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Stop holding Umbral forma hostage, and do something with Nightwave


Tamatu
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Umbral forma is currently locked behind either this very rare cycle of NW that you guys keep failing to bring up to schedule (like many other things in the game), or the very rare chance that it drops from RJ.

Just let us buy it for platinum. Make it as expensive as you want, i don't care. Just give us a guaranteed way of obtaining it when we do need it, or read further:

The way Umbral forma started out was good. You get it every 3 months from NW, cool idea. Then it became apparent you guys are not keeping up with NW. How long has this intermission been going on? 6 months? We missed an entire umbra forma cycle. God knows how long till we see another one.

Not to even mention that anything you guys do is never guaranteed, so who knows if you were even intending to bring it back. Honestly, we don't need story based nightwaves if it's causing you trouble. Just make it simple: Intermission every 3 months, with always a rare arcane and umbral forma as end rewards. No need for story, or too much uniqueness if it's not possible.

The fact that you removed the old alerts with NW is good, less randomness. BUT: This change is only good under the simple circumstance that you do keep NW updated though, which is currently not the case.
If we are stuck in over-30-standing hell, which is even capped at 90, which only gives us 15 creds per rank (that is nothing), then what was the point of removing old alerts? This limbo we are stuck in is currently much worse than your old alert system.

I do understand and remember when you mentioned after the NW implementation that this whole thing isn't making you money, iirc. If that's what's holding you back from doing anything with it, just let us buy ranks for plat like everything else and problem solved. People will be willing to pay, (some of them) and the option will still be there to play it as it currently is.

Edited by Tamatu
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Your thread let's me believe that you think that umbra mods and the umbra forma are needed for any kind of content in the game.

It's fun to have a umbra forma on a frame. But you don't really need that at all. It's just the cherry on the cake. It's fine that it's rare as all hell.
You gave almost no reason why DE should change things from what they are. Sure, you said that we should be able to buy the Umbra Forma with plat, which would give DE a small amount of money. But we have to wonder if DE WANTS to make money this way. Yes, DE is a company, and companies have to make money. But a companies also have to think about what people think about them. Do you think DE wants to be like Apple, selling wheels without brakes for 400$?

Edit:
You said you wouldn't care if DE made the Umbra Forma REALLY expensive. Now I wonder, do you pay for your plat, or do you trade for it? And do you earn your own money, or do you use someone else's money to buy plat?

Edited by WhiteMarker
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3 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Your thread let's me believe that you think that umbra mods and the umbra forma are needed for any kind of content in the game.

 

This comment makes me think you assume it it isn't needed or valid enough to discuss. Umbral mods are very nice, there are several builds where it's an obviously good choice to have. I can have several frames where i know umbral will be taking up at least one slot. If i can always have that one mod cost half, that I know i will use, why wouldn't i want more of these? One very useful feature of it is that i can allow several build to have one or two open slots if i can use umbrals on them. That's a huge advantage in build variety and comfort.

I could also go further about how nothing in this game really requires any sort of serious build,  especially after the recent update where everything became even easier. So i could play the "we don't really need anything" card here, but that'd be just as redundant as your first statement.

Content being as easy as it is requires a different topic.

6 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

You gave almost no reason why DE should change things from what they are.

I gave a pretty valid reason, did you read? We had the old alerts replaced with the current NW, but it isn't updated, which is a huge issue. 

 

7 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

But we have to wonder if DE WANTS to make money this way. Yes, DE is a company, and companies have to make money. But a companies also have to think about what people think about them. Do you think DE wants to be like Apple, selling wheels without brakes for 400$?

 How is having an OPTION the same as a completely unrelated company doing completely different things? You are going way off topic here. Why wouldn't DE want to give us an option to buy a nice tool that is useful, while also making money? (While said tool being available in a hopefully 3-month cycle of nightwave)

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3 minutes ago, Tamatu said:

I gave a pretty valid reason, did you read? We had the old alerts replaced with the current NW, but it isn't updated, which is a huge issue. 

This has nothing to do with making Umbra Forma more accessible.
DE should just update NW, or make seasons longer (meaning you need more standing per rank). They shouldn't just abandon rewards by putting them in the market or something.

