Chappie Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Lakais said: It's a gradient thing. Being just plain uncontrollably and uncounterably powerful gets boring very very fast. Without level scaling, finding sweet spot is simpler and maintaining it is also easier. Hypothetically at least. At least it'd be far more predictable and manageable then the current system. That's also kind of the crux here: It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be better. At some point, "power fantasy" loses meaning when you can't fail in any meaningful sense. The only reason destiny "works" the way you describe though is because there really are no "choices"...at all. Destiny has as much choice as a Russian grocery store during height of communism. Second, the term "better" is loaded. The people who are advocating for this, AFAIK, are a very small percent of the player base. I play with a group of around 20 people and maybe 2 or 3 of us would be "fully decked". The rest are operating with non prime mods and rarely a potato..much a less a forma and they don't find the content "push over". Is the real issue that you want content to be in such a way as to validate your decision for sinking so much time into this game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakais Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 6 hours ago, Chappie1975 said: The only reason destiny "works" the way you describe though is because there really are no "choices"...at all. Destiny has as much choice as a Russian grocery store during height of communism. Second, the term "better" is loaded. The people who are advocating for this, AFAIK, are a very small percent of the player base. I play with a group of around 20 people and maybe 2 or 3 of us would be "fully decked". The rest are operating with non prime mods and rarely a potato..much a less a forma and they don't find the content "push over". Is the real issue that you want content to be in such a way as to validate your decision for sinking so much time into this game? What do you mean by choices? And of course the term is loaded because I provided my opinion. Neither you nor DE has to agree with it and it is clearly influenced by my personal preferences. And just because I said it, doesn't mean anything will happen because of it. But if I leave it unsaid, the chance of nothing happening is even greater. The issue I find with Warframe is not about fully loaded players in OP gear. Those things simply make the issues I see much clearer and easier to get across without relying on an entire essay. My issue is that the combat gameplay loop is perhaps too statistics based. I see elements in other games and thing that just maybe they might be put to good use. I would very much like to see enemies become less numerous but more dangerous. More dangerous by having small counters to us that we can account for on the fly and more dangerous by being tanky but in a way that lets us bypass that defense through mechanics based gameplay (aiming at or exposing weak spots for example) rather then just having a wildly swinging difficulty curve depending largely on a handful of mods that multiply our output obscenely to a point where it's more about having the most efficient way to not play the game. But to achieve that, out capabilities have to be curbed. And to do it in a way that makes sense, involves not only capping our power but that of our enemies. It's all interconnected and going part by part will not get us anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 On 2020-03-17 at 6:54 PM, Arcira said: That´s a terrible design because it´s not even scaling in the first place. You could as well remove enemy level altogther because there is no point when your damage scales passively with enemy levels. On 2020-03-18 at 6:38 AM, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said: if everything scales with enemy levels then why is there scaling levels to begin with. I don't see the point of doing it for every ability when generally you don't even really need to play much past 100 anyways. On 2020-03-18 at 8:23 AM, ShortCat said: No, because... So what other way would you balance warframe damage abilities? Right now we have pretty much just 2 kinds. Damage abilities that work past level 50, and those that don't. Of the ones that work, they're either exalted weapons you can mod in one form or another, abilities that scale on their own like Saryn and Equinox, or abilities that already do the thing you're calling bad game design. None of the straight damage abilities that don't scale are worth using unless they provide other utility, like CC or armor strip. Spectral Scream is the perfect example. It's worthless. Even to low level players it's worthless because they don't have the mods a higher level player has that lets the ability actually kill low level enemies reliably. So a high level can wipe super low level enemies with something like Spectral Scream, and a low level player can't, so it's worthless to literally anyone at any level of play. Enemy scaling would make it significantly less worthless, and probably even make it worthwhile. If you just gave these straight damage abilities a flat number buff they still wouldn't be balanced. Just like weapons demonstrate, anything built for sortie 3 and up turns anything under that into a total joke. If flat damage abilities did usable damage to high level enemies with a fairly standard build, then they would be strong enough to trivialize anything a low level player is doing with pretty much any build they throw together. Just like how Mesa instantly changes the game for any low level that buys her early. These abilities being where they are right now makes the abilities a total joke. Meanwhile, level scaling for Vauban and Grendel let you wipe trash mobs at almost any level while still requiring longer times to kill heavy pressure units at higher levels, and not outright killing very high level enemies, but still doing helpful damage on par with the rest of your loadout. The idea that abilities should either be fantastic late-game and trivialize early game, or should be total garbage at any point is what bad game design looks like. Not the fact that Grendel and Vauban are reliable at higher levels. