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So many frames are wasted on current content.


Ikyr0
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Nuke and/or melee meta has never been stronger. Let me explain.

With enemies being squishier than ever, I'm gravitating only toward nuke frames, or melee platforms. Frames that require a bit of a "setup time", like Mag and Nidus for example, are virtually useless in most content. By the time your 2 animates, the entire room has been deaded by a fast melee or nuke frame in your squad. 

Frames that require setups have been pushed deeper into the "endgame" due to enemy nerfs. Mobs all die in less than a second, and this feature has now extended into lvl 120+. I'm sure Nidus and Mag are still fantastic against lvl 200 enemies where mobs live longer than 0.5s, but this is like 5% of the content I do. (Is it actually time to just build a range power strength Mag? Not sure how well her 3&4 scale, probably not well).

So your Mesas, Saryns, or anything fast with a melee weapon will wipe the tileset while you're still casting your 2. 

On a positive note, I'm a Baruuk main and he's a God right now. 

I'm not actually calling for nerfs. We just need more focused frame designs and reworks. If we're going down the ARPG route (plentiful dumb enemies), then all frames need to be nukers and/or melee platforms. In the light of that argument, Protea looks like another DOA frame in terms of meta. There are probably at least 15-20 great frames, and a half dozen bad frames, that don't play well in the current content.

Discuss.

Edited by Ikyr0
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Why not just create a content that puts players at a much higher difficulty where nuking only takes someone so far before getting a supporting ally? Changing all the warframes into nukers and/or melee platformers won't change anything. Player's are already competing with each other for kills in general gameplay, the change will just put even more emphasis into everyone competing with each other. Prior to the enemy nerfs, public players in survival has been doing the same thing for most of it's existence - going off on their own in another section of the map so they can get their own kills. And yet, most of the missions in the game doesn't even need to have nukers because the objectives doesn't even need us to kill.

This one is a personal desire; I actually like having frames not functioning the same as the others. I like having different play-style via the frames - support, empower, cc. Otherwise it'll literally feel like they're wearing skins for the sake of looking different instead of being different.

 

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3 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

Why not just create a content that puts players at a much higher difficulty where nuking only takes someone so far before getting a supporting ally? Changing all the warframes into nukers and/or melee platformers won't change anything. Player's are already competing with each other for kills in general gameplay, the change will just put even more emphasis into everyone competing with each other. Prior to the enemy nerfs, public players in survival has been doing the same thing for most of it's existence - going off on their own in another section of the map so they can get their own kills. And yet, most of the missions in the game doesn't even need to have nukers because the objectives doesn't even need us to kill.

This one is a personal desire; I actually like having frames not functioning the same as the others. I like having different play-style via the frames - support, empower, cc. Otherwise it'll literally feel like they're wearing skins for the sake of looking different instead of being different.

 

The 'competing' bit is what is wrong with a lot of the complainers in a CO-OP game they ALWAYS need to look BETTER than EVERYONE ELSE. And it drives them insane to the point the complain about the Damage frames do more damage than non damage frames.

 

In response to the OP no the meta for the longest time up until recently was tank frames they were the most commonly used warframes I have seen in most content until the recent changes. Because all the damage in the world will not wipe enemies who one shot you. To have gotten the squishier DPS frames to work you'd have to use convoluted methods like finding a specific choke point on the tile set use very specific weapons that synergize with the and possibly throw out a specter and literally just camp that area.

 

Now that enemy scaling has been reworked does that mean that the damage players put might need to be revised and tweaked a bit sure. But that does not mean there is anything wrong with tank frames. You literally are NOT required to play DPS frames you can play whatever you want you do not have to be meta focused. I played Limbo in a solo mot survival before the health rework and was able to scale up to level 140 plus enemies with the loadout I had before leaving. The non 'DPS Warframes' do not need to be reworked into nukers they are able to kill reliably enough to keep up with that content. 

Not only that it would literally be WRONG for them to do that because then it is legally defined as a SCAM. Taking a character who was obviously purposely designed to be played as a tank and have their entire design and playstyle drastically altered to the point it is now the complete opposite is SCAM worthy and could result in a literal lawsuit.

Also I don't think they'd do that anyway because when they do 'revise' a warframe and have to make heftier changes they are always concerned about trying to keep the 'core concept' intact as much as possible so I do not think they will go down that route.

