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Let's be honest about Status: Crowd Controls are useless, Everyone Want DAMAGE


Bakaguya-sama
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No PvE game embody the phrase "Death is the best CC" better than Warframe.  

The Time-to-kill for mobs is hilariously low. Why lockdown enemies for a couple of secondswhen you can simply kill them right now. Things like... stagger or knock down... maybe matter if you are one of those people who play the game with only a poorly-modded Braton. For the rest of us however, they are pointless. (CCs can be useful if it lock down a whole room like Limbo or Vauban)

Which is why Crowd Control status like Impact, Cold or Blast or Puncture are not wanted. Some of these status makes dealing damage even harder by knocking enemies down and reduce their hit profile. That's a big no no.  Even Radiation. You can have enemies do 10x damage against each other and it would still be useless. Cuz you will still be killing them much faster than them killing each other.   

It's time we be honest: All Status need a damage related component to be usefulBe it damage dealing or damage amplification.  

Some examples of how to add damage related component to statuses:

  • Cold increase Crit Damage against affected target (makes them brittle)  
  • Impact gives a flat Crit Chance increase against affected target (disorient the enemy, opening them up for critical strikes)  
  • Puncture boost Ability Damage agaisnt affected target. (compromising enemies's environmental protection)  
  • Radiation burns a small % max HP over time (literally cause cancer)  
  • Blast just deal a burst of bonus damage.         

Etc. Etc. Something along these lines, numbers  are up to for balancing. The idea is that all status helps deal damage in some ways.  

Will these be Over Powered? No, not really. Status Effects compete with each other. If you build Cold, you can't get viral. If you build Corrosive, you can't get Rad  (unless its something with innate status like kuva weapons). Right now everyone are running Heat + Viral, which are so much more powerful than the rest. So there will be no net increase in player's power, only increased choice.  

In the long term, this means that DE can make stronger, more challenging boss/enemies that are susceptible to status effects. Like pre-nerf Wolf of Saturn Six for example, who is tanky as hell and resistance to crit. Imagine if a team work together and bring different status types to the table to amplify total damage output, making the fight easier. This will justify making more bullet spongy enemies.    

Improved gameplay, ,more teamwork,  more diversity of choice. Let's make Status great for once.   

 

 

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Actually I prefer CC. I would much rather run radiation and watch some grineer shoot each other to death then have to spend my time shooting them myself. CC is a very important part of any PVE game and provides a whole new play-style for those that like exploring new and interesting paths besides " barbarian rage smash" players.

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I was thinking about CC being less needed now because of the current Armor/Health Scaling but in a couple of my Survival runs, i still used CC but mostly for surviving instead of taking my time to kill the enemies because with current Viral and how it amps up Slash, it would take a very long time to see when you’re staring to fall off. The 100% Health damage ( up to over 300%) makes it deal 1 Million damage at the highest against over lvl 1.4K Infested or bleed the Armored enemies in Mot very fast from Slash with the Bramma. But in the most of the time, it’s Death > CC.

Edited by GPrime96
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I think we just have a bit too much choice and a few too many bad choices. We have Bleed as the all around best DoT, and now two nigh-interchangeable force multipliers for armored units in Viral and Corrosive which has ended up meaning the same thing having Viral as a force multiplier for everyone and uh, I guess Corrosive is an option for armor too if you like using that instead for some reason. Heat splits the difference and can kinda offer some support to Viral or Corrosive. And everything else is weak CC. Cold got stacking to a Nova-like slow, but I can't even use the base Cold on my Quellor without giving up my new Viral damage and using the same-but-less-universal Corrosive instead.

So I agree with the OP - if status is a damage mechanic, it ought to always have a damage element. And preferably set up in such a way that you can't rainbow it for self-multiplying effects - like how you can't have Corrosive and Viral on the same boomstick or pokeystick right now, a very good thing.

