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Tubsie

Used to really like this game

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51 minutes ago, shadowstormr said:

DE has consistently failed to deliver on the promises they made.

It's not just failure, it's deliberate deception. They said they didn't intend to increase the arcane grind, then they more than doubled it. And it's not like there was some technical issue or a lack of manpower or time or anything else forcing their hand, all they did was tweak some numbers in a system that was already set up and functional. That's not failure, that's just a lie. And not the first one either.

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12 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Keeping expectations to a minimum helps me survive anything that DE throws at me. I predicted that first Empyrean update is just “Warp in, Shoot stuff, and then warp out” and apparently I was right. Do I feel disappointed? No, because I don’t expect much. 

Look I get it, Liches are grindy, Railjack is grindy, Scarlet Spear is grindy. But we always forgot that this type of content aren’t mean to be finished in 1 session. It seems like DE’s goal for the grindy murmur grind is to discourage players to speed farm Kuva Liches, this also applies to Railjack Intrinsics and Scarlet Spear.
 

 

The bottom line is the gameplay journey via combat  and investment in the story need to be engrossing and fun and look awesome while doing it...and then the grind becomes what happens as a bonus while enjoying yourself.

This simple 3-part equation is the DNA for player satisfaction ..the backbone of Warframe’s ascent to world-wide success.

The great challenge is the F2P business model.

My personal belief is that DE did the near-impossible a few years ago...this DNA blueprint was so successful that people in large numbers started paying to reward the incredible experience and became loyal to the brand and kept paying.

Do people know how hard that is to do with so many alternatives exist in a given market?

Psychologically, people will more readily pay to avoid a negative consequence than voluntarily reward a positive experience...unless conditioned otherwise.

Many of us played/play a game that was/is free and GREAT and then voluntarily rewarded/reward DE:

1.  To look cooler

2.  To boost the speed of accomplishments, loot acquisition, and power (pace of play and time savers)

3.  Reward DE for a great product.

I think the Sentient Invasion needs large scale versions of Defense, Exterminate, and Survival for ground squads, in open world settings, to test the basic DNA that made the game a success.

Make it simple, desperate times as we do our best to hold back an enemy that just keeps coming in waves.

Reward kill numbers and grind doing what made this game fun.

 

 

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Considering Warframe new content since a few years, being bashed over and over again, starting after The Second dream, it seems to me that the people complaining about the quality of the new content (stability and grind) forgot two main details about the current game development :
 

First, we have to remember that any new content that we get is designed to be tested, by us, live, to see if it's working, technically, in a small environment, disconnected from the rest of the game, and to be adjusted - the difficulty, the fun and the grind part. Of course, it's always harder and longer than expected, because for DE, it's always easier - community wise - to adjust hard content making it easier and be thanked instead of making easy content harder and be spat on.

Secondly, at a turning point where Warframe started to become really popular, they decided to stop working on a sole project and start developing multiple part of new content in the same time. We get Fortuna, the Liches, the Railjack and the Oplink, all announced in one tennocon, but being separate project dividing the workforce. It's not possible to get them all out in time and in a stable form, so they get our in their own time when the response team is ready to have those bugs or imbalances smashed. Dividing the content of so many part is the only way they can handle the feedback and improve it live. Beyond what we see as old content (mobile defense forever) is all the upgrade, experiment and improvement we don't see to the background and server side of the game. It may not seem new for us, but it's surely new for DE staff.

The original project of connecting Fortuna, Liches, Railjack and Oplink, cannot be done without those instances being up and running beforehand, but that's indeed a terrible experience to play those part of content completely disconnected from each other and the rest of the game. But if we have faith and be patient, we may see all of it coming together, and that, then, is the big dream.

 

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5 hours ago, Radiofloyd said:

Complete besides your point, but I actually never got a bad reward from a lich. I'm just lucky like that. I also had a blast on my first Lich (the rest got progressively less interesting until I started experimenting with builds for really weak frames to be able to defeat their lich). Oh wait, I did absolutely suffer through getting requiem mods before larvlings gave those like candy. Dark times those were (specially the "guaranteed" chance from floods...)...

