Harrow: Making him a proper support

[Cataswyrden]

Harrow has an extremely strong kit but is heavily harmed by the fact that he has to get the kills to do any form of support, in a normal game since spawn rates are so low other damage frames will kill enemies far quicker than harrow and leave him with nothing. This effectively make his kit far less viable, his 1 and his 4 can still be used but, using his 2 in conjunction with his 1 is at a detriment due to the lack of enemies around him leaving him with less healing to the team. Unlike Harrow, Trinity can easily support the team without killing anything, her energy generation only requires her to find an enemy and the other team member nearby can still kill them and gain the rewards of having a Trinity in the squad. To make Harrow more viable as a proper support character it would not be very difficult. All that would be needed is when a team member in within range of Harrow's buff's influences (his 2 and 3) the teammate could also kill and do damage to the enemies to give those buffs to anyone within those areas of influence. Having this could allow for some extremely powerful setups and would also give no reason for the Harrow themselves to engage in the combat. To fix that issue you would simply have the team kills give energy or health at 1/2 the amount harrow would get. Similarly this could also be applied to his 4 for the collection of damage to translate into his critical buffs. A small change like this could easily bring Harrow on par with Trinity thus giving a proper reason to use him. I do not care exactly what is done as long as he becomes more of a team player while keeping a kit that is just as powerful while giving proper team support.

[SenorClipClop]

You are very late to this discussion.

26 minutes ago, _RazerX_ said:

in a normal game since spawn rates are so low other damage frames will kill enemies far quicker than harrow and leave him with nothing. This effectively make his kit far less viable

Like all supports, Harrow's team-player features are relatively useless when the mission is very easy. It's just the same for Oberon's healing when allies are taking no Health damage, augmented Warding Halo when damage is insignificant, and Blessing when everyone was at full Health already. This is only really noticeable in Harrow because most other support powers are passive, while Harrow's are active. Take some harder missions, jump to the frontlines and get quick on the draw.

26 minutes ago, _RazerX_ said:

you would simply have the team kills give energy or health at 1/2 the amount harrow would get

1. This would still make Harrow quite rewarded for doing nothing. Half of the Energy Thurible generates per kill would allow Harrow to basically afk.

2. The designer of Harrow has responded to asks like this with disagreement, feeling this would make the frame too passive.

 

It might help if you don't apply the typical "support" tropes to Harrow. Harrow is on the frontlines, helping the party by dishing out the hurt. I like to think of him not as a Trinity with guns, but as a Mesa with some healing. Harrow is a weapons platform with buckets of sustain to keep him performing that job. If you're struggling with Harrow, might I recommend:

• Ranged build: Strength, Range and an Opticor. Aim down hallway, watch the Energy come.
• Melee build: Sprint Speed, Duration, Warding Thurible and your best Melee weapon. Run in and thrash.

Edited March 22, 2020 by SenorClipClop

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, _RazerX_ said:

To make Harrow more viable as a proper support character it would not be very difficult. All that would be needed is when a team member in within range of Harrow's buff's influences (his 2 and 3) the teammate could also kill and do damage to the enemies to give those buffs to anyone within those areas of influence. Having this could allow for some extremely powerful setups and would also give no reason for the Harrow themselves to engage in the combat. To fix that issue you would simply have the team kills give energy or health at 1/2 the amount harrow would get. Similarly this could also be applied to his 4 for the collection of damage to translate into his critical buffs. 

While I agree with the idea, the percentage would have to be much lower than that.  I also think it might need be further limited in some way--for example, a squad mate's kills/damage only buffs himself and Harrow, but not everybody else in range. 

 

Just now, SenorClipClop said:

Like all supports, Harrow's team-player features are relatively useless when the mission is very easy. It's just the same for Oberon's healing when allies are taking no Health damage, augmented Warding Halo when damage is insignificant, and Blessing when everyone was at full Health already. This is only really noticeable in Harrow because most other support powers are passive, while Harrow's are active.

This is absolutely true but...other support frames also don't have the intensive, time-consuming feedback loop and as many limitations as Harrow does.  Consequently, it's easier to feel like I'm filling my chosen role on those frames even in situations where that role isn't all that important.   With Harrow, it's so, so easy to end up with my battery low, trying to ramp up buffs, and either the mission is done, or I've missed out on a significant amount of actual gameplay.

