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[DE]Bear

2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh: Part 3!

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I'm concerned by the lack of changes to Viral.  Currently, it is nigh impossible for any elemental combination to come close to Viral/Heat or Viral/Slash, and even Viral by itself excels far past the other elements in most situations.  A straightforward damage multiplier to health (something every enemy has, and even shielded enemies usually have large quantities of) is a very strong effect, even in a low amount, and needs to be balanced as such.  Buffing other elements won't be meaningful until we stop having one element that stands so far above the rest that the others are largely irrelevant.  Weapon build diversity is now dead or nearly dead.  And for those of us who like weapon build diversity, that makes the game itself less appealing.  Which is worse than the temporary backlash of a nerf.  Better to nerf it now than wait until the playerbase has come to rely on the current unbalanced state of Viral and will have a stronger reaction if it gets nerfed.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

 

 If you're removing its ability to do damage, then... why are you heavily nerfing its CC as well? Time spent in Operator form is time spent not doing damage in your frame, and a 4-second CC within 15m really isn't worth this time if it's not at least spammable.

If Lockdown must be nerfed to 2 tethers per player, then the tether duration should be significantly increased to compensate. 

This

Edited by (XB1)YoungGunn82
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3 hours ago, TheLordOmega2 said:

so that's a nerf, then?

I just tested it, it's not a nerf. It's actually a buff. 

At the moment, Scatter Justice provides a flat 20% additive. But that gets split up between its 5 base multishot, making it actually only give 4% status chance.

 

Having it as a multiplicative 90% will end up giving it a little over 14% status chance per pellet

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1 minute ago, Sickle_Slayer said:

I just tested it, it's not a nerf. It's actually a buff. 

At the moment, Scatter Justice provides a flat 20% additive. But that gets split up between its 5 base multishot, making it actually only give 4% status chance.

 

Having it as a multiplicative 90% will end up giving it a little over 14% status chance per pellet

Technicalities. It's god awful and you can't deny that.

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Posted (edited)

Impact Damage:
No ragdolling, but a big stagger/stun: Good, great even, but this is just removing the bad, it's still not a good status.
Parazon Increase: Nobody cares, sure, I guess.

Gas:
Still doesn't sound like it will be usable, while it's still better than Impact/Puncture/Blast/Cold/Magnetic/Electric, it's not even close to
as good as the good ones. (And while it's proc is better than Rad/Corrosive, those have good resistance lineups, so they'll still see more use.)

Status Chance Mods:
Hammer Shot: Okay, may see a bit more use on a few niche setups.
Shattering Justice: Still not nearly enough to get Sobek seeing use again.
Stunning Speed: Still probably won't see any use, but better is better.

Kuva Lich Changes:
Heat proc removing half armor is really the only thing that matters here, but this is nice, I suppose.
Radiation's proc effect on bosses is a bad joke, but that's okay I guess because it's resistance spread is decent.

Foundry Crafting Time Change:
Welcome! This is great, 23 hours doesn't change much in terms of supply but is way less annoying for people on a time schedule.

Magus Lockdown:
Damage Removal: Probably necessary, there's no reason all frames should have infinite scaling damage at all times.
Mine Limit: Well you killed it, it's now useless, and the CC was very nice to have, and not broken as it didn't work on bosses, rip,
as is often, you take something that might have needed a nerf or tweak and just grind it into dust hamfistedly.

Grendel:
Selecting Nourish: This is good.
Max Duration: While I understand the reasons, this seems kinda like a weird exception and should be a more systematic
rather than specific change, seems like other similar situations will arise in the future.
Grenades: Ok that's fun.

Titania:
Passive Change: Sounds positive.
Blink: Sounds great.
 

Rakta Dark Dagger:
This was a neat and fun interaction, due to having to use a Dark Dagger and the very limited time on Shield Gating, I don't believe this nerf was needed, but at least you did it quick rather than waiting for everyone to devote time into the weapon and leaving it that way for years.

Scarlet Spear:
I look forward to it, though I hope a lot of Arcanes get another look at first.

Edited by Sylonus

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4 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Increased Hammer Shot Status Chance from 40% to 80%.

