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Give Warframe Abilities Enemy Level Multiplier Scaling abilities, now!

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Like with Vaubans 3:

Total Explosion Damage = Blast Damage × (1 + Ability Strength) × (1 + Dismantle Bonus) × Enemy Level Multiplier
Enemy Level Multiplier = ceil(Enemy Level ÷ 10).

Just give it to all other frames! Mags 4, Garas 1, Mesas 1, Chromas 1,  Ashs 1, and so on! All abilities that have a significant damage potion and no special scaling mechanic need this. I don't think it would make any frame imbalanced, it just makes abilities stop being useless at level 30 or so.

We can't wait for 2 reworks every ear. Ability strength scaling is broken.

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yeah. there are a lot weak abilities. even newbies cant use them properly. because they cant get enough energy.

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43 minutes ago, supernils said:

Like with Vaubans 3:

Total Explosion Damage = Blast Damage × (1 + Ability Strength) × (1 + Dismantle Bonus) × Enemy Level Multiplier
Enemy Level Multiplier = ceil(Enemy Level ÷ 10).

Just give it to all other frames! Mags 4, Garas 1, Mesas 1, Chromas 1,  Ashs 1, and so on! All abilities that have a significant damage potion and no special scaling mechanic need this. I don't think it would make any frame imbalanced, it just makes abilities stop being useless at level 30 or so.

We can't wait for 2 reworks every ear. Ability strength scaling is broken.

Garas vitrify isnt the dmg dealer. So that wont happen. 

It just does dmg when you buff splinter shield as a bonus. 

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Posted (edited)

That´s a terrible design because it´s not even scaling in the first place. You could as well remove enemy level altogther because there is no point when your damage scales passively with enemy levels.

Edited by Arcira
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if everything scales with enemy levels then why is there scaling levels to begin with. I don't see the point of doing it for every ability when generally you don't even really need to play much past 100 anyways.

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14 hours ago, supernils said:

-snip-

No, because...

13 hours ago, Arcira said:

That´s a terrible design because it´s not even scaling in the first place. You could as well remove enemy level altogther because there is no point when your damage scales passively with enemy levels.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said:

if everything scales with enemy levels then why is there scaling levels to begin with.

 

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On 2020-03-17 at 10:49 PM, PookieNumnums said:

Garas vitrify isnt the dmg dealer. So that wont happen. 

It just does dmg when you buff splinter shield as a bonus. 

I don't think an ability should exist solely to buff another ability. The synergy is on top, standalone shattered lash is pure damage. 4 useful abilities (3 in Garas case) don't make a Warframe OP, it makes it not broken

On 2020-03-17 at 10:54 PM, Arcira said:

That´s a terrible design because it´s not even scaling in the first place. You could as well remove enemy level altogther because there is no point when your damage scales passively with enemy levels.

the enemy level multiplier is

1. just one of several scaling factors, so it doesn't make the others obsolete

2. on top of all the other factors still does not provide a passive linear scaling

It's just exactly what is needed imo. I don't exactly understand what you're arguing for. Broken useless abilities?

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, supernils said:

the enemy level multiplier is

1. just one of several scaling factors, so it doesn't make the others obsolete

2. on top of all the other factors still does not provide a passive linear scaling

It's just exactly what is needed imo. I don't exactly understand what you're arguing for. Broken useless abilities?

Best case scenario you´d just add an pointless modifier. If abilities don´t deal enought damage you could either increase it or reduce defenses and achieve the exact same effect without additional code.

Worst case you actually negate the whole purpose of scaling in the first place.

Very simpified but currently it´s like this: "damage done = regular damage scaling - (Level scaling damage Reduction)"
But when you compensate for there DR with "+ (Level scaling damage Increase)"
you end up with "damage done = regular damage scaling - (Level scaling damage reduction) + (Level scaling damage Increase)" or in short: "damage done = regular damage scaling"

In terms of efficient math both cases are absolute nonsense. Aside from this a lot of abilities would break the game in ther current form or even worse encourage DE to add even more immunities.

Edited by Arcira
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said:

if everything scales with enemy levels then why is there scaling levels to begin with. I don't see the point of doing it for every ability when generally you don't even really need to play much past 100 anyways.

While they added those Abilities to Octavia, Revenant, Garuda, Vauban, Trinity, Grendel, and Equinox.

Edited by GPrime96
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12 hours ago, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said:

if everything scales with enemy levels then why is there scaling levels to begin with. I don't see the point of doing it for every ability when generally you don't even really need to play much past 100 anyways.