5 minutes ago, Tamatu said:

 How is having an OPTION the same as a completely unrelated company doing completely different things? You are going way off topic here. Why wouldn't DE want to give us an option to buy a nice tool that is useful, while also making money? (While said tool being available in a hopefully 3-month cycle of nightwave)

You didn't get my point, did you?
It's not just about what a company could do. It's also about what a company should do. And about what a company wants to do. If DE really wanted to make money with Umbra Forma, they would be in the shop already.
If you could buy them with plat, why bother with NW ever again?
What I said about Apple was a comparison. Does DE want to do it? What would people say about them basically removing one of the best rewards (maybe even the best reward) from NW.

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2 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

This has nothing to do with making Umbra Forma more accessible.

How the hell not? Updating NW so a simple intermission doesn't last 6 damned months is exactly how you make it more accessible.

4 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

If you could buy them with plat, why bother with NW ever again?

If i could buy any frame for 200-300 plat from the market, why would i ever play the game again?

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

They could delete Umbral mods as if they never existed and the result would be absolutely no meaningful impact on the game. They are unnecessary. 

What are you on about? 

No real knowledge of the game i see.

8 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I'd buy Umbra forma. I already buy regular forma. With how often the game gets re balanced  it's kind of hard to pull the trigger and use the 2 umbra forma I have. What works now might not with the next patch.

Same. I build forma every day and also buy them often. Even if my umbra uses are well thought out i can never know who will get the hammer next.

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49 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Your thread let's me believe that you think that umbra mods and the umbra forma are needed for any kind of content in the game.

It's fun to have a umbra forma on a frame. But you don't really need that at all. It's just the cherry on the cake. It's fine that it's rare as all hell.
You gave almost no reason why DE should change things from what they are. Sure, you said that we should be able to buy the Umbra Forma with plat, which would give DE a small amount of money. But we have to wonder if DE WANTS to make money this way. Yes, DE is a company, and companies have to make money. But a companies also have to think about what people think about them. Do you think DE wants to be like Apple, selling wheels without brakes for 400$?

Edit:
You said you wouldn't care if DE made the Umbra Forma REALLY expensive. Now I wonder, do you pay for your plat, or do you trade for it? And do you earn your own money, or do you use someone else's money to buy plat?

There are a lot of things that aren't "needed" in Warframe. Railjack parts, avionics, most frames, most weapons, and most mods are not "needed" to complete the starchart, sorties, bosses, etc. Does that mean that it would be okay if all of those things had the same rate of acquisition as Umbral Forma?

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15 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

They could delete Umbral mods as if they never existed and the result would be absolutely no meaningful impact on the game. They are unnecessary. 

What are you on about? 

Clearly you've never built a crit melee for heavy attacks. Sacrificial Steel is almost mandatory on those builds, and removing it would remove the majority of weapons from the crit heavy build pool.

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30 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

What I said about Apple was a comparison. Does DE want to do it? What would people say about them basically removing one of the best rewards (maybe even the best reward) from NW.

What makes you think DE would stop having them in NW if they sold them for plat? They have slots, forma bundles, and other items available for plat that are in the NW reward list.

Not to say that I want Umbral Forma to be available for plat. I just want some logical consistency. Personally I'm against them being in Railjack either, but as long as NW continues to be inconsistent, then it needs to be available somewhere.

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1 minute ago, Tamatu said:

Same. I build forma every day and also buy them often. Even if my umbra uses are well thought out i can never know who will get the hammer next.

I wanted to umbra Mirage when vengeful ephemera provided a way to consistently use eclipse. That would have been a complete waste. Every status just got changed. Meaning almost  every single frame just got a change. Who knows how long the most recent changes to status effects will last in their current iteration. I don't even have maxed umbra mods because I would not be able to use them unless I used umbra forma or dropped an exilus mod to fit them in. 

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No criticism of DE but when I first heard of the whole Nightwave thing I was like "Uhhhhh how is that gonna work".  How would they possibly work on major content releases AND have time to do nightwave cutscenes and voices and the specific stuff like armors, ephemera, decoration items.   

After Lich's and RJ I knew Glassmaker wasnt going to make it on time lol.  

In my opinion they just need to tweek the system.  Intermissions should have umbra forma and all past NW rewards in the NW store.   Give us alot more point for prestige ranks.   Then release story stuff whenever its available but no rush.   