It's either that, or make it such that adding CC doesn't mean losing much damage - that example of putting Cold on a Corrosive weapon is one case where this is a good trade. The other way to do this would be to drastically reduce the damage force-multiplier effects of all statuses that have a damage-related element, making them comparable to what Heat and Toxin do with their DoTs, so that there just isn't much damage to lose there. 

It's not damage vs. CC, really, because they both have roles. It's that we're really trading massive damage multiplication for fairly weak CC, and the CC is already in a place where it can't be reasonably buffed anymore.

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I believe that's more a component of the game's current balance. In particular, just how effectively we can delete entire rooms. Although, being honest, we can do the same with CC, it's just less direct (which is why damage is more desirable)

 

The damage vs CC thing can't be solved whilst the damage system is screwy. If you consider the basic run-and-gun gameplay to be the 'default' (since every frame can do it to some degree), then that needs to be polished up before we start dealing with rebalancing nukes and mass CC. And, to be honest? They're going to have to be stripped back eventually. The ability to basically turn off the game is a big contributor to the 'arbitrarily immune enemy' problem we have going. 

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Hm. I see where you’re coming from, OP. You make good points.

I wonder if by focusing on damage instead of CC, it would shrink the window if not outright close it to make interesting CC effects on enemies, or interesting enemies to be CC’d in interesting ways. Whether it’s fine or not right now is up for (quite heated) debate, but the future holds mysteries in this constantly-updated game. Would this line of thinking eventually turn into “Strip out CC, make it damage”?

Personally I’d be saddened if that was the case. I hear that obliterating everything can get boring, and good CC options or needs might help keep it interesting.

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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That's the other side to this, yeah, that warframe abilities are fantastically good at CC and commonly very bad at killing things. Very few frames can press a button to kill everything in the room, but quite a lot of them can drop the room on their asses, while weapons are limited to at most a 16m bubble at a time whether they're killing or immobilizing enemies, but very good at the killing part.

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Just going to put this here. Cc would matter, if there were rewards to higher difficulties where we no longer kill fast, and there was less incentive on completing faster. 

Cc isn't useful because the game isn't designed for cc. It's all about being faster no matter what, enemy levels don't matter because the rewards are always the same. 

Because cc reduces your kill speed it is objectively worse at completing content. Survival omitted, kind of.

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Il y a 8 heures, CelsiusPrime a dit :

Actually I prefer CC. I would much rather run radiation and watch some grineer shoot each other to death then have to spend my time shooting them myself. CC is a very important part of any PVE game and provides a whole new play-style for those that like exploring new and interesting paths besides " barbarian rage smash" players.

I don't trust you. I don't think that in-game, most of the time, you play a statut weapon with the status radiation.

 

il y a 47 minutes, DrivaMain a dit :

Problem is most of the warframe's mission demands damage over CC. What we need is more content where CC is required or viable. Excavation, Mobile Defense, Hijack is a good example of this.

Nova slow or Volt (and lot of other warframe) have far stronger CC than any weapon could have.

Edited by GKP_light
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I think some of you guys are mistaken. The CC component of these status will still be there. Im suggesting to add a damage component on top of that. Like Electric proc has both damage and CC, for example.   

As for making CC more important, there has always been one clear ways to do it: Increase Time-to-kill. Nerf AoE nuke Warframes like Saryn and buff the enemies' health and armor.  Judging from what I have seen fron the community, I can say that you guys all hate that.

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il y a une heure, Bakaguya-sama a dit :

buff the enemies' health and armor. 

Don't buff armor. A high armor only create unbalance between Greener and the others factions.