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17 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I wouldn’t call Baruuk a God rn. He’s the best he’s ever been, but there’s still parts of his kit that hold him back a little.

That's a bit of a separate discussion. He can be built to have no downtime on his 4. In this discussion, I find 100% of the time that people either know how to build him correctly, or they don't. The ones that don't find him pretty meh, which would be true with a bad build.

17 minutes ago, AbstractLemons said:

 

In response to the OP no the meta for the longest time up until recently was tank frames they were the most commonly used warframes I have seen in most content until the recent changes. 

I don't think this is entirely true. The meta was always a nuke/melee + tank meta, with strongest frames having 90+% DR, and either 1) nuking tilesets with abilities, or 2) Memestriking. Now, just take away the tank portion, especially with cheese gating (which I'm happy about don't get me wrong).

Point is, content was incredibly easy and frames that didn't require any "setup" time were always the most efficient. This is even moreso the case now, because many slower frames with excellent scaling (like Nidus for example) have no purpose now.

Also I'm not discussing what COULD work. Cuz all frames work. I'm simply talking about what works BEST (meta). Current meta is even more specific toward nuke frames that don't require any setup.

Edited by Ikyr0
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47 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

a broad sense about how design is unfocused and that many frames have fallen even further behind in the nuke meta with the recent changes.

A lot of that issue is that pure mindless damage reigns supreme in this grind based game, so damaging the most enemies with the most damage is ideal. 

My recommendation has repeatedly been to diversify combat through enemy specialization to fix the "one nuke to rule them all mentality".

  • Balance role diversity through enemy types -
    • Common, abundant enemies should be susceptible to AoE damage (from both frames and weapons) since that is the purpose of AoE in a hoard killing game. But other enemies should resist AoE damage.
    • There can be enemy types that put debuffs on players that have a long duration but can be removed by Warframe healing abilities (and health orbs created from Warframe abilities).
    • Tanky frames are almost exclusively self serving these days since most don't have much, if any threat manipulation. There could be some sort of enemy that bypasses a portion of player natural defenses, but are naturally taunted more towards the tanky frames while their defensive abilities are active (the defensive ability would ignore the enemy's ability to bypass defenses so they are actually protecting their allies).
    • There should be more enemies like Nox that are heavily damage resistant except when certain conditions are met (like how Nox has to have his helmet shot off first before he's squishy). This could be used to encourage all sorts of play styles:
      • Enemies resistant to all damage, except while under effect of cc.
      • Enemies only vulnerable to single target damage (from weapons or abilities)
      • Enemies only vulnerable to head shots.
      • Enemies only vulnerable to melee.
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1 minute ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

 

My recommendation has repeatedly been to diversify combat through enemy specialization to fix the "one nuke to rule them all mentality".

I really like these suggestions, but I don't think DE would ever implement something this extensive. I think the best they can offer are "dps checks" like Liches and Demolysts. Your suggestions are too big brain for DE imo. 

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2 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

I really like these suggestions, but I don't think DE would ever implement something this extensive. I think the best they can offer are "dps checks" like Liches and Demolysts. Your suggestions are too big brain for DE imo. 

Sadly these kind of fixes will be necessary to actually fix a lot of recurring problems with balance that come up every single update. And they would improve usefulness of each frame through out every level of content since they would serve specific purposes and not dominate every corner of the game content. 

I agree though, best not to hold our breath on this one. 

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I think one should worry less about what others are up to and just play what one likes. 

I've been playing a lot of Trinity Prime lately, mostly because I just like her. She's not really necessary or even particularly appropriate for much of day to day play, but she can get the job done--and I just like her. I can get away with this because time to kill ratios are so low. Ideally, she'd be there to support you when they're high, which they should be, relatively speaking. 

What this is leading to is that I'd like to see much less emphasis on the mindless AoE spam and more on actually shooting at stuff. The stuff that the game was originally about and what drew many of us to it to begin with. I realize a lot of controller users prefer spamming AoE attacks, but it's neither dynamic nor particularly fun. It makes some sense when facing swarming enemies, but it shouldn't trivialize other playstyles and dominate all enemy types. 

How one would go about this is mechanics and there are many ways to approach this (my inclination would be to cut AoE range hugely for starters). What matters is the philosophy; making support roles much more necessary for everyday play. 