While im not complaining, im just wondering why a dual stat mod will be made to not mach the others. I expected it to be 60% like how the elemental mods work (the 60/60 ones) with reduced damage and status because you have 2 stats together (I assumed the status will be considered reduced with all the new changes) or does this mean there are stronger status mods coming out?

 

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4 hours ago, Ikusi_Prime said:

Have you heard of Rage?

Nobody should have to run a specific mod to make a warframe tolerable. That goes against the entire point of player choice, which is a main theme of this game.

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  • Puncture, Cold, Electric, Blast, and (still) Radiation, all lack damage potential in their procs. What's being done to improve them?
  • Since the range of Gas procs are getting buffed, what about Electric and Blast?
  • With the upcoming parazon finisher changes to Impact damage, instead of increasing the chance of a parazon finisher prompt appearing, can it be changed to increase the health threshold where a prompt can appear? Even if it's guaranteed to see a prompt at X% of health, no one will perform a finisher if X remains as low as it is right now.
  • 15 seconds is a bit punishing for a cooldown on Arcane Energize. Can it be reduced to 10 seconds, or at least have the cooldown reduce via ranking up Energize?
  • Arcane Grace now only activates upon health damage. Can this be reverted to all damage, like how it was before? Inaros may remain unaffected. Inaros may use it best. But Inaros is not the only one who uses Grace.
  • Could the Sentience part of Excalibur Umbra's passive get removed? He's just been a hinderance since release in virtually every scenario(health punished from Umbra taking damage, loss of Exalted Blade and combo counter, loss of all buffs from abilities and aura mods, uncontrollable AI, and so many bugs). Lore is great, but it shouldn't be an excuse for frustrating gameplay!
  • Volt's 4 performs as an expanding wave just like Nova's 4 and Mag's 3, but its range scales off of Range instead of Duration, vs Nova and Mag scaling off of Duration. Can his 4 be changed to Duration?
  • Can you add a push mechanic to Mag's 1 so that it becomes Push & Pull? To really help with the "crowd control and enemy manipulation" bit she's themed to be.
  • Why is the math to certain status chance mods including Chromatic Blade, Reactice Storm, and Shattering Justice, getting unnecessarily punished with nerfs while disguising their changes to appear as buffs? Especially considering the weapons those mods went on were already becoming comparatively weaker as time went on. Will this "disguised nerf" be applied to other rewarding mods in the furture?
  • Aura Forma already costs an arm, a leg, and the souls of our unborn grandchildren, and they're arguably not worth crafting/using because of this. Considering that it will have even less usefulness than Aura Forma, can this mistake please be avoided with the upcoming release of Stance Forma?
  • When are the changes to Magus Lockdown getting reverted because as the changes stand right, they are ridiculously punishing to everyone/anyone who's put in the 210k standing worth of work to enjoy the only viable magus arcane in the game. Instead of nerfing everything fun, can the trash get some attention to become relevant?
  • The Rakta Dark Dagger isn't even a strong weapon compared to other melee weapons but it was good BECAUSE its shield restoration affect was unrestricted. Its nerf was unnecessary, please revert it.
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1 minute ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

Nobody should have to run a specific mod to make a warframe tolerable. That goes against the entire point of player choice, which is a main theme of this game.

Hallelujah

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All I really want to add is that I really wish they were clearer as to the ability (or not) to solo in Scarlet Spear, the article on the front page doesn't really tell us anything and the little blurb regarding the event here doesn't either. I'm not even going to complain if it is squad-only. I, as largely a solo player, just want to know if I should care about Scarlet Spear or not. 

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4 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

we have reduced the build time for Forma, Orokin Catalysts, Orokin Reactors, and Exilus Adaptors to 23 hours