But yes for a big buff health. (and on shield, to keep its value similar to health)

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11 hours ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

The Time-to-kill for mobs is hilariously low. Why lockdown enemies for a couple of secondswhen you can simply kill them right now. Things like... stagger or knock down... maybe matter if you are one of those people who play the game with only a poorly-modded Braton. For the rest of us however, they are pointless. (CCs can be useful if it lock down a whole room like Limbo or Vauban)

And this will remain the case as long as DE refuse to have proper enemy tiering within the same mission. With the amount of enemies Warframe throws at us, a low TTK per enemy is straight-up necessary in order for combat to flow in any kind of smooth way, but this by definition devalues crowd control. You can sort of find some wiggle room by overbuffing enemy damage, but that starts to get oppressive VERY quickly, leading to cookie-cutter builds. What you NEED in a system like this is a clear distinction between "Common" enemies that players can mow down by the hundreds with little opposition and "Special" enemies who spawn rarely but offer a much more pronounced challenge. Right now, the game does have "somewhat stronger enemies" in the likes of Bombards, Heavy Gunners, Corpus Techs, Ancients, etc. However, those enemies are WAY too common and still WAY too weak. They're also functionally indistinct from other enemies, bar having slightly higher stats.

For this reason, I recommend introducing enemy "Classes," specifically the following: Common, Uncommon, Miniboss, Boss. Commons would be the rank-n-file nobodies we rip through like they aren't even there - Corpus Crewmen, Lancers, Chargers and Runners, etc. Uncommons would be the likes of Bombards/Heavy Gunners, Corpus Techs, various Ancients and Boilers and such. Minibosses would constitute the Nox and Manic, the Bursa and Ambulas, the Juggernaut, etc. Bosses would be the named characters in assassination missions. I would hard-cap the number of Uncommons who can exist on a map at the same time and jack their spawn rate down hard to the point where players don't see more than a couple of them per minute. Minibosses I'd make very rare, maybe once per "rotation" or so, and certainly never more than one at a time. In return, I'd make both of them not necessarily "more deadly" but definitely "more tanky."

Warframe's combat system and enemy design paradigm all but completely lack structure, far as I'm concerned. Adding more rigidly-defined enemy roles ought to help give more of our tools a reason to exist.

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9 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Problem is most of the warframe's mission demands damage over CC. What we need is more content where CC is required or viable. Excavation, Mobile Defense, Hijack is a good example of this.

I'd written a concept a while back for an event that was a Pacifist CC hostage situation.
Killing escalates the captors... so you have to be able to manage and defend, while respectfully controlling the enemy.

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On 2020-03-11 at 4:25 AM, Bakaguya-sama said:

No PvE game embody the phrase "Death is the best CC" better than Warframe.  

I've been trying to point this out for a while.

There are extremely powerful statuses such as corrosive, viral, heat and toxin, and then we have totally useless statuses such as blast, impact, radiation and puncture, especially puncture, since while I shoot an enemy it changes absolutely nothing if, for those 2 seconds while I kill it, it will do me less damage.

All of this is further made worse by the fact that the most dangerous enemies against which these statuses could actually serve are immune to statuses.

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vor 11 Stunden schrieb (XB1)francy x096:

All of this is further made worse by the fact that the most dangerous enemies against which these statuses could actually serve are immune to statuses.

I think this is the main problem, enemys where it would be useful simply are immune to it, would make bosses and certain enemys give some strategy and purpose even, i used to strip armor with a Acrid or Tysis of Kela as example on Sorties, you noticed the difference, problem is making all balanced, if you have to rely on the procs it will cause disadvantage to those without procs, same for CC Frames, you already notice that in lets say the control area bounty where you have to kill to keep the control up, CC Frames are very useless there, or Eidolon stuff or long run endless missions which only makes Tanky frames useful, why i not like Eidolon and other things, it makes other things irrelevant.

This is why balance is needed, not becuase of PVP or such but because to make things not stand out to much, but then DE releases things like the Bramma new Meta things, ruining and destroying former frames and weapons immidietly. 😞

DE should more focus on balance instead of releasing shiny new frames and weapons that are by now only just straight upgrades to older stuff now, they seemingly stopped trying to make unique weapons with lets say unique fire mechanic or syndergy. But then rebalancing not makes more money sadly. It sitll not excuses how certain thigns get treated.

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