In my opinion — looking at the recent update picture kind of as a whole — liches turned out to be the best and most rewarding update of the set.

That’s not exactly a compliment.

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vor 11 Stunden schrieb (PS4)sweatshawp:

What does your experience have to do in this situation. And based on how active the event is it looks like no one is playing it 

not obvious????? programming quality, few bugs, very good code compared to other software manufacturers. most only want to see negative things in the thread.

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DE should be taking steps to improve and fix content before we receive it. We shouldn’t have to always been the primary method of finding major bugs that quite honestly are baffling that they weren’t caught sooner.
 

Railjack was announced with ForTuna in 2018.

Liches and squad link we’re shown in 2019.

They were not all shown at the same Tennocon.

And if working on multiple big content at the same time is lowering the quality of said content and by extent ruining the player experience. Maybe they should stop doing it then.

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Yet it is presented connected from the start, people are angry at false advertisment, if you are long here you could remember the old trailers, you could do all in what the trailer showed. Now its every Triple A trailer showing pretty graphics with action you never can do in game like this. Most are simply angry over time seeing the same mistakes repeated over and over, several bugs never fixed in years or at worse somehow come back after other hotfixes.

It is simply the long runtime by now, people noticing alot, of course there are good things aswell but the bad stuff sticks badly out lately. And yes we as PC test but it should not be expected like we are some guinepigs and should be happy only we play early, They selling you the solution for a problem they themself made basically and present it as generousity.

I love them but most simply reached there limits, and to top it all of, what good is it if we test things for them but as said never get fixed or even return due dumb programming apperently.

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17 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Considering Warframe new content since a few years, being bashed over and over again, starting after The Second dream, it seems to me that the people complaining about the quality of the new content (stability and grind) forgot two main details about the current game development :
 

First, we have to remember that any new content that we get is designed to be tested, by us, live, to see if it's working, technically, in a small environment, disconnected from the rest of the game, and to be adjusted - the difficulty, the fun and the grind part. Of course, it's always harder and longer than expected, because for DE, it's always easier - community wise - to adjust hard content making it easier and be thanked instead of making easy content harder and be spat on.

Secondly, at a turning point where Warframe started to become really popular, they decided to stop working on a sole project and start developing multiple part of new content in the same time. We get Fortuna, the Liches, the Railjack and the Oplink, all announced in one tennocon, but being separate project dividing the workforce. It's not possible to get them all out in time and in a stable form, so they get our in their own time when the response team is ready to have those bugs or imbalances smashed. Dividing the content of so many part is the only way they can handle the feedback and improve it live. Beyond what we see as old content (mobile defense forever) is all the upgrade, experiment and improvement we don't see to the background and server side of the game. It may not seem new for us, but it's surely new for DE staff.

The original project of connecting Fortuna, Liches, Railjack and Oplink, cannot be done without those instances being up and running beforehand, but that's indeed a terrible experience to play those part of content completely disconnected from each other and the rest of the game. But if we have faith and be patient, we may see all of it coming together, and that, then, is the big dream.

 

Since the reaction changes I can only say haha.

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16 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Considering Warframe new content since a few years, being bashed over and over again, starting after The Second dream, it seems to me that the people complaining about the quality of the new content (stability and grind) forgot two main details about the current game development :
 

First, we have to remember that any new content that we get is designed to be tested, by us, live, to see if it's working, technically, in a small environment, disconnected from the rest of the game, and to be adjusted - the difficulty, the fun and the grind part. Of course, it's always harder and longer than expected, because for DE, it's always easier - community wise - to adjust hard content making it easier and be thanked instead of making easy content harder and be spat on.

Secondly, at a turning point where Warframe started to become really popular, they decided to stop working on a sole project and start developing multiple part of new content in the same time. We get Fortuna, the Liches, the Railjack and the Oplink, all announced in one tennocon, but being separate project dividing the workforce. It's not possible to get them all out in time and in a stable form, so they get our in their own time when the response team is ready to have those bugs or imbalances smashed. Dividing the content of so many part is the only way they can handle the feedback and improve it live. Beyond what we see as old content (mobile defense forever) is all the upgrade, experiment and improvement we don't see to the background and server side of the game. It may not seem new for us, but it's surely new for DE staff.