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nslay Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) I would absolutely love level 200 Nullifiers having like 50m range bubbles. That would be hilarious! Imagine like level 9999 Nullifiers with like 300m range bubbles? How would Miter even help you there? How about those Arson Eximus units? Level 9999 Arson Eximus explosions could spread over 300m with ability scaling. EDIT: Oh, you mean Warframe abilities that scale in damage to enemy levels. Oh, shucks... that's different. Edited April 28, 2020 by nslay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrivaMain Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Even if you give all abilities damage scaled by ability level of those frames still can’t nukes entire room. It’s a quick band aid fix that can give a chance for the weak abilities to catch up in the damage department. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) And this is why I didn't why I want Vauban to be a damage dealing Warframe.... well... its not the exact reason but its one of them. As for other Warframes, first give me a reason to go beyond Rotation C, then give me Enemy Level Scaling Abilities. :) Edit: On 2020-03-20 at 5:18 PM, Lakais said: Yes. Say what you want about Destiny 2 as a whole, but combat there does not swing so widely from one extreme to the other. Even when at a relatively high power score, you can still be killed by fodder enemies if you make mistakes or overextend yourself while still being a nigh-unstoppable powerhouse of death and destruction. Warframe is much more enjoyable in terms of the mechanics and gameplay options. But the combat loop of Destiny 2 is more refined and stable, thus in general more fun. +1 Warframe Needs This... Badly !!!!! Edited April 28, 2020 by Lutesque Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, nslay said: I would absolutely love level 200 Nullifiers having like 50m range bubbles. That would be hilarious! Imagine like level 9999 Nullifiers with like 300m range bubbles? How would Miter even help you there? How about those Arson Eximus units? Level 9999 Arson Eximus explosions could spread over 300m with ability scaling. EDIT: Oh, you mean Warframe abilities that scale in damage to enemy levels. Oh, shucks... that's different. Just now, DrivaMain said: Even if you give all abilities damage scaled by ability level of those frames still can’t nukes entire room. It’s a quick band aid fix that can give a chance for the weak abilities to catch up in the damage department. This is talking about warframe abilities that scale damage in relation to the enemy level the abilities are being used on. Grendel and Vauban already have this on some of their abilities. OP is asking that it be moved to any straight damage ability because it's the sole reason those two frame's abilities do usable damage. For example: Level 3 Spectral Scream at base does 200 damage per second of your chosen element, effected by power strength AND Vex Armor's damage buff and it's still bad. Level 3 Flechette Orb does 300 Puncture damage per hit at base, is effected by power strength, Vauban's passive and his Overdriver mine and even without the last two modifying it, it still wrecks in pretty much any content, and it does this because it's modified by enemy level in its damage calculation. Similar base damage relative to enemy EHP pools and on totally opposite ends of the viability spectrum. What OP is asking for is what the devs have been citing every time they nerf us. Consistency. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrivaMain Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 On 2020-03-20 at 10:18 PM, Lakais said: Yes. Say what you want about Destiny 2 as a whole, but combat there does not swing so widely from one extreme to the other. Even when at a relatively high power score, you can still be killed by fodder enemies if you make mistakes or overextend yourself while still being a nigh-unstoppable powerhouse of death and destruction. Warframe is much more enjoyable in terms of the mechanics and gameplay options. But the combat loop of Destiny 2 is more refined and stable, thus in general more fun. It’s impossible to add anything challenging to Warframe where the casual majority will cry to make it easier every time a challenge is added and DE listens to them. I have accept the fact this game is for casuals not masochists or players who got E-Sport level of game sense or aim. If you want to enjoy Destiny like combat then play Destiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 28 minutes ago, nslay said: I would absolutely love level 200 Nullifiers having like 50m range bubbles. That would be hilarious! Imagine like level 9999 Nullifiers with like 300m range bubbles? How would Miter even help you there? How about those Arson Eximus units? Level 9999 Arson Eximus explosions could spread over 300m with ability scaling. EDIT: Oh, you mean Warframe abilities that scale in damage to enemy levels. Oh, shucks... that's different. But since you brought it up... The thing that's really annoying about the Miter and Nullifying Justice (Or whatever