I don't want him to be like Trinity,, and I don't need him to be the ideal frame for anything, let alone capture missions and the like, but there's room to make him just a little more versatile, a little less downtime-heavy, and contribute more in team play.

 

[AnatharsWrath]

one of the big things that hurts harrow IMO is his slow speed. Most frames are either faster naturally or easily have room to equip something like rush. Harrow needs alot of slots for his abilties as they benefit from them all (range being the weakest as it mostly only effects his 1 -  but buffing its range helps for getting more OC for his shield easier.)

On top of his slow speed his abilities also cast slowly aside from his 1 (which travels on the ground slow enough for people to Spin-2-win through the same crowd killing them all before the wave hits them.)

Im hoping when his Prime comes out he gets a nice movement speed buff.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, AnatharsWrath said:

one of the big things that hurts harrow IMO is his slow speed. Most frames are either faster naturally or easily have room to equip something like rush. Harrow needs alot of slots for his abilties as they benefit from them all (range being the weakest as it mostly only effects his 1 -  but buffing its range helps for getting more OC for his shield easier.)

 

Yeah, well said.  I personally can't play him without extra range and fast cast, and I feel like he doesn't really have a spare utility slot.   He's supposed to be at the forefront of the battle and stay in range of his squad to do his thing, but it's hard when lots of frames are faster and spend less time casting.  Which is why I play him in Def or Mob Def more than anywhere else.

One small thing that would help  is if while he was channeling Thurible he could still sprint and didn't suffer from increased gravity in the air.

[AnatharsWrath]

another issue i forgot to mention is how certain other WF abilities block his 1 from working. enemies being grabbed by strangle dome for instance are immune to harrows 1 thus nothing gained. Frosts 4 used to do the same when it frozen enemies solid, not sure if it does still. think Vaubans suction trap or w/e its called does so as well

[Teridax68]

I think there's currently a false dichotomy that's causing unnecessary disagreement: on one hand, the criticism the OP is making is that Harrow needs to land the last hit for his Energy generation to work, but the proposed solution is to give rewards simply for activating the ability, which as mentioned is fairly passive. I think there's a possible middle ground in which Harrow can still give bonuses when assisting in kills, i.e. when hitting enemies with his weapons or his 1 whether or not he gets the last hit. That way, Harrow would still be forced to play actively, but wouldn't be as hampered by other frames "stealing" his kills, unless he's paired with some nuke frame that can clear every enemy on the map before he can touch them. It would likely also help if Harrow's abilities didn't interrupt his actions, as that's one of the main reasons why he feels like he's a step behind his team when preparing his utility.

[PrimeEnjoyer]

On 2020-03-22 at 1:51 PM, Tiltskillet said:

This is absolutely true but...other support frames also don't have the intensive, time-consuming feedback loop and as many limitations as Harrow does.  Consequently, it's easier to feel like I'm filling my chosen role on those frames even in situations where that role isn't all that important.   With Harrow, it's so, so easy to end up with my battery low, trying to ramp up buffs, and either the mission is done, or I've missed out on a significant amount of actual gameplay.

I don't want him to be like Trinity,, and I don't need him to be the ideal frame for anything, let alone capture missions and the like, but there's room to make him just a little more versatile, a little less downtime-heavy, and contribute more in team play.

I was going to make a thread on Harrow after spending some time adding forma to him, but I found this thread and the above comment pins down my thoughts pretty well.

The benefit Harrow brings to a squad requires too much ramp-up and management compared to other Warframes - Trinity, Wisp, ect. I am totally ok with a more complex Warframe, but the output needs to be worth the difficulty, and with Harrow it just isn't. It takes too long to get things rolling even in ideal missions, and if your squad has a room-clear Warframe, then there just won't be as many enemies for Harrow to interact with to get his buffs rolling. And if the mission is against the Infested, I find that his 4 is hard to ramp up because they are mostly melee and most players keep their distance so there isn't as much damage to prevent.

And yes, at higher levels things will change as enemies can't be insta-AoE'ed as easily, but again, many other Warframes don't need to wait that long to be useful.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, DestroidNGS said:

I was going to make a thread on Harrow after spending some time adding forma to him, but I found this thread and the above comment pins down my thoughts pretty well.