The original project of connecting Fortuna, Liches, Railjack and Oplink, cannot be done without those instances being up and running beforehand, but that's indeed a terrible experience to play those part of content completely disconnected from each other and the rest of the game. But if we have faith and be patient, we may see all of it coming together, and that, then, is the big dream.

 

True.  But while all of these growing pains are happening, DE needs to have some basic aspect of what made the game successful running at all times to keep the shooter-looter going and tie it into story.  This is the real issue, I think.  My simple suggestion in the other thread was this:

“I think the Sentient Invasion needs large scale versions of Defense, Exterminate, and Survival for ground squads, in open world settings, to test the basic DNA that made the game a success.

Make it simple, desperate times as we do our best to hold back an enemy that just keeps coming in waves.

Reward kill numbers and grind doing what made this game fun.”

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

not obvious????? programming quality, few bugs, very good code compared to other software manufacturers. most only want to see negative things in the thread.

I do game design and that dosent pertain to what you said and it still dosent have to do with the thread

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26 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

for DE, it's always easier - community wise - to adjust hard content making it easier and be thanked instead of making easy content harder and be spat on

If their balance guy hasn't learned how to balance the rewards to within an order of magnitude after seven years on the job, I would suggest hiring someone else instead who is capable of learning.

26 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

at a turning point where Warframe started to become really popular, they decided to stop working on a sole project and start developing multiple part of new content in the same time. We get Fortuna, the Liches, the Railjack and the Oplink, all announced in one tennocon, but being separate project dividing the workforce

Yes, that is the mistake they made. I, too, have watched Brozime's recent rant. Pointing out the root cause does not excuse the poor results.

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5 hours ago, HexOmega111x said:

Like too many players, you try to found the fault on DE's side only. 

Why do we have non polished updates since few months? Why the community is so angry? 

The question is : why DE suddenly started to push lots of updates, one after the other, whereas before they needed months to deliver new content?

It might have something to do with the community complains about content drought? 

This community do not realise how bad they are hurting this game since few months. 

DE made the mistake to try to please eternal dissatisfied kids because their biggest fear is to see their players stop playing the game. DE can not sustain such a production rate. They tried but they can't.

The best thing they have to do is stop listening to this community and start doing things as they did before. 

Sadely, you will never see this community admit that they have their share of responsibility on this situation. 

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To begin this, I began playing Warframe in 2017, so I am basically blind when it comes to the states of the game before that time period. Input from veteran players would be very much appreciated. 

If you asked me my opinion of DE in 2018, I would have given them the highest regards possible. However, through the various updates released between then and now, my patience for the game in general has fallen greatly. The two main reasons for this is that the updates tend to be buggy or boring / needlessly grinds, many times both. Fortuna, while I don’t remember having it many bugs, suffered from a lack of enticing and varied gameplay that became apparent after the initial release. The Jovian Concord was probably the best update of these, since it didn’t have too many bugs either that I can remember, the ones that were there mainly revolved around the Ropalolyst. The disruption game mode was actually pretty fun, but the thing that killed it for me was that it lacked enticing rewards and it was essentially just a variant of Interception. Then we get to liches... oh boy. The grind behind these guys was the worst I had ever seen thus far in the game. To add to this, the grind was barely worth it, no matter how good the weapons and cosmetics are (skill based ephemera, DE?) Railjack, while the gameplay was initially fun until it got old, was not worth it because it was singlehandedly the buggiest update that ever tainted this game. Along with also being grindy, this update was nowhere near worth rushing out. These two updates, the Railjack and Kuva Liches, are especially painful because they are inherently dishonest to the true visions laid out at their conception. Liches were meant to be menaces that would continuously grow and evolve in power, and would function as nemesis’s to the Tenno. Railjack was a bit better in this respect, but not by much, since the main gameplay is there but many other important aspects, like a variety of game modes and enemy types, are missing. 
 

