Titanias augment mod: dead upon arrival

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

So, there's a mod you don't need that had no effect on your gameplay whatsoever, that you can completely ignore and not use if you so choose... and you decide to post and whine about it?

The #*!% is wrong with you?

Probably  thought it was taking the place of an actual augment.   Perhaps also one of the piteous walking wounded among us who has been permanently scarred by DE's  dark history with many augments in the past.  Have some empathy, man! 😜

And of course there's always the viewpoint, "With everything I feel demands prompt attention in this game, why are they developing things I find useless and bizarre."

 

 

[Dark_Lugia]

vor 23 Stunden schrieb TheGrimCorsair:

So, there's a mod you don't need that had no effect on your gameplay whatsoever, that you can completely ignore and not use if you so choose... and you decide to post and whine about it?

The #*!% is wrong with you?

No need to get #*!%ing impolite...

So you clearly see that I was interested in that mod (I even traded it *shockface*), it is having an effect on my gameplay since it removes the wonderfull passive vacuum... and you decide to post and whine about it?

 

My main problem isn't that it disbles the vacuum, but that I can't use it while having aviator.
I was really interested in using it to make Titania more tanky, so I wondered why it doesn't stack and I thought this might be an error/bug which makes the mod useless, since I didn't see any value in the mods current state.

After I got to know that the main reason is because someone else was whining about Titanias inbuild vacuum, it makes it a bit more meaningful (even if I think the best solution to this problem would have been to look if the companion has vacuum and if it has the mod apply it to her razorwing too. This solution would also remove the need to have ironclad installed and would open up more builds, since she can already easly survive multiple hour runs without any tank/dodge/reduce mods.)

I still don't get why DE would make a mod just for this one small usage, since there are multiple other mods and frames which would need the attention much more.
But after this thread I now know that the mod works as intended, even if that makes the mod in its current form not valuable for me, if it would have been an error I might would use it.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Dark_Lugia

[TheGrimCorsair]

21 minutes ago, Dark_Lugia said:

I still don't get why DE would make a mod just for this one small usage,

Because it's a simple, direct way to implement a change that doesn't require a UI overhaul or alter the way they handle warframe passives in a manner whose ecosystem is well proven and fairly unlikely to cause a bunch of bugs to crop up while providing a feature that's probably far more widely requested than this tiny little noise-hole of a forum can probably fathom 'cause it can't conceive of a world past its own shoelaces.

Edited March 26, 2020 by TheGrimCorsair

[Dark_Lugia]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb TheGrimCorsair:

Because it's a simple, direct way to implement a change that doesn't require a UI overhaul or alter the way they handle warframe passives in a manner whose ecosystem is well proven and fairly unlikely to cause a bunch of bugs to crop up while providing a feature that's probably far more widely requested than this tiny little noise-hole of a forum can probably fathom 'cause it can't perceive of a world past its own shoelaces.

All I can say is that I have seen far, far more threads/tweets/posts about universal vacuum back before we had the vacuum within and before the passive got added to razorwing, than I have seen people complaining about the passive vacuum on razorwing.

[selig_fay]

7 hours ago, Dark_Lugia said:

All I can say is that I have seen far, far more threads/tweets/posts about universal vacuum back before we had the vacuum within and before the passive got added to razorwing, than I have seen people complaining about the passive vacuum on razorwing.

People wanted to associate razorwing with pet mods. Yes, we got a vacuum that solved a lot of problems, but people asked for a different implementation. Personally, I don’t understand why the pet radar works in archwing, while there is no vacuum.

Another point is that DE could start developing a pet in archwing system, and then transfer it to Titania. But the more they pull with it, the more problems they create for themselves. For example, I can lose all dog loyalty in just one reiljeck mission. This is because the system has many shortcomings, such as when you switch to archwing mode, your pet remembers the old location. And if the old location is destroyed, then your pet dies. But when you return, your pet is reinitialized as for a new mission. 

As long as archwing has many holes, Titania will also have this. Another point, skywing has many useful things that are inaccessible to Titania and personally I do not understand what is stopping it from being transferred?

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, zhellon said:

Personally, I don’t understand why the pet radar works in archwing, while there is no vacuum.

Oh, that one I can help with. The reason for both parts is because Archwing is a separate game mode that is bolted on and has to be triggered by gated functions such as passing through a physical gateway or by triggering an item.

Vacuum is actually completely different in Archwing because of the environments and the physics applied to loot in that mode. It pulled at objects that had no physics, applying a physics-based draw rather than a 'move to me' function that the in-game Vacuum does.

The reason that Titania did not have a Vacuum for so long was because DE needed to program in that specific method of Vacuum to Archwing mode, test it, then ensure it only applied to Titania's Razorwing, sectioning off that classification while retaining it's other archwing states and properties.