Also old Alerts had some stuff thats missing from Nightwave.  Kavat DNA, rare mods like Hammershot.  I dont even know where to farm Hammershot the only one I ever got was from back in the day lol.  

Also I think NW should have alot more challenges to run per week/day,  and we need alot more variety to the challenges.

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7 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I wanted to umbra Mirage when vengeful ephemera provided a way to consistently use eclipse. That would have been a complete waste. Every status just got changed. Meaning almost  every single frame just got a change. Who knows how long the most recent changes to status effects will last in their current iteration. I don't even have maxed umbra mods because I would not be able to use them unless I used umbra forma or dropped an exilus mod to fit them in. 

If i umbrad my chroma just for eidolons i'd be in a pickle right now as well. Fortunately I do use him regularly and it doesn't affect me, the forma was still worth it. 

6 minutes ago, (PS4)AbBaNdOn_ said:

No criticism of DE but when I first heard of the whole Nightwave thing I was like "Uhhhhh how is that gonna work".  How would they possibly work on major content releases AND have time to do nightwave cutscenes and voices and the specific stuff like armors, ephemera, decoration items.   

After Lich's and RJ I knew Glassmaker wasnt going to make it on time lol.  

In my opinion they just need to tweek the system.  Intermissions should have umbra forma and all past NW rewards in the NW store.   Give us alot more point for prestige ranks.   Then release story stuff whenever its available but no rush.   

Also old Alerts had some stuff thats missing from Nightwave.  Kavat DNA, rare mods like Hammershot.  I dont even know where to farm Hammershot the only one I ever got was from back in the day lol.  

Also I think NW should have alot more challenges to run per week/day,  and we need alot more variety to the challenges.

Pretty well said, NW does need a lot of tweaks.

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Instead of Umbra Forma, DE need to rework the polarity system as a whole, so that we can more freely use regular Forma without locking our builds into inflexibility. It's a massively out of date system at this point, and doesn't reflect the cost burden of current build expectations. All the Primed mods, new expensive mods, Rivens and more. You should not need to restrictively 6+ forma an item just to fit one specific build at the cost of most others. The system was meant to allow more flexibility in choices - only really needing a few slots polarised - not to restrict.

 

Now, turning that equation around, if unlocked polarities could be mixed and matched optionally, then suddenly there's much less need for Umbra Forma in most cases, because you can have every other slot freely polarised to fit with enough investment. Only expensive AND triple-umbral loadouts would be impossible without the U-Forma.Those three umbrals take 48 of your 74-78, but that's still leaving 26-30 capacity to spend across 5(+exilus), for an average mod drain per slot of 9-10 (before polarity). Plenty of 9s/11s to fit, or drop in those 7(4)-costs to pay for a fatty 14(7) - 16(8).

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Abrasive topics like this rarely yield favorable results.

Intermission was introduced to appease those that constantly complained about the scarcity of Nitain Extract, which is actually required for progression and in high quantities. That's why we've been in intermission II for 142 days now.

Umbra Forma is a QoL comfort thing, like Rivens are, and only min-maxers are stressing over the scarcity.

While I agree that Umbra Forma should have a more reliable method of acquisition, I'd rather see it interwoven into the story more; as it seems to originate from a single warframe (Excaliber Umbra) with little to no explanation to how this unique feature of a Warframe is adaptable to other Warframes.

Edited by Vaeldious
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I have several builds using umbral mods which I cannot currently upgrade further because some of my frames have umbral slots and some others haven't. I'd really like to see some more reliable ways of acquisition.

But umbral mods are currently DE's carrot stick. How to force some players play broken stupid uninteresting railjack? Let's bring up umbral forma as highest reward. How to force players return to the game every single day and make them complete stupid repeating assignments? Give them umbral forma at the end.

There's no way DE gonna release it, unless something even more desirable is created.

 

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2 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

Abrasive topics like this rarely yield favorable results.

 

Petting them on the head and giving them snacks doesn't do a whole lot for the health of the game either.

2 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

Intermission was introduced to appease those that constantly complained about the scarcity of Nitain Extract, which is actually required for progression and in high quantities. That's why we've been in intermission II for 142 days now.