And now we have Scarlet Spear. This update, in my opinion, is probably the most offending since no matter how many bugs they crush with it, it will still be boring and not worth the rewards by virtue of how unappealing it is. This problem, of updates being boring, is in my opinion worse than bugs. Bugs can be fixed, but game mechanics require the very groundwork of the update and the game to be redone. This is something that needs to be done to fix the game and it’s many problems in my eyes, to fix long-standing bugs and to try and find ways to reinvigorate the core gameplay. To their credit, DE did do this and assuredly is still doing it with their Warframe revised update, which is appreciated. 
 

While I say all of this, I cannot help but feel but feel that all I’m doing is complaining, since I’m not able to give solutions to all of the problems, even most of them. But I think the best thing DE can do right now is to listen to the community and fix long-standing bugs and errors in game design. I wouldn’t at all mind a year focused around redoing the whole game by fixing these old issues and focusing on the content they had stored in their backlogs for who knows how long. To help with my lack of expertise in thinking up solutions, I was hoping you guys could help my by offering your own opinions to the matter. 
 

If DE somehow sees this, I want them to know that my admiration for them and their game is incredible, but that the only way I can see them keeping the game afloat is by tackling and prioritizing the old issues head on.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post.

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I think major problem DE had with last few major updates is horrible first experience. 

Fortuna: They released an empty world with not much to do. Fortuna is ok now but the first impression was a massive fail.

Kuva Lich: They released an untested RnG on top of RnG system that received massive backlash. They fixes it now, but thar first impression was a massive fail. 

Railjack: Oh boy where do I start. The amount of bugs it came with. Worst first impression ever. Its somewhat stable now but launch was a mess. 

Scarlet Spears: Lots of bugs, obviously wasnt tested properly, and shop is missing the items we actually want. They fixed most of the issues in 2 days but first impression failed. We are still waiting for more shop items. 

You can see the pattern here. Every major updates was premature and rushed. Which was frustrating for most of us. 

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41 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Considering Warframe new content since a few years, being bashed over and over again, starting after The Second dream, it seems to me that the people complaining about the quality of the new content (stability and grind) forgot two main details about the current game development :
 

First, we have to remember that any new content that we get is designed to be tested, by us, live, to see if it's working, technically, in a small environment, disconnected from the rest of the game, and to be adjusted - the difficulty, the fun and the grind part. Of course, it's always harder and longer than expected, because for DE, it's always easier - community wise - to adjust hard content making it easier and be thanked instead of making easy content harder and be spat on.

Secondly, at a turning point where Warframe started to become really popular, they decided to stop working on a sole project and start developing multiple part of new content in the same time. We get Fortuna, the Liches, the Railjack and the Oplink, all announced in one tennocon, but being separate project dividing the workforce. It's not possible to get them all out in time and in a stable form, so they get our in their own time when the response team is ready to have those bugs or imbalances smashed. Dividing the content of so many part is the only way they can handle the feedback and improve it live. Beyond what we see as old content (mobile defense forever) is all the upgrade, experiment and improvement we don't see to the background and server side of the game. It may not seem new for us, but it's surely new for DE staff.

The original project of connecting Fortuna, Liches, Railjack and Oplink, cannot be done without those instances being up and running beforehand, but that's indeed a terrible experience to play those part of content completely disconnected from each other and the rest of the game. But if we have faith and be patient, we may see all of it coming together, and that, then, is the big dream.

 

We have been hearing that for 3 years.

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Suree okay we give them slack for the "bugs "
but what about about the grind loop that is so boring you can fall asleep on it
do  few mobile get credz
ground strike capped at 17 to bash the fun out
space squads hoping they not get bugged on the cannon or somehwere in between

the grind is more linear than  kill 10000 wolfes and skin them.

we have so pretty stuff to play with and no nowhere to play with them Once again.

hmm but what if they pump 1 medium update but with meaningfull content that will make players actualy feel that they are doing something not just masting and in the closet.
im happy with that

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5 hours ago, HexOmega111x said:

Like too many players, you try to found the fault on DE's side only. 