Because there's more than one type of damage calculation. We've got abilities, that range roughly from 100% to 200% damage output depending on your build, but we also have weapons. Those have multiplicative scalings that very, VERY quickly go completely overboard. About 120% bonus damage from element/status, x2 for the serration-like mods, x2 for multishot, then x2-5 from crits. 

Point is, level 100 enemies are currently paperweights against guns, and armed concrete slabs against abilities. There's several abilities that pretty much completely cease function after level 30, and those could do with assisted scaling. 

 

Either that, or we need to completely revamp Warframe modding.

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in general i'd like a system that allows players to work toward scaling with enemies depending on their level at the beginning of missions. we will eventually encounter more missions that start with levels beyond 100 and i cant help but to feel that the introduction of high level railjack missions has only now made scaling a concern. enemies scaling with triple digits felt optional before. now as the game's story progresses, we are getting missions that start with triple digits.

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On 2020-03-18 at 4:24 AM, Arcira said:

That´s a terrible design because it´s not even scaling in the first place. You could as well remove enemy level altogther because there is no point when your damage scales passively with enemy levels.

And what would be good game design in your opinion?

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, kevoisvevo said:

And what would be good game design in your opinion?

Since warframe is supposed to be a loot shooter mods and arcanes as well as an upgrading overhaul should be the way to go. Not only do warframes have much less space because they need to share there limited capacity with important utility and defense mods but also lack offensive scaling options in general.

Weapon: Damage, Crit Damage, Crit Chance, Fire rate, Multishot, Status

Warframe: Ability power ... and maybe castspeed but not really

Edited by Arcira

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22 hours ago, supernils said:

I don't think an ability should exist solely to buff another ability. The synergy is on top, standalone shattered lash is pure damage. 4 useful abilities (3 in Garas case) don't make a Warframe OP, it makes it not broken

3? You must not gara much. All of her abilities are good.  Inexperienced or unlearned tenno will try to convince you otherwise.  

I would chalk it up as one of warframes better uses of synergy.  

 

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On 2020-03-18 at 12:54 AM, Arcira said:

That´s a terrible design because it´s not even scaling in the first place. You could as well remove enemy level altogther because there is no point when your damage scales passively with enemy levels.

Honestly the best thing to happen, in my opinion, would be the removal of enemy levels. Rebalance the mods to static enemies and utilize the insane variety of enemies we have on tap to provide difficulty and challenge through enemy population diversity and density. 

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22 minutes ago, Lakais said:

Honestly the best thing to happen, in my opinion, would be the removal of enemy levels. Rebalance the mods to static enemies and utilize the insane variety of enemies we have on tap to provide difficulty and challenge through enemy population diversity and density. 

So you play a power fantasy game but don't want the power fantasy....interesting. 

I can understand the frustration of some players on the game not being what they want but somehow holding onto a dream that the core of this game is going to somehow radically shift is delusional thinking and probably based upon how long people hold these feelings definitely not healthy.  

 

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Lakais said:

Honestly the best thing to happen, in my opinion, would be the removal of enemy levels. Rebalance the mods to static enemies and utilize the insane variety of enemies we have on tap to provide difficulty and challenge through enemy population diversity and density. 

The problem is in alot of games (including warframe) is that the damage vs sustain scaling is very random. There are sweep spots when fighting enemies feels satisfying. But even a lot of shooter without any kind of progression system struggle sometimes.

I have yet to see anyone who gets it done and to be comletely honest I´m not even sure whether that´s even possible but if someone accidentally produces a working system I´m pretty sure it would be amazing. But yea you are completely right when you think a static system is much more easy to balance. Anyway the charackter progression is why I started to play warframe in the first place.

This whole more challange, enemy diversity, etc stuff is a completely different topic in my opinion. I doubt removing levels will increase the quality of combat in warframe because those are seperate issues with things like  AI or combat interactivity. I mean the best they can do is a random accuracy reduction when you run fast? Come on.

Edited by Arcira

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On 2020-03-18 at 10:34 PM, Arcira said:

Best case scenario you´d just add an pointless modifier. If abilities don´t deal enought damage you could either increase it or reduce defenses and achieve the exact same effect without additional code.

That's the point, you can't just increase ability strength. You slap your common mods on the frame at lvl30 and that's the one state your Warframe will be in forever. You could completely gimp your other abilities by using Nightmare mods, but that's bad design again. Your abilities now work fine against a very specific enemy level, for the others they're either overpowered or underpowered. The modifier is the opposite of "pointless". That's also why DE came up with it and used it in recent reworks. All I'm saying is that they need to add this to much more abilities. The modifier doesn't make the ability equally good for all levels, or even good without the need for modding. It's just a just enough step in the right direction imo.