The reason that Pet Radar and other things from pets still technically works while they're deactivated during Razorwing is the same function as player-based Aura functions still work when the player is dead. They aren't gone entirely from the mission, they're merely deactivated on the nav-mesh. Radar is a function that works the same in Archwing and in the base game, so it's just retaining that function.

Some things that aren't programmed into Archwing mode still don't work for Razorwing, but auras like Radar, Corrosive Projection and so on can still function for Titania because they are allowed for in Archwing too.

[Methanoid]

On 2020-03-24 at 9:27 PM, Tyreaus said:

TBF, I think the reason is that energy orbs get pulled in if you're lacking any energy. Even just one missing energy point will suck up the orb and dump the extra 24 energy points into the void. Not great if you happen to be rationing them for ability upkeep.

_{Of course, the better fix IMO would be to backlog those extra 24 energy points so that they don't go to waste, and then stop sucking up energy orbs, but that's just me...}

they could just as easily have adjusted that so orbs are only taken when you have dropped to less than a max orb would give you, maybe even have it as an option in general options, have a vacuum orb threshold slider.

Personally i cannot even imagine the need to not want vacuum on titania, yeah she sucks up an orb if she is even 1 energy down but if you know that you can easily just avoid them till later if need be, they do stand out enough to avoid them.

[selig_fay]

23 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Oh, that one I can help with. The reason for both parts is because Archwing is a separate game mode that is bolted on and has to be triggered by gated functions such as passing through a physical gateway or by triggering an item.

Vacuum is actually completely different in Archwing because of the environments and the physics applied to loot in that mode. It pulled at objects that had no physics, applying a physics-based draw rather than a 'move to me' function that the in-game Vacuum does.

The reason that Titania did not have a Vacuum for so long was because DE needed to program in that specific method of Vacuum to Archwing mode, test it, then ensure it only applied to Titania's Razorwing, sectioning off that classification while retaining it's other archwing states and properties.

The reason that Pet Radar and other things from pets still technically works while they're deactivated during Razorwing is the same function as player-based Aura functions still work when the player is dead. They aren't gone entirely from the mission, they're merely deactivated on the nav-mesh. Radar is a function that works the same in Archwing and in the base game, so it's just retaining that function.

Some things that aren't programmed into Archwing mode still don't work for Razorwing, but auras like Radar, Corrosive Projection and so on can still function for Titania because they are allowed for in Archwing too.

All this suggests that archwing should have a setting and razorwing should use all these settings. Then these problems can go away, because if you put a vacuum in the archwing wings, then Titania will automatically use the archwing vacuum. That is, they literally need to connect razorwing to the archwing equipment and develop the archwing system, which is a more ambitious task than developing a single frame.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, zhellon said:

Then these problems can go away, because if you put a vacuum in the archwing wings, then Titania will automatically use the archwing vacuum.

I think you may have gotten confused, or that I didn't explain it correctly.

Titania's Razorwing technically always had a Vacuum. It was just Archwing Vacuum, not regular Vacuum. DE literally had to program Archwing mode with the ability to even use the regular Vacuum first, then section it off so that only Razorwing used it.

2 hours ago, zhellon said:

That is, they literally need to connect razorwing to the archwing equipment

The entire problem is not that Razorwing is different from Archwing, the problem is that Razorwing is Archwing and that entire system was originally programmed as a bolt-on for the game, not as part of the main game.

You see, there are plenty of games with a flying mode in them, heck you can look at things like Overwatch with Mercy as an example of Archwing-style movement in game. The specific difference is that the ability to 'fly' is programmed into the base game engine and is then given to specific characters as an activatable mode.

What DE did, and what they literally told us they did during the great Sharkwing bug debacles, is Archwing was not programmed into the base game. It was a literal separate game that had the same base resources for visuals and animation. It was what's commonly called a bolt-on, where they use all the same visual parts to make a game seem like part of the system, but it isn't.

Every single problem with Archwing from Sharkwing, to the Open Landscapes, to Titania's Razorwing stems from DE trying to reconcile the two separate systems into one instead of them originally having redone the base engine to allow for a flight mode within the movement system.

There is still the chance for DE to do that, in the future, but until they do there will forever be problems like the inability to place a pet or sentinel on the map while Razorwing or Open World Archwing is used. There will forever be no melee animations that work for existing melee Stances (as in, all archwing melee uses the same stance and will never use anything else unless they give arch-melee separate stances like regular melee) and we will continue to use the Melee button to eject from Open Landscape Archwing.

So in one way, you're right, they need to develop Archwing. On the other hand, the 'development' is not to make the Archwing mode better, it's to make the base game include Archwing without the kind of spaghetti code currently necessary. Which is not just a more ambitious task, it's one that could literally break the Evolution Engine (warframe's base engine) in half if done wrong.