its called) is The Actual Blade Ricochets off the Bubble rather than Passing Straight Through it. Its Extremely annoying. But then again what did we expect... they are Nullifiers. Their purpose is to be annoying. I never had a chance to Try out my Mutalist Cernos on them... Arrows Embed themselves on the bubble rather than Flying off and I never had a chance to test how that affects that Specific Bow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridian Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) So we need the game to be even easier? Half the frames won't require even basic modding, stick hp on everything and call it. 2 birds 1 stone. % damage based on multiplier is the lazy way out in too many games. Little QOL changes would do wonders, as well as be more interesting, than just adding another number. E.G.: Messa's 1 - deals damage (both weapon and ability) in N meter radius of the target, scaling with range. Nekros' 1 - if 4 is active, soul punch converts the target into a shadow, if the present number of shadows is less than the max possible. Ash's 1 - bounce to other targets N times, scaling with str or duration, can hit the same target multiple times Ember's 1 - if cast when 2 is at 75 or lower, Ember "does't have the heat to ignite it" releasing only a "flamable liquid", stunning enemies in a frontal cone, increasing fire damage by N and casting speed for N sec by 50%. Chroma' 1 - for every target killed while under it's effect or a maching status, damage is increased by N untill canceled, scaling with strength And so on and so on... it would still be power creep, but at least not just a boring number increase. P.s. Gara's 1 is crazy enough as it is. Edited April 28, 2020 by Ver1dian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ver1dian said: So we need the game to be even easier? Its already Easy... for Specific Frames... atleast this allows some of the Weaker Warframe's to join the Party. 4 minutes ago, Ver1dian said: Half the frames won't require even basic modding, stick hp on everything and call it. 2 birds 1 stone. This is good for new players who either don't know how the Modding Works or just don't have the right mods at the right rank... 6 minutes ago, Ver1dian said: Little QOL changes would do wonders, as well as be more interesting, than just adding another number. E.G.: Messa's 1 - deals damage in N meter radius of the target, scaling with range. Nekros' 1 - if 4 is active, soul punch converts the target into a shadow Ash's 1 - bounce to other targets N times, scaling with str or duration, can hit the same target multiple times Ember's 1 - if cast when 2 is at 75 or lower, Ember "does't have the heat to ignite it" releasing only a "flamable liquid", stunning enemies in a frontal cone, increasing fire damage by N and casting speed for N sec by 50%. Chroma' 1 - for every target killed while under it's effect damage is increased by N, scaling with strength And so on and so on... it would still be power creep, but at least not just a boring number increase. +1 6 minutes ago, Ver1dian said: P.s. Gara's 1 is crazy enough as it is. Really ? Seems just Okay to me... Its not as Strong as Khora's since Gara's doesn't Crit. Is it atleast Affected by The Combo Counter ? because That would change alot !!! Okay maybe not alot but a decent amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrivaMain Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, Ver1dian said: Chroma' 1 - for every target killed while under it's effect damage is increased by N, scaling with strength Useless, base damage is too low to even have a chance getting a kill in a reasonable time. It’s even worse with a squad of nukes where they basically steal your kill every time. It could work if spectral scream works like ember’s fireball to finish enemies off. 9 minutes ago, Ver1dian said: Messa's 1 - deals damage in N meter radius of the target, scaling with range. Mesa’s ballistic battery is capped and it only has 1 charge. So not very useful and practical. What the OP asking is a quick fix. DE is VERY SLOW on reworking Warframes (they only rework 3-4 frames per year). So this fix will do wonders to help the non meta frames to catchup without needing any major rework. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridian Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Lutesque said: Its already Easy... for Specific Frames... atleast this allows some of the Weaker Warframe's to join the Party. This is good for new players who either don't know how the Modding Works or just don't have the right mods at the right rank... I don't disagree that some abilities and even worse, frames like Mag need some attention. My concern is that adding scaling damage would reduce the value of strength mods, which in turn would be replaced by more health mods, which would cause more problems than it would solve as far as dificulty goes. As for new players, this should be addressed by the "new player experience", which is unfortunately non-existant. 42 minutes ago, Lutesque said: Really ? Seems just Okay to me... Its not as Strong as Khora's since Gara's doesn't Crit. Is it atleast Affected by The Combo Counter ? because That would change alot !!! Okay maybe not alot but a decent amount. For what it's supposed to be, it's fairly strong. Not affected by combo, but it still does ~30k with a proper stat stick. Not close to Khora's damage but still 1shots almost anything. + Khora's 1 is her main damage, while Gara's is her 3. Edited April 29, 2020 by Ver1dian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ver1dian said: My concern is that adding scaling damage would reduce the value of strength mods, which in turn would be replaced by more health mods, which would cause more problems than it would solve as far as dificulty goes. Doesn't need to be Difficult... it just needs to be fun... and hey... I like more Health... Could be fun for Loki. 4 minutes ago, Ver1dian said: For what it's supposed to be, it's fairly strong. Not affected by combo, but it still does ~30k with a proper stat stick. Mine only does 18K 😞 But then again I'm using a Skana (With the Augment) + Riven as my Stick... I heard the Heat Dagger is the Way to go for Gara Specifically since Its got the Highest Riven Disposition of all Melee Weapons (This was many months ago). 