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1 hour ago, Sloan441 said:

I think one should worry less about what others are up to and just play what one likes. 

you might be in the wrong thread my friend (thanks for the rest of your response though). It's very obvious that people can and should play what they want (iTs A fReE cOuNtRy). In this thread I'm trying to discuss where the meta is going. 

Edited by Ikyr0
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With the Sentients there won't be Dps meta.

Those little #*!%ers can adapt to damage and abilities. If you're a Mesa player you might be able to just press 4 but Saryn surely doesn't have the same effect on the Sentients.

This will depend on their level tho. But even a bunch of lvl 30 might be a bit of a pain to fight with the two Meta dps frames.

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While the AoE frames may be meta, they are just too freakin boring to play. I have a really hard time playing Saryn, Volt or Enox without wanting to fall asleep. I think the nukiest frames I go for atm would be Frost and Ember, with Rev as a third runner up due to his disco twirl. Frost I more use for the heavy armor reduction and CC while chopping them up with melee afterwards or nuking them with nukor. Ember is far more active in her gameplay compared to the SVE trio, shes actually fun to play because you mostly actually see your enemies.

Sadly the only way to get away from the mass nuke AoE meta is by nerfing those frames in some way. Line of Sight requirements would be a good start. Those frames are also the reason why we see more and more power immune enemies, which kinda makes the not so hot power based frames suffer even more, turning the game more into a buff bot simulator. Maybe if we could instead just focus on changing those frames we'll actually get less power immune enemies. Just look at the status rework, now DE are preparing to remove status immunity from liches for instance.

If they dont do something to change that nuke meta we'll soon just get content where buffers are wanted since the immunity doesnt stretch to them. Kinda like if all future content turned into just being about sentients. Then we'll get content based on that meta where everything has nullification effects instead, followed by only the most tanky frames and best weapons will be used. Then somewhere down the line we'll sit with operators throwing stones at the enemy, until DE decides to take away either the stones or the operator.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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3 hours ago, Ikyr0 said:

If we're going down the ARPG route (plentiful dumb enemies), then all frames need to be nukers and/or melee platforms. 

It would help a lot if there were more game modes that specifically encouraged precision; and if higher levels of regular game modes were more accessible and a little more rewarding.

I'd honestly hate it if all frames were homogenized the way you're suggesting, although I understand the reasoning given the game we actually have right now.

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DE if you don't mind some players constantly and instantly nuking whole maps up to level 100+ (i think it's quite clear you don't) please allow others to go AFK for the rest of the mission without repercussions. I know i can just randomly tap arrow keys every 2 minutes, but that's just silly. Thanks.

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Meta frames are sooooo boring for me. They make the game so easy. I really love Gara and Octavia, I fall asleep playing them though. 
I don’t think it matters where the META is going because in reality people should just play with what they find fun, don’t get worked up about it.

I play fun frames like Garuda and she isn’t bad by any means, people just don’t know how to build or play her.

In conclusion META doesn’t matter when you know how to build and play a frame. META is just the fastest and easiest, I think people should find frames they like and are fun to play.

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42 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

It would help a lot if there were more game modes that specifically encouraged precision; and if higher levels of regular game modes were more accessible and a little more rewarding.

I'd honestly hate it if all frames were homogenized the way you're suggesting, although I understand the reasoning given the game we actually have right now.

yeah, i generally agree with you. I think it's too much of a big brain move for DE to fundamentally change the combat mechanics. It seems the best they can do is give us DPS checkpoints like Demolysts and Liches. So in that light, I'm suggesting just make all frames good at nuking or melee, but in a different style. And then the game would fully feel like an ARPG (D3, PoE, etc). 

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5 minutes ago, agentlinder said:

I don’t think it matters where the META is going because in reality people should just play with what they find fun, don’t get worked up about it.

Again, I appreciate this sentiment. But for those of us who can't help but play the game the most efficiently, there are a lot of frames that are held back by the type of content we're receiving. 

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36 minutes ago, Ikyr0 said:

yeah, i generally agree with you. I think it's too much of a big brain move for DE to fundamentally change the combat mechanics. It seems the best they can do is give us DPS checkpoints like Demolysts and Liches. 

I wouldn't expect that either, but they can create new game modes based off existing mechanics.  Demolysts are one version of that, and they could certainly make something with some form of friendly fire beyond rad sorties, for example.

Do that, and revisit some existing things like headshots, single target weapon vs area weapon/ability balance, and high level content accessibility, and we've got a larger variety of rewarding, viable paths for people that want to take advantage of them.