 

On 2020-03-18 at 10:34 PM, Arcira said:

Aside from this a lot of abilities would break the game in ther current form or even worse encourage DE to add even more immunities.

I don't think so. As a matter a fact I'm also a stark proponent of nerfing overpowered Warframe abilities.

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13 hours ago, Chappie1975 said:

So you play a power fantasy game but don't want the power fantasy....interesting.

Warframe's current gameplay isn't a power fantasy. It's using a lawnmower. I'm not powerful because I can wipe out things that can't fight back.

13 hours ago, Chappie1975 said:

I can understand the frustration of some players on the game not being what they want but somehow holding onto a dream that the core of this game is going to somehow radically shift is delusional thinking and probably based upon how long people hold these feelings definitely not healthy.  

The thing is, the game's core already shifted. It used to be more of a challenge. And since the devs have expressed a desire to rein in the excessive parts of the arsenal in favour of a more consistent experience, it's not without precedent to expect the game to become a more balanced experience.

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Or they could just do true/ Shield & armor Bypassed damage instead of a convoluted calculation like that.

If you keep scaling infinitely there would be no reason to have higher enemy levels , it needs to be weaker at higher levels but still respectable.

With the recent armor changes DE has addressed one aspect hopefully they will address the others.

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14 hours ago, Lakais said:

Honestly the best thing to happen, in my opinion, would be the removal of enemy levels. Rebalance the mods to static enemies and utilize the insane variety of enemies we have on tap to provide difficulty and challenge through enemy population diversity and density. 

So basically destiny 2 but with mods

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17 hours ago, Chappie1975 said:

So you play a power fantasy game but don't want the power fantasy....interesting. 

I can understand the frustration of some players on the game not being what they want but somehow holding onto a dream that the core of this game is going to somehow radically shift is delusional thinking and probably based upon how long people hold these feelings definitely not healthy.  

 

It's a gradient thing. Being just plain uncontrollably and uncounterably powerful gets boring very very fast. Without level scaling, finding sweet spot is simpler and maintaining it is also easier. Hypothetically at least. At least it'd be far more predictable and manageable then the current system. That's also kind of the crux here: It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be better. 

At some point, "power fantasy" loses meaning when you can't fail in any meaningful sense. 

3 hours ago, 844448 said:

So basically destiny 2 but with mods

Yes. Say what you want about Destiny 2 as a whole, but combat there does not swing so widely from one extreme to the other. Even when at a relatively high power score, you can still be killed by fodder enemies if you make mistakes or overextend yourself while still being a nigh-unstoppable powerhouse of death and destruction. Warframe is much more enjoyable in terms of the mechanics and gameplay options. But the combat loop of Destiny 2 is more refined and stable, thus in general more fun. 

17 hours ago, Arcira said:

The problem is in alot of games (including warframe) is that the damage vs sustain scaling is very random. There are sweep spots when fighting enemies feels satisfying. But even a lot of shooter without any kind of progression system struggle sometimes.

I have yet to see anyone who gets it done and to be comletely honest I´m not even sure whether that´s even possible but if someone accidentally produces a working system I´m pretty sure it would be amazing. But yea you are completely right when you think a static system is much more easy to balance. Anyway the charackter progression is why I started to play warframe in the first place.

This whole more challange, enemy diversity, etc stuff is a completely different topic in my opinion. I doubt removing levels will increase the quality of combat in warframe because those are seperate issues with things like  AI or combat interactivity. I mean the best they can do is a random accuracy reduction when you run fast? Come on.

This kind of change would mean a complete overhaul of the way the game is played. In my mind's eye, this change would mean that the combat we are in would be much more "deliberate action" skill based. As such there would be less enemies on screen at any one time and to compensate, those enemies would have to be smarter and more dangerous through mechanics and not strictly stats. Meaning defeating enemies would be more about precision and deliberate use of appropriate abilities at the right time then indiscriminate nuking and getting the biggest possible number to pop on screen. 

The new Shield Gating is a very good example. Precision hits are rewarded more then just hosing enemies down. For armoured enemies the same can be done much like with the Ambulas where removal of armour plating and then shooting at the exposed weak points (or pre-existing ones) to deal the most effective damage is the way to go. And then enemies "evolving" to you over time through use of equipment like gas masks, extra armour, shield emitters or specialized weapon loadouts to more effectively counter our current loadouts is a more mechanics based "diversity" oriented difficulty progression. 

Would it actually work in Warframe is dependent on very many moving parts and this is why such a  change would have to be holistic; involving everything related to combat. 

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