Why do we have non polished updates since few months? Why the community is so angry? 

The question is : why DE suddenly started to push lots of updates, one after the other, whereas before they needed months to deliver new content?

It might have something to do with the community complains about content drought? 

This community do not realise how bad they are hurting this game since few months. 

DE made the mistake to try to please eternal dissatisfied kids because their biggest fear is to see their players stop playing the game. DE can not sustain such a production rate. They tried but they can't.

The best thing they have to do is stop listening to this community and start doing things as they did before. 

Sadely, you will never see this community admit that they have their share of responsibility on this situation. 

Sure, I agree community pressure is a problem for them, and there are players who will never be satisfied (or are only satisfied when they get to tear DE a new one).

Just like in every other game. 

However, when you don't enjoy the game (or the direction it's taking), the appropriate response is to provide feedback. If the problems persist, then the appropriate response is to stop giving them your money and attention. If DE lives and dies on daily logins, maybe they'll pull their sh*t together. If so, great. If not, how sad.

But DE's failure to keep players engaged is not the players' problem. We are not all in this together: they are literally the experts on making Warframe content and they are a long-standing live-service game dev. We're under no obligation to make their excuses for them.

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maybe its not a time to change devs? New brains, new mentality, new criativity...

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I don't like it either, I'm disapointed too. Just a friendly reminder.

I also hope they start focusing on one project at a time, with fair grind, good fun, and stability. It's not what we have, now, and we have what we have.

Maybe this is something some connected people know and hear, but I just hope we don't forget what they are doing in the shadow, because I trust DE to work hard, and we have to be thankful, for the years of fun and the crazy project Warframe would like to be.

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9 hours ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

Sure, I agree community pressure is a problem for them, and there are players who will never be satisfied (or are only satisfied when they get to tear DE a new one).

Just like in every other game. 

However, when you don't enjoy the game (or the direction it's taking), the appropriate response is to provide feedback. If the problems persist, then the appropriate response is to stop giving them your money and attention. If DE lives and dies on daily logins, maybe they'll pull their sh*t together. If so, great. If not, how sad.

But DE's failure to keep players engaged is not the players' problem. We are not all in this together: they are literally the experts on making Warframe content and they are a long-standing live-service game dev. We're under no obligation to make their excuses for them.

We are under obligation to not abuse them.

Look through the forums.

See why this topic exists.

All of you, look through the forums. Find the objectivity of people who are not having fun. It’s there, it’s important, and it’s not to be dismissed lest the pulse of the gaming experience is lost.

See how, for many posts around Scarlet Spear’s first day in particular, emotion and abuse taint almost every good point that someone has made. See the conspiracies bloom. See the judgements called.

I’ve been through these forums, and in a place we can go to give our feedback and opinions, where we can be heard by each other and potentially by the developers of Warframe, there’s been consideration and willingness to communicate and important feedback on what’s fun vs. what’s not. But there are more than a handful of posts that sicken me.

Some of them are in this very topic.

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1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

content that we get is designed to be tested, by us, live, to see if it's working, technically, in a small environment, disconnected from the rest of the game, and to be adjusted - the difficulty, the fun and the grind part.

Yes and this is a problem becouse large part of playerbase (me included) after dealing with tons of bugs and broken mechanic gets sick of the patch and stops playing it when the fix is implemented ( i.e railjack )

 

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Mostly bug fixes shoutout to newer content like Lich, RJ, and SS... .

I don't mind small bugs here and there, since warframe is quite buggy normally... .

But, bugs that prevent to proceed and finish the mission, whoa no... .

Expecting intensive bug fixes like hospitals' dedication to Covid disease... .

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It makes more sense to have 68k people testing your game than 200.  We all signed the beta agreement. And new players still have to i believe. 

Maybe if there wasnt persistent ongoing development i could relate. But this isnt some form of 50 dollar single player game with a deluxe bundle dlc that will release three mediocre content batches over the next 12 months. You guys pay more for wayyyy less. Not to mention youre not required to pay anything here. 