And this is something that would have value even if they decided all frames should have closer to equivalent access to nuking, 

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the question is: what do you understand under content? all warframes have their uses. its not just clearing rooms. for example i like to chill with loki and explore lua. or inaros... i dont even use abilities and still can rez 3 people in arbitration, make def objectives immune to damage and clear lvl 150+ bombards without danger in 2-3 sec. there are a lot very good warframes.

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5 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

the question is: what do you understand under content? all warframes have their uses. its not just clearing rooms. for example i like to chill with loki and explore lua. or inaros... i dont even use abilities and still can rez 3 people in arbitration, make def objectives immune to damage and clear lvl 150+ bombards without danger in 2-3 sec. there are a lot very good warframes.

Funny that you don't realize that you just said that game is to easy that you can actually do that without a sweat and only what left is grind after that, because content is not existing, take for example new one Scarlet Spear that we gonna get, one mission and bunch of rewards, its a farming sim, do you find any difficulty in farming sim? CONTENT IS NOT FARM OR GRIND,grind should go with a content unnoticed...

 - Warframe don't really need rework of frames, no, didn't not needed, but since game going to direction of grind and efficiency nuking is logical way to go, makes everything faster, so fast, that teamplay is not important anymore, everything can be done solo...

 - if / wen they rework Nyx and Valkyr to be nuked frames and i have a feeling DE will do that ( because lot of people already crying for that ) i leave game for good

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vor 21 Minuten schrieb Miledude:

Funny that you don't realize that you just said that game is to easy that you can actually do that without a sweat and only what left is grind after that, because content is not existing, take for example new one Scarlet Spear that we gonna get, one mission and bunch of rewards, its a farming sim, do you find any difficulty in farming sim? CONTENT IS NOT FARM OR GRIND,grind should go with a content unnoticed...

 - Warframe don't really need rework of frames, no, didn't not needed, but since game going to direction of grind and efficiency nuking is logical way to go, makes everything faster, so fast, that teamplay is not important anymore, everything can be done solo...

 - if / wen they rework Nyx and Valkyr to be nuked frames and i have a feeling DE will do that ( because lot of people already crying for that ) i leave game for good

sure its easy if you have gear. or are you coming online to work? and this is how it should be! content is always there. but its nearly impossible to entertain everybody. warframe devs deliver very good updates and i cant remember when game crashed. updates have few bugs compared to other games. and there will be more content in future.

this all needs a looooooot of time: many formas, rare mods, warframes for specific situation, information from wiki etc.

i will not play this game if i need 4-8 hour raid like in old wow (+raid bottle near table) with SAME people from clan. and this all for a crappy chance to upgrade some pixels.

Edited by Battle.Mage
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I think overall this is an opportunity to add more enemies with high durability/unique abilities, or add them to existing ones. How many people could identify the differences between 2/3rds of all the Grineer enemies? They are all meatbags that die the same. Nuke frames can still take care of the trash, but more Nox/Nullifier/Eximus-type enemies (examples only, please not more ability-immune enemies) that require additional care/strategy to take care off. Give the non-nukers something to hold onto and become specialists in in sufficient quantity and frequency to make them important in all missions. 

As annoying as they can be, the unique enemies in the Vallis were step in the right direction from the Corpus side.

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1 hour ago, Battle.Mage said:

sure its easy if you have gear. or are you coming online to work?

i not sure i follow this one but i guess you mean that new players have hard time, if is that, well, every single one of us started from 0, now when i think about it, that's probably my favorite part of game, progress, meaning, you have something to look forward to do...

 

1 hour ago, Battle.Mage said:

and this is how it should be! content is always there. but its nearly impossible to entertain everybody.

question, so you are ok with a current content, meaning you are satisfied and have something to play, well how about people who don't have? 

Meaning its easy for them or they not like current content, let say for example pvp ( does not need to be pvp, perhaps end content or something else ) that didn't get many attention from DE , like raid you said that gonna last 8 hours, you don't like it, fine, nobody forcing you to play, but you already have a content, you said yourself, content is always there, just some people like it, some dont... i guess it should be fair to some other people get some love from DE as well and get some interesting content for them...

37 minutes ago, Celosi said:

As annoying as they can be, the unique enemies in the Vallis were step in the right direction from the Corpus side

i agree

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