The benefit Harrow brings to a squad requires too much ramp-up and management compared to other Warframes - Trinity, Wisp, ect. I am totally ok with a more complex Warframe, but the output needs to be worth the difficulty, and with Harrow it just isn't. It takes too long to get things rolling even in ideal missions, and if your squad has a room-clear Warframe, then there just won't be as many enemies for Harrow to interact with to get his buffs rolling. And if the mission is against the Infested, I find that his 4 is hard to ramp up because they are mostly melee and most players keep their distance so there isn't as much damage to prevent.

And yes, at higher levels things will change as enemies can't be insta-AoE'ed as easily, but again, many other Warframes don't need to wait that long to be useful.

What do you think about his new augment?

 

[PrimeEnjoyer]

The one that lets other players proc some of his buffs? I mean, it's ok, and sort of an admission from the Devs that his kit can indeed be hard to get rolling, so here, have this band-aid. And Harrow wants all the mods he can fit, so taking one out for the augment hurts a bit. Things need to be hit by his 1 for that augment to work, right? That would happen in many places, but with one room-wipe Warframe, or even 3 aggressive squadmates, there may not be enough enemies around to chain up so the augment can do its job.

And if you can't chain, then his 2 is hard to use. And most players solve their own energy issues - or use pizzas, so 3 is questionable. And his 4 again requires a certain map-state (i.e. incoming damage to prevent), which isn't always the case for a variety of reasons. There's just too many things in Harrow's way that prevent him from getting his kit rolling.

I was just in Kura Survival with Harrow earlier today. It was sort of unique because we had two Khoras, but Harrow was nearly useless. Everything was CC'ed and energy was dropping like rain. There was no need for energy, no damage to prevent.

[Tiltskillet]

8 hours ago, DestroidNGS said:

The one that lets other players proc some of his buffs? I mean, it's ok, and sort of an admission from the Devs that his kit can indeed be hard to get rolling, so here, have this band-aid. And Harrow wants all the mods he can fit, so taking one out for the augment hurts a bit.

Yeah, I don't use it, even though I think it's potentially very powerful with the right squad.  Other than the exilus and aura slots, I don't feel like I can drop anything in content where it matters.  It'd most likely be Adaptation or Primed Vigor, but I'm not good enough to get by with only one of those without it getting sketchy.   Except if I'm slumming, but then his contributions hardly matter anyway.  Dropping energy, duration, fast cast, efficiency, strength, or range I think would be spinning my wheels at best.

 

8 hours ago, DestroidNGS said:

I was just in Kura Survival with Harrow earlier today. It was sort of unique because we had two Khoras, but Harrow was nearly useless.

Well to be fair, competently built and played double Khora might be one of the worst possible squads with him.   Then again, there aren't that  many great combos.    Supporting 3x n00bs tackling a defense mission that's over their heads--that's his niche.  😛

[PrimeEnjoyer]

10 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Yeah, I don't use it, even though I think it's potentially very powerful with the right squad.  Other than the exilus and aura slots, I don't feel like I can drop anything in content where it matters.  It'd most likely be Adaptation or Primed Vigor, but I'm not good enough to get by with only one of those without it getting sketchy.   Except if I'm slumming, but then his contributions hardly matter anyway.  Dropping energy, duration, fast cast, efficiency, strength, or range I think would be spinning my wheels at best.

Well to be fair, competently built and played double Khora might be one of the worst possible squads with him.   Then again, there aren't that  many great combos.    Supporting 3x n00bs tackling a defense mission that's over their heads--that's his niche.  😛

I wish I could drop something for Natural Talent, but then I'd feel like I am missing out on too much Strength or Duration - and like you say, I am hesitant to drop Adaptation or Vigor/Redir. But yeah, in a pre-built squad, the other 3 could drop some energy regen for other frame mods, and even reconfigure weapons to account for Harrow buffs. But like we're saying, few other frames require that level of attention to just work as intended.

What do you think about all the excess health/energy Harrow can provide? With players largely being self-sufficient - because they have no idea with whom they will be matched - many times Harrow's healing/energy is not needed. Could a portion of the excess go to overshields? What about adding "overenergy" or "overhealth"? Something like this would make his contributions matter more often, but doesn't solve the problem of there always needing things to be killed by Harrow himself.

[xxswatelitexx]

Harrow is more of an End Game Frame. 
He is similar to Nidus he doesn't work well if missions are too easy.