😮
=D
\(^o^)/

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4 minutes ago, Yun_Woo-Seok said:
  • Puncture, Cold, Electric, Blast, and (still) Radiation, all lack damage potential in their procs. What's being done to improve them?
  • Since the range of Gas procs are getting buffed, what about Electric and Blast?
  • With the upcoming parazon finisher changes to Impact damage, instead of increasing the chance of a parazon finisher prompt appearing, can it be changed to increase the health threshold where a prompt can appear? Even if it's guaranteed to see a prompt at X% of health, no one will perform a finisher if X remains as low as it is right now.
  • 15 seconds is a bit punishing for a cooldown on Arcane Energize. Can it be reduced to 10 seconds, or at least have the cooldown reduce via ranking up Energize?
  • Arcane Grace now only activates upon health damage. Can this be reverted to all damage, like how it was before? Inaros may remain unaffected. Inaros may use it best. But Inaros is not the only one who uses Grace.
  • Could the Sentience part of Excalibur Umbra's passive get removed? He's just been a hinderance since release in virtually every scenario(health punished from Umbra taking damage, loss of Exalted Blade and combo counter, loss of all buffs from abilities and aura mods, uncontrollable AI, and so many bugs). Lore is great, but it shouldn't be an excuse for frustrating gameplay!
  • Volt's 4 performs as an expanding wave just like Nova's 4 and Mag's 3, but its range scales off of Range instead of Duration, vs Nova and Mag scaling off of Duration. Can his 4 be changed to Duration?
  • Can you add a push mechanic to Mag's 1 so that it becomes Push & Pull? To really help with the "crowd control and enemy manipulation" bit she's themed to be.
  • Why is the math to certain status chance mods including Chromatic Blade, Reactice Storm, and Shattering Justice, getting unnecessarily punished with nerfs while disguising their changes to appear as buffs? Especially considering the weapons those mods went on were already becoming comparatively weaker as time went on. Will this "disguised nerf" be applied to other rewarding mods in the furture?
  • Aura Forma already costs an arm, a leg, and the souls of our unborn grandchildren, and they're arguably not worth crafting/using because of this. Considering that it will have even less usefulness than Aura Forma, can this mistake please be avoided with the upcoming release of Stance Forma?
  • When are the changes to Magus Lockdown getting reverted because as the changes stand right, they are ridiculously punishing to everyone/anyone who's put in the 210k standing worth of work to enjoy the only viable magus arcane in the game. Instead of nerfing everything fun, can the trash get some attention to become relevant?
  • The Rakta Dark Dagger isn't even a strong weapon compared to other melee weapons but it was good BECAUSE its shield restoration affect was unrestricted. Its nerf was unnecessary, please revert it.

I agree with everything you said, possibly except for the rakta dd part.

And Volt's 4 matching Nova's 4 and Mag's 3, being its range scales with duration, will be a great improvement for every Volt player, as it should be obvious why if you play Volt. It will make building so much easier, allowing us to increase the benefits of our 2, while decreasing the application to allies, which most of them dislike anyway.

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NOOOOOO dont change titania passive, it was already thematically correct. healing is great but getting shot significantly more often just doesnt jive. plus, the healing wont be as much as you seem to assume, as titania are you constantly spamming your stuff? no.. and the whole 'nearby allies' thing, we all know thats a rather short range.

but it cant be a long range, as that'd be OP. leave the healing to the healers, imo..

keep the rest but change the passive back to the accuracy related and she'd be worth picking up for most people, i'd say =D

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3 minutes ago, Uthael said:

😮
=D
\(^o^)/

Agreed, but with the amount of things we need to forma, and the amount of time we do, 23 hours is obscenely excessive. That may have made sense in the game's early years, where there were less weapons and weapons required less forma to be useful, but nowadays it's nothing but a ploy to get you to buy that 35p 3 pack, while the 20p single pack is only there to sugarcoat the obscene price of the 35p 3 pack.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:
  • Increased Hammer Shot Status Chance from 40% to 80%.
  • Increased Shattering Justice Status Chance from 20% to 90%. In addition, this buff has been changed from an additive chance to a multiplicative chance.
  • Increased Stunning Speed Status Chance from 10% to 30%.

{My speculative feedback, because I haven't played with any of these changes yet}

Pretty hype for hammer shot, that mod has always been a favourite of mine.

Shattering Justice, looking at it now (in 27.2.2) applies in a bizarre way. It seems to be 20% / 5 per projectile, flat. I was kind of expecting +20% flat to each projectile, however, which would be stronger than this change, and roughly equivalent to +120% by the new formula.