[selig_fay]

3 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

There is still the chance for DE to do that, in the future, but until they do there will forever be problems like the inability to place a pet or sentinel on the map while Razorwing or Open World Archwing is used. There will forever be no melee animations that work for existing melee Stances (as in, all archwing melee uses the same stance and will never use anything else unless they give arch-melee separate stances like regular melee) and we will continue to use the Melee button to eject from Open Landscape Archwing.

They actually need to disable the frame's legs and animate the wings so that all normal melee animations work on Archwing. I caught a bug in razorwing where I could use normal melee and it did all the animation + it used the archmelee autoaim system. I can see that they have already disabled Titania's legs with the new Wisp animation, but this is more of a coincidence.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, zhellon said:

They actually need to disable the frame's legs and animate the wings so that all normal melee animations work on Archwing.

You catching a bug or them changing this one thing still doesn't make Archwing an integrated part of the game.

Every bug, every problem people have with it, all of it, it's all based in that one simple fact; archwing is a bolt-on to the game's engine, not a part of it coded in at base. As long as it remains so, we will continue to have problems stack on problems.

[Veknanita]

This is the reason this set of ridiculous mods exit:

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 hours ago, Veknanita said:

This is the reason this set of ridiculous mods exist:

Oh hey, it's me?

[DrivaMain]

On 2020-03-25 at 9:58 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's a mod that is literally just a replacement for another mod with the simple bonus of disabling a passive that people have been complaining about... usually those people are fans of, or are in fact, Rob from AGayGuyPlays. Because his butt is crusty over the inclusion of a vacuum on Razorwing after thousands of players asked for one and he didn't.

And while this one is bad enough, look at the ones for Zephyr and Nezha, they disable the passive and add 15% Ability Strength, literally making them worse versions of Power Drift... It's just sad.

How is he still a partner again after years of drama?

[Birdframe_Prime]

57 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

How is he still a partner again after years of drama?

Oh, because DE would rather cut off fingers than cut off partners, it generates too much of the wrong kind of drama. As I understand it there's an ASMR creator that did a cosplay as one of the frames once, hasn't put out Warframe content since, but they're still a partner.

Besides, with as much as he complains, he still puts out regular content to a rather large fanbase, which is all positive advertising for the bits he's not complaining about.

I'm still blocked from when I told him the Titania complaints were getting stale and maybe he should try a different angle to see if they could 'fix' it rather than just repeating himself whenever she was mentioned ^^

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I'm still blocked from when I told him the Titania complaints were getting stale and maybe he should try a different angle to see if they could 'fix' it rather than just repeating himself whenever she was mentioned ^^

Well, the old things are still relevant. For example, critical bugs that have existed for many years, which were mentioned more than once and were ignored, while funny bugs that could become a feature were fixed, giving rise to new bugs. Sorry, just a moment of hate.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

Well, the old things are still relevant. For example, critical bugs that have existed for many years, which were mentioned more than once and were ignored, while funny bugs that could become a feature were fixed, giving rise to new bugs. Sorry, just a moment of hate.

Old things do need fixing, and one of the particulars I've noticed is something that was pointed out in a much better fashion by one Rahetalius; it's no coincidence that DE have released a set of updates (and even rolled back something so quickly when it came to the Venari nerf) so soon after updates like Railjack and Kuva Liches didn't deliver on everything they promised to.

The thing to take away from this is that DE are completely aware of how much we want stuff and are keeping some things on the back burner to pull out as 'crowd pleasers' if anything else goes wrong. But the form those things take, when they actually pull them out? Not what people have been asking for.

For example, the crowd that wanted to take Vacuum off Titania's Razorwing? They wanted a menu toggle. Same with the people that wanted to do that with Nezha and Zephyr. What did we get? Versions of existing mods that can replace them if you specifically want to turn off the passive, meaning that you only get that function if you don't want to have any other function than the one this specific mod gives you. Want a Lightning Dash in your Exilus for Zephyr so that the Parkour Bullet Jump doesn't literally slow down a Jet Stream user? Tough, you didn't want the passive either, so you're stuck with that mod instead. Want your Exilus for just a little more range on Nezha? Tough, power strength because you didn't want to slide around.

What this means overall is that when we ask for change, we'd best have multiple ways DE can change something. Giving DE the multiple choice means that they are far less likely to choose something that's completely different. They still might, but it's less likely.

So good old famous partner over there, consistently saying one thing, over and over and over again 'We want a toggle to remove roomba-wing', he doesn't get what he wants because that's the only option he gave them. DE isn't going to remove roomba-wing, they might possibly give you the option to not use it, but never permanently and never without a cost. 'Toggle to remove it', on repeat. It got stale, it didn't change, so DE did something different.

We can't just repeat ourselves or DE leaves us on read. We need to point things out in consistently-updated and relevant terms, showing why something is bad for a new reason on the regular, even if it's all essentially the same reason. Giving options on how to improve, multiple ideas, is way more sensible than trying to hammer them with just the one. Humans, particularly creative ones, are pretty contrary when it comes to being told to do the same thing over and over.