7 minutes ago, Ver1dian said: + Khora's 1 is her main damage, while Gara's is her 3. Really ? How ? I thought Gara's 3 was her worst Ability. Thats the one with The Mirror's right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSG501 Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Been complaining about DE's lack of consistency on abilities for ages.... one new frame we get fixed damage which basically falls off at high end, then the next one comes out with scaling damage which can work at all levels, then they change their minds again.... It's about time they made their minds up if they want to go with scaling abilities or fixed damage output because this one difference in approach can make an ability (or the entire frame) useful or nor in a lot of cases. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridian Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 (edited) 48 minutes ago, DrivaMain said: Useless, base damage is too low to even have a chance getting a kill in a reasonable time. It’s even worse with a squad of nukes where they basically steal your kill every time. It could work if spectral scream works like ember’s fireball to finish enemies off. Mesa’s ballistic battery is capped and it only has 1 charge. So not very useful and practical. I was giving examples, but since we are nitpicking. While under it's effect doesn't mean by it. 1 charge of a hit of exergis or tigris on a 20+ m radius might not be as practical as dealing twice the damage to the target you already 1shot, but might give an alternative to 4 and afk. Regardless a multiplier won't fix the ability. Here's another 1, if the target dies from the shot, the bonus is kept and multiplied x1.5 each time. Would promote some aiming for the gunslinger for a change. 48 minutes ago, DrivaMain said: What the OP asking is a quick fix. DE is VERY SLOW on reworking Warframes (they only rework 3-4 frames per year). So this fix will do wonders to help the non meta frames to catchup without needing any major rework. He's asking for such scaling to be universal to all abilities. There are frames, which would emulate the recient basmu bug by design if this happens. This fix won't fix much when the list of unusable frames is currently not very large. I'd go even further to claim, that currently the only 4 uncomfortable for practical use frames are Mag, Hydroid, Nyx and Banshee. Of those, only Mag will see some improvement, the others have a deeper issue that a number won't solve. As for the other abilities it will be a straight buff to some frames. Let shattered lash scale and Gara's entire kit will 1shot everyting. Ash's 1 scaling? Some efficiency an enery pad and it's an invite for being almost afk Edited April 29, 2020 by Ver1dian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridian Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Lutesque said: Doesn't need to be Difficult... it just needs to be fun... and hey... I like more Health... Could be fun for Loki. Mine only does 18K 😞 But then again I'm using a Skana (With the Augment) + Riven as my Stick... I heard the Heat Dagger is the Way to go for Gara Specifically since Its got the Highest Riven Disposition of all Melee Weapons (This was many months ago). Really ? How ? I thought Gara's 3 was her worst Ability. Thats the one with The Mirror's right ? Well im afraid if it becomes too easy it might not be fun, but that's subjective. Yeah, I've got a heat dagger with a riven with only + various damages and a useless neg. I confused her 3 with 2, my bad. Often do that in actual gameplay and someone up there must love me, because I have yet to die in arbis with her, but that feeling when I'm in the middle of a group and there's no buff icon is priceless 😄. Edited April 29, 2020 by Ver1dian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 10 minutes ago, LSG501 said: Been complaining about DE's lack of consistency on abilities for ages.... one new frame we get fixed damage which basically falls off at high end, then the next one comes out with scaling damage which can work at all levels, then they change their minds again.... Well its been mentioned that Warframes are not all created by the same Teams all the Time so... yeah... thats probably where the inconsistency comes from and why Pablo is considered our Lord and Savior. 3 minutes ago, Ver1dian said: Well im afraid if it becomes too easy it might not be fun, but that's subjective What if its already not fun ? Making it easier can Alleviate some of the Frustration, which is what the Sentient Bosses (Except the Ropalolyst) are like for me... Its weird for a game to put players in this position. 6 minutes ago, Ver1dian said: I confused her 3 with 2, my bad. Often do that in actual gameplay and someone up there must love me, because I have yet to die in arbis with her, but that feeling when I'm in the middle of a group and there's no buff icon is priceless 😄. I died a couple times with her... once was when I got Overwhelmed and Careless trying to take out a Drone... and another time or two times was when I kept trying to save someone else who was dying alot (They didn't realise how Mesa's Shatter Shield works)... man those Corpus Grunts really hurt... granted I was carrying 3 out of 4 Resurrection Tokens, but still.... Ouch !