[OLD] 16.2% + (20% / 5) = 20.2%

[NEW] 16.2% * (1 + 90%) = 30.78%

[Old Expected] 16.2% + 20% = 36.2%

Small gripe, and am still of the opinion that shotguns need some other compensation for their status nerfs. They've lost a lot of status damage relative to other weapons, so maybe adjustments to their base-damage will bring them back up.

4 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

There has been a lot of feedback over Gas damage, and how it seemed lacking in comparison to other Status effects. This change will hopefully give Gas a bit more viability, and make it react in a way that is thematically appropriate.

Gas scaling was straight up not working, and that doesn't seem to be acknowledged as a bug, but I hope it has been restored to it's exponential formula with or without these additional changes, that's all it needs. The effect not only did pitifully scaling damage, but in more ways than one is objectively weaker than the new electric, which is properly scaling like before.

This new (very) large area effect may also drive AoE weapons to extinction. I can now equip some status sniper or rifle and generate an enormous, lingering, area of effect with just a few shots. I feel that this presents two choices for DE to curb that result:

The popular choice: Remove AoE fall-off.

The unpopular choice: Add fall-off to gas AoE.

Personally I'd like to see a complete reversal of the AoE changes, returning self-damage. The price we paid was two steps back for one step forward. 

4 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

No Status Effect will exceed a maximum of 4 stacks, with the exception of Impact which can stack up to 6 times. There is a cooldown on status for Liches, however, to prevent stun-locking them in place and removing the challenge with Status Weapons.

If the stack limit applies to status damage effects, that raises a large concern for co-operative play. As we know, Status damage per stack scales with the base damage of a single instance of damage. The largest sources of status damage are melee heavy attacks, which must be carefully applied without letting weaker effects occupy the stacks within the limit.

How about: No Status Effect will exceed a maximum of 3 stacks per player.

This encourages squads to work together to stack effects, while also not letting players occupy stacks limits for damage status effects which may lead to frustration.

A compromise alternative to not neuter solo-player potential: Limit stacks to 4 with 1 player, 7 with 2 players, 9 with 3 players, 10 with 4 players. That works out to +3/+2/+1, where the 4th player has the smallest, but maximal impact. That would technically work where, per-person, each player has 4 status "slots" on every enemy per effect. If 1 other player has status effects on a target, your last (overlapping) 3 effects with apply. For the 3rd player, their last 2 effects apply. Both those players must sustain 4 effects individually for the last effects to stack.

I'm aware my numbers destroy the status ceiling that looks intended, so dial them down as seen fit. It is merely a proposition to incentivise co-operation, which everyone likes.

I expect the cooldown to just apply to the crowd-controlling effect components, and not the entire slot for an effect to be applied, which would create another headache. For now I'm skeptical without knowing the rules.

4 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Magus Lockdown has a reputation for being the CC and Damage meta, and after some review, it is not hard to see why. There are cases where Magus Lockdown has wiped entire waves of Elite Sanctuary Onslaught without the need for a weapon or a Warframe power and that is not what we had in mind for the design of this.

No kidding. This was inevitable, and I felt that from the instant I first used this arcane. Absurdly strong with no place for that amount of damage to exist in the game. The game really needs an icefrog-level balance pass. It would be incredibly challenging, since there are like 300 weapons x 3 viable builds x ~12 different stats x 100's of enemies, but hitting one chunk or weapon class at a time is tolling for us as players, usually accompanied by a feeling of unfairness. "Why is this weapon suddenly not allowed to be so powerful, but this other egregious offender is still allowed to exist!" and such.

A solution to that, which I love that we are already seeing in this doc but also before, are design explanations and rationale behind choices. This is the number 1 biggest tool (in my opinion, but also personally) to curb those negative community feelings.

4 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Grendel has been out in the wild for some time now, and with the player feedback, we have made the following changes to the hungriest Warframe:

Hungry doesn't describe the half of it. If you'll accept my feedback for that frame right here: 

  • This frame is incredibly energy hungry. Having two channeling skills, and two others that depend on his channeled feasting, make him very difficult to manage. Max efficiency feels required to get anything done, as the only energy he generally gets to use are the energy orbs from things he eats.
    • Would be nice to be able to work with corpses at no channeled energy cost. Most people don't eat things alive.
    • Half expecting an energy-oriented augment to solve his problems, as it did with Gara.
  • All skills rely on enemies, which writes him off of many boss fights and other general situations. 
  • Eating enemies at range has an extremely narrow cone, demanding tedious accuracy when eating many enemies from afar. This could be much larger, in the realm of 30+ degrees.

