hildryn, Slowquinox, Khora, etc.

Edited by Blade_Wolf_16
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5 hours ago, Kaokasalis said:

you aren't really contributing anything to your own intentions or mine by bringing up other frames in a topic dedicated to Loki.

have made several threads about why (and especially how) Nyx needs a rework (that usually get 0-5 replies and are buried quickly)

but the point is, Loki isn't that much in need of a rework.

the invisibility and radial disarm alone make him an extremely good frame (and a better Nyx than Nyx). decoy and switch teleport could be better for sure (especially decoy, in fact, all abilities that create a temporary thing like gara's wall, decoy, molt, halo, iron skin, etc should follow that rule of "absorb incoming damage for the first few seconds to get more hp" to be consistant) but there's more urgent frames in need of love, and instead of trying to make DE divert resources to a frame that's 2/4 fine, said resources could (or should) be used on frames that are more in need.

or, if you prefer me to word it differently, "I don't disagree with your opinion that he needs a rework, though he's fine the way he is, especially with his augments. there's more urgent problems at hand."

Edited by zorgy
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Decoy is meh. I've only used to move around areas faster by switching with it which I'm sure isnt the intended purpose of this ability.

His invisibility is strong until aoe dmg occurs.

Switch teleport is meh. I usually use this to fix the dumb ai robot drone after he gets stuck in PoE. 

Radial Disarm is pretty strong but having to spam it is quite annoying with the long animation. Maybe instead make it a toggled aura.

I can't seem to come up with ideas to replace his 1 and 3. Maybe make his 1 unkillable (like a hologram) and taunt enemies. Make his 3 maybe disorient the enemies near the swap target for a few seconds.

I'm sure someone can come up with cooler ideas.

Remember peepz. This is a feedback forum. Even if something "works", doesn't mean it's good enough or fun enough. Things can always be made to work better and can be made more fun while doing it. Just like technology. It continuously advances.

Edited by Tanotj
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