People that get upset about the state of things seem silly to me. At least they try and make good on their incidents most of the time. 

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1 hour ago, Torbamf said:

updates tend to be buggy or boring / needlessly grinds, many times both

dude your on pc where most of the bugs are getting fixed, along with general test of features and mission types.
DE cant make a update without something going buggy with new an old code cause of the numberous updates going through at times not act well with other bits of code.

1 hour ago, Torbamf said:

Fortuna, while I don’t remember having it many bugs, suffered from a lack of enticing and varied gameplay that became apparent after the initial release.

yet DE stated that fortuna would have its release broken up into parts due to the fact it was a big update for them with alot of new features. They released parts the number of bugs that could an did happen could be dealt with instead of having to put more work in to get them delt with.

1 hour ago, Torbamf said:

The disruption game mode was actually pretty fun, but the thing that killed it for me was that it lacked enticing rewards and it was essentially just a variant of Interception

would be better to say interception defense. the game mode itself was just a mix of old game modes with new risk an reward to it.
The amount of rewards wasn't all that great but was more fast paced than other game modes an guess what it was what the community was wanting. 
Something new that could shake up the mold of the game along with provide abit of story lore.

1 hour ago, Torbamf said:

. Then we get to liches... oh boy. The grind behind these guys was the worst I had ever seen thus far in the game. To add to this, the grind was barely worth it, no matter how good the weapons and cosmetics are (skill based ephemera, DE?)

the lich system like many other systems in the game was constantly being changed up as they are buffing an nerfing the lich content to make it more user friendly. Not everyone is like you nor shares the same interests as you.
The lich update was one of the more rng luck based at start an a large chunk of your lich rng is removed, as you don't have to stab a thrall to know what weapon you will get. all you have to do worry about is if your % is high or low an if you get the ephermera.
Its pretty much the same to the relic system.

1 hour ago, Torbamf said:

Railjack, while the gameplay was initially fun until it got old, was not worth it because it was singlehandedly the buggiest update that ever tainted this game. Along with also being grindy, this update was nowhere near worth rushing out.

you know that console players had to deal with a far more buggy railjack system than you did as PC got the early fixes to it while console had to wait almost 2 months for the vary fixes you got. so we had much more stress on this than pc ever did but guess what 😄 we still have plenty of people enjoying railjack.
 

 

1 hour ago, Torbamf said:

These two updates, the Railjack and Kuva Liches, are especially painful because they are inherently dishonest to the true visions laid out at their conception. Liches were meant to be menaces that would continuously grow and evolve in power, and would function as nemesis’s to the Tenno. Railjack was a bit better in this respect, but not by much, since the main gameplay is there but many other important aspects, like a variety of game modes and enemy types, are missing. 

railjack was teased at tennocon with fortuna an DE shared as much of the updating process as possible as yes its vastly differnt than what they wanted but it also much better as certain features that were part of the idea got changed to more fit into general game play.
As the control panel to adjust power to an from the engines, sheilds an weapons was removed as they probbilly thought of how it would affect gameplay. as if you had a random join in an they turned all power to weapons in middle of a fight that was better suited to hit an run, guess what there would be no power to engines or shields so ship would get reckted.

while the lich system originally as the kingpin system got changed up as DE might have just wanted to make the content a lil more renewable isntead of it being 1 single nemesis enemy that was consantly after you which sounds alot like stalker, G3 an zunka hunter doesnt it.
They changed it into a sytem where you could opt into or never touch without it affecting your general gameplay.


overall it sounds like your not really suited to be playing warframe if you are nitpicking at small issues of the game despite being around for couple years. as DE does listen to the community but its not like they can read every single post about issues in game as they keep moving forward with new content an thinking of how to keep an draw in new people.
while i have been around for almost 5 an been through many more changes to the game an seen it evolve into what it is now.
Warfame is not the same game an in all honestly feels like it should be called warframe 4 by now with the amount of changes that it has gone through.

 

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