Edit: People mention Rage, which solves many of his issues. I don't like relying on it and it's gameplay, but it seems to be immensely effective.

 

Always a pleasure to read the iterations, keep them coming!

Edited by VhwatGoes
Rage Edit
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@[DE]Bear Impact is a Stagger, a Heavy Stagger on 5 Procs and +10% Parazon Chance on Proc.
Is the Maximum Amount of Impact Procs 5 for up to 55% Parazon Chance or 10 for up to 100% guaranteed Parazon Chance?

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1 minute ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

Agreed, but with the amount of things we need to forma, and the amount of time we do, 23 hours is obscenely excessive. That may have made sense in the game's early years, where there were less weapons and weapons required less forma to be useful, but nowadays it's nothing but a ploy to get you to buy that 35p 3 pack, while the 20p single pack is only there to sugarcoat the obscene price of the 35p 3 pack.

Even though it's still 23h (20h or 22h would make more sense), this is still a great QoL improvement and is appreciated. It's not meant to be a buff.
Although, making it 20h would probably be a buff for hardcore players.

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Is the archgun status chance mod buffed? I noticed it wasn't 90% like other status-chance-only mods, but I've only just started using archguns after all the updates, and didn't know the numbers before this... on that note, could some sort of buff be applied to Dual Decurion? As it is, they're just a low-damage Imperator.

Thanks for trying with all the updates though, I'm excited for Scarlet Spear even if it turns out to be a mess... it probably wouldn't be hard to gather groups of beta-testers if you wanted, early-access is always tempting, along with that prestigious feeling of reporting/fixing problems before they hit the masses.

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4 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

6. Magus Lockdown Changes:

remove it's damage, don't remove the number of tethers...it allowed a person to play with a number of frames and still defend an objective if the dedicated "defender" fucz off
and it happens a lot
it's one of the best arcanes because it's cc not for the damage, we have enough damage without it

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10 minutes ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

Nobody should have to run a specific mod to make a warframe tolerable. That goes against the entire point of player choice, which is a main theme of this game.

Honestly as someone who's played Grendel extensively Rage is super-helpful it's not as neccesary as alot of people make it out to be on him, even with just a streamline as long as you don't overeat and sit on too many enemies for a long time he doesn't really have the energy issues a lot of people make it sound like he does. It just so happens he has little shields and a lot of HP so Rage works well on him (Especially since Nourish increases the amount of energy you get from it). I can get why someone might not enjoy playing him but he's more than just tolerable even without the mod (I still run it and suggest it though since it works so well for him).

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb [DE]Bear:

Magus Lockdown has a reputation for being the CC and Damage meta, and after some review, it is not hard to see why. There are cases where Magus Lockdown has wiped entire waves of Elite Sanctuary Onslaught without the need for a weapon or a Warframe power and that is not what we had in mind for the design of this.

Operators must suck - feels bad man

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Limbo?

Curious how OP Limbo will be in Scarlet Spear event? Is there any way to bring a balance pass for that? Would also like to see how nullifiers interact with his cataclysm so it is not completely taken out once touched.

Kuva Liches

Going melee against Lich is almost automatic shutdown due to his grab. I like the grab and preventive mechanics for the lich however, can we see a system that allows the player a chance to overcome his grab or throw perhaps a paper, rock scissors, type system where you select a key WASD if guessed correctly you can push off the lich preventing him from grabbing you and continue to melee?

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2 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

remove it's damage, don't remove the number of tethers...it allowed a person to play with a number of frames and still defend an objective if the dedicated "defender" fucz off
and it happens a lot
it's one of the best arcanes because it's cc not for the damage, we have enough damage without it

If I understood correctly Rank 5 will allow up to 10 tethers.

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Just now, EdDiesel said:

If I understood correctly Rank 5 will allow up to 10 tethers.

2x10, before it was I don't know how many exactly but ...many

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If Lockdown - the only way to do actual damage with an operator - is ruined, then it's time to look at amp buffs guys! 😄

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