Wrong, we have been in this state solely because they probably took on a lot of projects and can't keep up.

Having nitain is very nice indeed, but the way we are dealt nw credits is a really poor idea. We should be getting those 15 for every level, (or at least 5-10) even the ones that also give different items.

4 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

Umbra Forma is a QoL comfort thing, like Rivens are, and only min-maxers are stressing over the scarcity.

Poor argument, sorry. This can be said about 99% of things in the game, that they are QoL. Thing is, umbrals are a direct upgrade to their non-umbra parts, especially when used with each other.

On the other hand, if we go by your statement and i acknowledged it for a second: It is good to have more QoL.

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20 minutes ago, Tamatu said:

Petting them on the head and giving them snacks doesn't do a whole lot for the health of the game either

Don't expect much by being accusatory and offensive. That's the opposite of how constructive feedback works. Being condescending and aggressive will simply get the topic overlooked as quickly as a "DE SUCKS BECAUSE X" titled thread.
 

20 minutes ago, Tamatu said:

Wrong, we have been in this state solely because they probably took on a lot of projects and can't keep up.

You can not arbitrarily declare I am wrong based on something you THINK is a probability. That's not how facts work. Alert time variability WAS the reason for Nightwave replacing Alerts, and Nitain availability WAS the main reason Intermission was introduced and left open for extended periods of time. 
 

20 minutes ago, Tamatu said:

We should be getting those 15 for every level,

You are referring to Prestige, which is well past the "normal" guidelines of Nightwave, which simply rolls right back into the reasoning as to why Intermission is hanging around for so long (see: Nitain). I don't disagree that Nightwave could use refinement in rewards, tasks, and timelines.
 

20 minutes ago, Tamatu said:

Poor argument, sorry.

I don't believe so. It is taking something that WAS unique to a single Warframe and adapting it to every other warframe. Need I remind you how well that worked out for Itzal's Blink? Having such a feature like Umbra polarity on anything besides Excal Umbra and Paracesis is completely QoL, at the very least without an explanation in the lore as to why or how it is possible; otherwise it simply detracts from Umbra's uniqueness. 


I believe a more viable solution (in addition to Nightwave being revamped):

27 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

if unlocked polarities could be mixed and matched optionally

Something along the lines of how Aura Forma are universal. Of course, Forma of any kind are the bread and butter of the free-to-play with time invested business model DE employs and is highly unlikely to change. 

Edited by Vaeldious
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3 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

You can not arbitrarily declare I am wrong based on something you THINK is a probability. That's not how facts work. Alert time variability WAS the reason for Nightwave replacing Alerts, and Nitain availability WAS the main reason Intermission was introduced and left open for extended periods of time. 

Yet you are declaring your reasoning as facts, hypocrites are very amusing indeed.

You are wrong because the availability of nitain is just a symptom of the previous way being sucky, not the main cause. The whole timegate thing was a bad idea, nitain just happened to be one of the resources locked behind such a terrible idea.

It being open this long is just them buying themselves time instead of refreshing.

It is a FACT that DE has been taking up way too many projects at once, and it IS obvious and a fact that they are not meeting any respectable delivery times because of such things.

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Just now, Tamatu said:

Yet you are declaring your reasoning as facts, hypocrites are very amusing indeed.

No, I am relaying the reasoning given by DE when both Nightwave and Intermission were deployed. Feel free to look at the announcements yourself, which you obviously haven't done.
 

1 minute ago, Tamatu said:

It is a FACT that DE has been taking up way too many projects at once, and it IS obvious and a fact that they are not meeting any respectable delivery times because of such things.

While it may appear that DE tends to spread themselves thin at times, without knowing the technical/logistical side of things, it's still wild speculation.

I can see you would rather continue being irrational and emotional, so I believe my efforts here to discuss the topic with you have surely come to an end.

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4 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

gib umbrals plz

yes pliz. DE gib me umbral, i got a family of 40+ to feed.

3 minutes ago, Vaeldious said:

I can see you would rather continue being irrational and emotional, so I believe my efforts here to discuss the topic with you have surely come to an end.

You are that very thing, but if you wanna continue being such a person so be it. Your oh so greatly declared efforts have been nothing but your narrow views, so continue being [DE]Sheep. 😇

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