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridian Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, Lutesque said: What if its already not fun ? Making it easier can Alleviate some of the Frustration, which is what the Sentient Bosses (Except the Ropalolyst) are like for me... Its weird for a game to put players in this position. Tbh, after a looong time playing different online games, I've reached the conclusion that everything becomes frustraiting when you grind it long enough. If that's the case, best do some other activity, if the entire game feels like this, it's not the end of the world there are others. 5 minutes ago, Lutesque said: I died a couple times with her... once was when I got Overwhelmed and Careless trying to take out a Drone... and another time or two times was when I kept trying to save someone else who was dying alot (They didn't realise how Mesa's Shatter Shield works)... man those Corpus Grunts really hurt... granted I was carrying 3 out of 4 Resurrection Tokens, but still.... Ouch !!! Oh, I avoid corpus arbis like the plauge, no matter how much you try, there's this 1 nullifier right behind the door you're about to go through and that shatter shield/halo/war cry/splinter storm..etc is gone. Or try to use a caster frame and 50% of mobs are immune because of drones and 50% because of nulls. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 7 minutes ago, Ver1dian said: Oh, I avoid corpus arbis like the plauge, no matter how much you try, there's this 1 nullifier right behind the door you're about to go through and that shatter shield/halo/war cry/splinter storm..etc is gone. Or try to use a caster frame and 50% of mobs are immune because of drones and 50% because of nulls. Don't forget about those Sneaky Nullifiers that drop in from Above (Happens alot in defense)... Those are a pain in the ass... If I'm in a Group we usually have one person on lookout Duty Specifically for Nullifiers.... and the Arbi Drones since they can Hide inside the Nullifier Bubble... Double Immunity !!! :O !!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrivaMain Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Ver1dian said: He's asking for such scaling to be universal to all abilities. DE already has the formula. They can just copy paste it to the ability damage calculation. Of course, you gotta watch out for bugs. But it’s quicker than having to go through Design Team to add unique interactions that may take time. Only use it for non meta abilities. The meta ones already has a form of damage scaling by damage ramp up or they deal percentage damage. Edited April 29, 2020 by DrivaMain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevoisvevo Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 On 2020-03-18 at 4:24 AM, Arcira said: That´s a terrible design because it´s not even scaling in the first place. You could as well remove enemy level altogther because there is no point when your damage scales passively with enemy levels. Cries in octavia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galuf Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 (edited) There are few abilities that scale extremly late in the game atm, allowing you to obliterate packs swiftly and at will with spell everywhere until big endless stuff, including arbitrations(starts not working properly at a point ^^) and sorties. However these scale through personnal investment(lots of mods, formas, rivens,...). The big issues with ability having scalling is that it may introduce a gameplay reproduction, you don't want a situation where a setup works exactly the same at every level. Enemy scalling should impact big time your builds and your gameplay. On Vauban it is kind of like that, yes his skills scale with level but it is disjointed, meaning it will get outscalled anyway at a point... Gameplay wise having Vauban skills scalling a bit is fluffy but wasn't even mandatory imho, everybody know that arbitrary nukes start falling off at a point, it feels a bit smoother for him and that's it. Edited April 29, 2020 by Galuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 On 2020-03-17 at 10:54 PM, Arcira said: That´s a terrible design because it´s not even scaling in the first place. You could as well remove enemy level altogther because there is no point when your damage scales passively with enemy levels. Exactly. It's just asking for a point and shoot buff. On 2020-03-18 at 8:38 PM, supernils said: I don't think an ability should exist solely to buff another ability. The synergy is on top, standalone shattered lash is pure damage. 4 useful abilities (3 in Garas case) don't make a Warframe OP, it makes it not broken It doesnt exist solely to buff.....just like Khoras Whip.....its based off your Melee mods.... I have a riven with 300+ melee damage and both khoras and garas one WRECK already! Read, people, read a friggin wiki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 On 2020-03-19 at 1:26 PM, Lakais said: Honestly the best thing to happen, in my opinion, would be the removal of enemy levels. Rebalance the mods to static enemies and utilize the insane variety of enemies we have on tap to provide difficulty and challenge through enemy population diversity and density. Are you listening to yourself? "Make everything hit for 1 point of damage, but sometimes add a lot of enemies, and sometimes add a small amount of enemies." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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